jacobin777
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Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:10 am

I've noticed that beside Delta and NW to BOM, there arent any more U.S. carriers having a presence there...yes I know that there is a bunch of codesharing, but thats not direct revenue.......all the majour U.S. carriers are vying for China, but India is just as big, if not a bigger market.....

For example, I live in SFO and have friends in San Jose/Silicone Valley..there are zillions of Indians/Pakistani's who live in the area, and a number of who have companies located here or in India......

With AA for example already flying to NRT from SJC, would it not be good to market SFO or SJC-NRT-BOM or DEL flights?

I say this because its a bit difficult to travel to India/Pakistan from the west coast.....

only a couple of air carriers do this from the west coast, CX and SQ
Air India flies from LAX, but thats via Europe

anway, I think US carriers would do well if they tried to fly to other majour indian (and Pakistani) cities..

Pan Am did use to fly to Karachi, and though there was a bad hijacking incedent there back in 1986, the Pakistani govt has done a remarkable job in security there,..I feel just as safe there as I do in any other airport....

good, respectable, and intelligent comments welcome...
"Up the Irons!"
 
ssides
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:18 am

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Indian air market heavily regulated? I believe I've heard that it's very difficult for non-Indian carriers to get landing rights at Indian airports.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
avek00
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:21 am

Rights issues aside, the technical and operational limitations for a nonstop USA-India flight stifle the likelihood of an economically lucrative service by a US carrier.
Live life to the fullest.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:30 am

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Indian air market heavily regulated? I believe I've heard that it's very difficult for non-Indian carriers to get landing rights at Indian airports.

India permits upto FOUR US carriers to operate flights to India, with fifth freedom rights upon designated routes.

At the peak of US services to India in 2001, Northwest flew a DC10 daily each to Delhi and Mumbai; Delta flew an MD11 daily to Mumbai and United flew B744s twice daily to Delhi as part of its round-the-world flight.

US carriers find it very hard to compete on India routes primarily because the routes are very vulnerable to sixth freedom carriers due to geography, as well as to Air India who has a significantly lower cost base than they do.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jacobin777
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:34 am

Well..if the U.S. govt decided to stop AI's service here, 1/2 of AI's revenue would go down the drain..lol!!

Obviously, there isn't any U.S. air carrier which can do a direct flight, but if some aircarrier, such as AA has a "continue" flight to BOM or DEL from NRT, where the passenger would not have to change aircrafts, I'm sure they would be able to get enough passengers to fly that route..i'm not saying everyday, but 2-4x/week..PIA flies from ORD to KHI via MAN..and since there is no change of planes, people are liking that particular flight, in fact, thats one of the selling points I read in the local Pakistani/Indian papers there.

if DAL now flies to BOM everyday JFK-FRA-BOM from previous 4x/week, there has to be some business there, not to mention, willingness of American/Indian/Pakistani descent people willing to fly to India on a U.S. carrier..I just think the revenue potential there is huge....and its just not BOM or DEL, there is Calcutta, New Dehli, Channai (all these cities have populations from 4 1/2 to 14 million people!!!)
"Up the Irons!"
 
NWAFA
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:34 am

NWA has increased its flights out of AMS to India recently.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
jasepl
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:36 am

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Indian air market heavily regulated? I believe I've heard that it's very difficult for non-Indian carriers to get landing rights at Indian airports

The Indian market is regulated, yes. However, other American carriers do have the authority to fly to India (AA, for example) - they've just chosen not to. They don't have to fly non-stop to India though. They just aren't adventurous enough, I guess, to take advantage. AA might be the biggest airline in the world, but they don't fly anywhere between Switzerland and Hong Kong - missing out on a major chunk of the world's market.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:40 am

if DAL now flies to BOM everyday JFK-FRA-BOM from previous 4x/week, there has to be some business there

Delta flies to Mumbai TWICE DAILY this winter, once each via Frankfurt and Paris.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
A350
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:52 am

The solution: at least one US carrier needs to buy the HGW A380 in the future Big grin

A350
 
roseflyer
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:57 am

It would be nice to see a more direct flight from the west coast to India. Right now the quickest routing is on Air Canada. A NRT-India service from either UA or NW would be nice, but unfortunately the Himalayas play a role. A nonstop NRT-DEL flight would have added flight time, which is lost money. There was a reason that UA routed its around the world flights through HKG instead of NRT where they have more of a presence. I am not sure if it was to do with freedom rights, or that HKG was more geographically optimal for the service.

