dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:02 am

Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:19 pm

Hi,

I am not sure if this has been discussed before, but i was wondering why Pan Am of all airlines was restarted, surly Braniff would have been a better option, they had more aircraft so why didn't they stay alive. Also, i have seen many pics of models of Concorde in Braniff colours, and i was wondering if they would have aquired concorde or would the orders have fallen through like many others.

Thanks
Mike
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:25 pm

BN did restart, twice. The only time they had any chance at all was when they had A320s painted in a scheme that can best be described as an ugly version of the newer HP scheme.


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Also, it is not the aircraft that restarted the airline, it was the name.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:26 pm

I understand, but when an airline goes under, can't they sell aircraft or lease aircraft out to try and get back on their feet.
 
schooner
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 10:29 pm

RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:07 pm

What if the aircraft they had were leased off somebody else........
Untouched and Alive
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:32 pm

Actually Braniff came back three times! Let them rest in peace, stop beating the dead horse.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:02 am

RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:41 pm

As i never saw Braniff, i can't comment a lot, but i would have loved to see it.
 
7e72004
Posts: 3440
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:57 am

I think Eastern should be "restarted," There has only been on incarnation of them  Smile
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:10 am

Eastern restart would be cool, although DL, US and Airtran might have a little something to say on the subject, along with CO, and some others.

Let Braniff lie dead, RIP. 3 times at the trough is enough. I flew them a few times out of DFW to MSP back in the late 70's and early 80's (when the REAL Braniff was around) and they were a fine airline.
One Nation Under God
 
WesternA318
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:20 am

Braniff had orders for Concorde, but they fell through and all BN had in terms of Concorde service was a through-plane service for Air France from CDG-IAD-DFW, and with BA on LHR-JFK-DFW. No Concorde ever had Braniff totles or colors on it in reality, but the models sure are swee. Just like the A380 models.

Now, instead of BN or PA restarting, why not have Western, Eastern, AND TWA restart under one parent company to kepp them within the same family of "vintage" airlines?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
7e72004
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:23 am

I like that...you could call it "Vintage Air" and its subsidiarys  Big thumbs up
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
FLY2LIM
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:27 am

So many romantics! You feel that just because the side of the plane says "Braniff" that people are going to flock to it and start flying it. It takes too much money to establish a network that will sustain an airline, and I'm no economist. Also, their route network would be so small. And there are so many flyers now who are tied up in their airline's ff programs. At this point, no upstart could compete, unless you had massive financial backing like B6. If that was the case, it would be a wiser marketing option to start fresh, like Jet Blue, than to attach to your airline the name of a failed carrier or, in the case of Braniff, a thrice failed carrier.
I flew the real Braniff in the late 70s and early 80s. They were ok. I loved the leather seats in coach and those DC-8s were awesome planes. However, I also know they were very poorly managed and they set themselves up for failure. Of course, they didn't know then what we know now. Things were very different.
FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:33 am

Very true FLY2LIM, I only remember the 727's in the god-awful "ultra' scheme. Nothing like the Flying Colors of yesterday. And those A320's were hideous. Good thing HP gave them a good home.

As far as vintage Air is concerned: (LOL).

Vintage Air
subsidiaries:

Western Mk. II (Hubs: LAX, SLC)
TWA Mk. II (Hubs: LAX, STL, JFK)
Eastern Mk. II (Hubs: JFK, MIA, MCI)

Could you imagine the route map? Or gates at LAX, MIA or JFK?  Big thumbs up
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7e72004
Posts: 3440
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:15 am

RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:35 am

I wish i could find it but i remember drawing a picture of what i think the Eastern jet would look like...just slap the big "symbol" (whatever it was *lol*) on the tail and have a grey plane with a single blue strip across the body with "Eastern" in big letters  Big thumbs up
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
AlekToronto
Posts: 321
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:43 am

I think the age of brand recognition is dead. Average people (not the members here) do not care who they fly with..PRICE is king for 99 percent of people. That golden age of PAN AM 747's all over the world and Braniff with their crazy Pucci uniforms and bubble hats is way over..pretty soon nobody (except us) will remember it ever happened. Most of my pals have no idea what/who Braniff is/was??
My answer is why bother? If you are crazy enough to start an airline these days just start from scratch...surprised nobody has started CHEAP AIRLINES INC yet???
cheers
Alek
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:49 am

My answer is why bother? If you are crazy enough to start an airline these days just start from scratch...surprised nobody has started CHEAP AIRLINES INC yet???

Lets try for "Cheap Seats" !  Smile
One Nation Under God
 
7e72004
Posts: 3440
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:49 am

I prefer "Cheapo Air."  Big thumbs up
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
WesternA318
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:26 am

Cheapo Air, huh? Wasnt that PeoplExpress? Oh wait, how about the "No Frills airlines' from the movie airplane! ? At least we get to slide down on the baggae carousel...
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
7e72004
Posts: 3440
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:28 am

This is starting to look like the "Airplane" thread that i started a long time ago  Big thumbs up
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4477
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:36 am

"the red zone is for loading and unloading..."
"Listen Betty, dont start with your white zone S**t again..."
A classic!
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AZjetgeek
Posts: 229
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:51 am

Braniff should R.I.P. I believe that a major reason why the three attempts to save it failed was the "ghost" of Harding Lawrence. Or should I say, the "curse"?

WesternA318, I genuinely like your suggestion of "Vintage Air", bringing back TWA, Western and Eastern under one umbrella carrier with subsidiaries. I do have some alternate suggestions as to the hubs:

Western - PHX and DFW
TWA - STL and PHL
Eastern - JFK and CLT

Although the old Western was based in Los Angeles, and had a major presence at LAX, I believe there is more potential at PHX. Consider that JetBlue and WestJet have come in here and Alaska is expanding its service to Sky Harbor. During the 60's and 70's, Western played a prominent role in air travel out of the old terminal 1.

As an alternate to PHX, I would suggest SFO or SNA so that Western would have a west coast base.

Given the financial pickle US is in, both PHL and CLT are ripe for the picking. Thus, my suggestion of putting a hub for TWA at PHL and a hub for Eastern at CLT.
Long live the RJ!
 
WesternA318
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:59 am

AZjetgeek,

The only reason I didnt put ANY airline in PHX is that the city is almost evenly split between HP and WN. I don't want to screw up HP's system. Western would be suited in SLC and LAX to take a bloody stab at DL (which is WHY im thinking of basing the majority of flights out of SLC) and TWA would be best suited in STL to retake the hub after AA slowly pulls out. Eastern I would let loose with a mini-city in ATL to help Airtran along AND to take yet another stab at DL, as well as in MCO