A 747 flight with weight restrictions from ORD would be very convenient for passengers, but only a super long range plane can make it from the west coast. Only time will tell if a carrier can make the route profitable nonstop though. European carriers like LH have a huge share of the market. One stops from US carriers can't compete like LH due to the fact that LH has feed from many US and European destinations to fill all of its India flights. The few NW and DL flights are probably as much as we can get for US carriers to go to India through Europe. Maybe AA, but doubtfully UA due to the strong alliance with LH which is a European leader to India.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
B747-437B
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:09 am

It would be nice to see a more direct flight from the west coast to India. Right now the quickest routing is on Air Canada

No. The quickest routing is Air India's direct service from Los Angeles to Mumbai via Frankfurt.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
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N328KF
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:22 am

A350:

You're on crack. Ain't happening as much as you might wish it to be so. I don't even think they want it, even if you think they need it because it might look pretty or whatever.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
A350
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:35 am


You're on crack. Ain't happening as much as you might wish it to be so. I don't even think they want it, even if you think they need it because it might look pretty or whatever.

It's not because it might look pretty, it's simply the future HGW A380 is the only way I see to establish a nonstop connection between the US and India at an competitive price.

Of course, you can also use the 772LR or the A345, but that's going to be expensive, and I'm sure you will be able to fill one A380 every day.

A350
 
jacobin777
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:04 am

RoseFlyer....what's interesting is that PK flies from ISB-PEK-NRT (PK-852) and that is most probably via the K2 mountain range (according to the Great Circle Mapper) ...which is almost as treacherous as the Himalayan range.....so I'm not sure if mountains play a large role (i could be wrong though), and as
B747-437B stated, DAL flies to BOM 2x/daily (thats shocking for me to see)..so the market is there....

as some of the posts state here, AA and UA already have rights to fly to India, so it would not be a big thing for them to start adding flights there, they can definitely cater to the Indian/Pakistani customer....the air carriers need to be a little bit more creative and see how untapped the Indian (and Pakistan) market is..

as an example, earlier this year, I flew SFO-JFK-DXB-KHI...to me, that was a pain in the bum, and I would have chosen AA all the way, but I had to fly on EK (JFK-DXB-KHI) also..next time, I plan on flying SFO-NRT via AA, then NRT-KHI via PK.....i'm sure i'm just one example of a zillion who have this problem from the Left Coast.

I think they would even do ok if they flew even to Middle East Countries....there are a lot of U.S. citizens (not of middle eastern descent) who live/travel/work to/in the middle east countries.....

"Up the Irons!"
 
jaysit
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:08 am

Why does everyone assume that a nonstop from the US is the only way to go?

Northwest make a cool buck through their hub in AMS flying ancient DC-10s that are almost always packed to the rafters.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:14 am

Jaysit..my point exactly, I wasn't even saying to travel non-stop....nonpstop to India would be a good selling point, but with flights from the left coast to India via NRT, etc. and with a HUGE indian/pakistani (desi) here, I think there is a lot of potential....

"Up the Irons!"
 
texdravid
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:05 am

I am hardly suprised that AA has rights that they choose not to execute with regards to travel to India.

They may be the world's largest airline, but they hardly have a international reach in Asia, the pacific islands or deep into Europe like UA or NW does.
Plus they don't have the aircraft to do it either.

They are content flying MD-80's from DFW, ripping off DFW people with high fares and the Wright amendment, and are as customer friendly as a hungry polar bear.

AA touching down in Mumbai will happen when it snows in Mumbai.

Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:13 am

It's not because it might look pretty, it's simply the future HGW A380 is the only way I see to establish a nonstop connection between the US and India at an competitive price.

Then you are on crack  Big grin

Of course, you can also use the 772LR or the A345, but that's going to be expensive, and I'm sure you will be able to fill one A380 every day.

There is zero demand for the A380 in North America.... AA, CO, DL, UA... all opperate the 772ER and would be able to integrate the 772LR much more efficently. And what about the 7E7? It will be capable of serving India-North American non-stops.

The capacity argument is void. American flyers prefer flying with more options than through a single hub. Why fly just LAX-DEL with the A380 when you could opperate DEN/LAX/ORD/ATL/IAH-DEL with the 7E7.


---

Edit... and just checked.. but the 772ER can already do ORD-DEL

[Edited 2004-12-03 01:15:49]
 
roseflyer
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:17 am

Sorry, you are right about Air India. Although the Air Canada flight through Toronto might have a short flight time, Air India beats them by 35 minutes in total travel time.

The bad thing about traveling through Asia is that none of the west coast flights connect well with the flights from Japan to India. Connections through Europe are a lot easier. A nonstop would be incredibly convenient from the US. Transitting through Europe or Asia is miserable. Two 6-12 hour flights is a lot nicer then domestic and a longhaul international flight.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
m404
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:32 am

To put it simply.

How many international carriers does India have to send to U.S.?
How many international carriers does the U.S. have to send to India?

Do you see the problem?

This is aside the physical facts of increased distances and the presences of overseas hubs to jump from.

[Edited 2004-12-03 01:35:02]
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
mtnmanmakalu
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:53 am


........Because working the flights to and from India is HELL!!!!!

I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
jacobin777
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:19 am

There really isn't any good way to get to India/Pakistan from the Left coast, its as simple as that.....going westbound would yield approximately 9609 mi (from Great Circle Mapper) that would be SJC-NRT-PEK-ISB-KHI (with one plane change) and going eastbound would be 9527 mi, and that would be SFO-LHR-DXB-KHI (with two plane changes) or SFO-ORD-MAN-KHI would be 9694 mi with one plane change..hence, really no difference....

that being said, the 777-200LR would be easily be able to go to LAX-BOM nonstop (according to Boeing's specs)

the 777-200ER (which U.S. air carriers have anway) can go nonstop
JFK-BOM , JFK-DEL, JFK-KHI...ect.(once again, according to Boeing's specs).....


http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/777technical.html
"Up the Irons!"
 
jaysit
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:21 am

........Because working the flights to and from India is HELL!!!!!

Why?

You have 300 relatively sleepy passengers who are exhausted after 3 hours of long lines at 2 am, most of whom are teetotallers, and just happy to get a vegetarian meal inflight.

If Singapore Airlines and Air India and BA can provide good service at 2 am to 300 tired and grateful passengers, I don't see why American FAs are a special breed apart.

Or maybe I do. Its the reason why I avoid American carriers on international routes like the plague.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:34 am

Maybe they can get some oriental and desi FA's for the flight........i don't know if it would be an improvement, oh wait...over the normal American air carrier FA's, yes it would..... Laugh out loud
"Up the Irons!"
 
jasepl
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:45 am

NRT-India service from either UA or NW would be nice, but unfortunately the Himalayas play a role...

Why? JL manage to do NRT-DEL just fine.


DAL flies to BOM 2x/daily (thats shocking for me to see)..so the market is there....

And NW fly 2 x daily MSP-AMS-BOM as well. Add to that AI's approximately 4 x daily India-USA flights.


Maybe they can get some oriental and desi FA's for the flight........i don't know if it would be an improvement, oh wait...over the normal American air carrier FA's, yes it would.....

That's exactly what DL do. They've got a full complement of Indian crew for the CDG-BOM-CDG (and I assume the FRA-BOM-FRA) legs.
 
JoFMO
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:55 am

I don't see any reason why UA doesn't fly with one their 744 nonstop to DEL. AC can do it from YYZ at most conditions. So UA should be able to do it from ORD with an 744 without problem, it's just 400km more. From SFO it's 800km more than from YYZ.
UA aven already had announced to fly nonstop ORD-DEL prior 9/11, but it never materielized.

So is it really impossible for an 744 to fly 12403km from SFO to DEL? An QF 744ER should make it, but an UA 744?

But all this routes requires flying over the pole, so it might be a little bit more difficult for the twin jet operators to cross the pole and the Himalaya.

AC published a map with possible future long range destinations. YVR is one of them.
 
burnsie28
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:08 pm

I dont think AA can fly NRT-BOM or DEL because I dont think they have the rights, and they dont have any rights anywhere else, so wouldnt they have to fly it non-stop if they wanted to go to India?
 
United Airline
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:24 pm

UA announced ORD-DEL nonstop before 9.11 but the plan was put on hold indefinitely since 9.11.

Wonder if they will start this route in the future..... but don't expect this to happen anytime soon
 
mrniji
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:13 pm

On of the reasons is that many US carriers need to sort out their finances first. The over-competition, through relatively unregulated liberalism, has lead to this situation - a good reason why India should only sustainably liberalize. We should learn from this...

And, as Jay puts it, I avoid US carriers since their customer service etc. is horrible.. AI and Asian carriers offer a far superior product with cheaper prices..
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Namaskar
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:55 pm

Jacobin777,

There are several options from the West Coast to India with relatively short layovers on CX, CI, OZ and KE. I know many forum members are fans neither of KE or CI, but my friends who have taken at least KE to Mumbai from SFO and LAX have raved about the service, the hassle-free Incheon Airport, and quick connections. Fares on all of these carriers are competitive, as I know from Indian newspapers such as India West.

Here are some timetable examples. Note these options give a choice to members of OW, Star Alliance and SkyTeam!:

CX
LAX-HKG 00.15 - 7.40+1
HKG-DEL 09.30 - 13.15
DEL-HKG 14.35 - 22.00
HKG-LAX 23.25 - 19.55

KE
SFO-ICN 13.35 - 19.20
ICN-BOM 20.35 - 02.30+1
BOM-ICN 04.30 - 15.10
ICN-SFO 18.25 - 11.45

CI
LAX-TPE 16.40 - 12.00
TPE-DEL 16.20 - 21.15
DEL-TPE 22.30 - 07.35+1
TPE-LAX 14.00 - 20.35

OZ
SFO-ICN 01.00 - 06.45+1
ICN-DEL 12.40 - 18.40
DEL-ICN 20.00 - 05.50+1
ICN-SFO 19.40 - 12.50 (Long layover!)
 
jacobin777
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:18 am

Jasepl...its interesting they do that....but thats the smart thing to do, actually, if its a continuing flight from the US, then the whole flight should be that way, if not then its no big deal..


"AA touching down in Mumbai will happen when it snows in Mumbai."..i've seen stranger things....and with such a huge potentinal market, I can see them servicing other cities.....

Yes, 9/11 did change many things, but its well known that UA has good profits/service on their international flights...the fact they were planning on servicing ORD-DEL prior to 9/11 proves that point...

"But all this routes requires flying over the pole, so it might be a little bit more difficult for the twin jet operators to cross the pole and the Himalaya."


As a previous post stated, the Himalaya's aren't a problem and UA's 744's wouldn't be a problem either.........


Namaskar...true, though a few are part of OW, Star Alliance or SkyTeam....and I've heard good things about CX and Asiana, it would still be nice to see US air carriers go to India/Pakistan/Middle East..the revenue could potentially be huge....also, it would give the passengers the ability to choose..


Mr. Niji is correct, the US air carriers do need to sort out their finances first, but at 1.5 billion people(take both India and Pakistan) and rising....thats a HUGE market..the middle class alone is larger than the entire population of the United States!!
"Up the Irons!"
 
lh477
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:26 am

Air Canada flies 343 or 345.....AC no longer has the 744 in thier fleet
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:06 am

interesting that UA wants to start this route to India....

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1858497/

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/956172.cms
"Up the Irons!"
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:33 am

The solution: at least one US carrier needs to buy the HGW A380 in the future Big grin

The what?

Edit... and just checked.. but the 772ER can already do ORD-DEL

No, not really it can't. There are the ever present ETOPS regulations preventing them from taking a profitable route.

United could do it ok with a 747-400, in fact such service was announced. 2001 killed it, and they've not decided to again since.

I think it would be the perfect route for them to rack up money on.

N
 
jacobin777
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:55 am

I think the 777-200LR will be able to do it profitably, and I wouldn't be surprised if PK does ORD-KHI nonstop (they do have a couple of the 200LR's on order)

right now, PK's route is ORD-MAN-KHI.....


http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=ord-man-khi&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=mi&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=


assume that MAN is removed

"Up the Irons!"
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:30 am

and just checked.. but the 772ER can already do ORD-DEL

the 777-200ER (which U.S. air carriers have anway) can go nonstop JFK-BOM , JFK-DEL, JFK-KHI...ect.(once again, according to Boeing's specs).




Hate to say it... but at this point, no it can't
(for all practical purposes anyways)  Crying
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jacobin777
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RE: Why Not More US Carriers In India?

Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:29 am

but as I said, the -200LR would be able to do it!
"Up the Irons!"

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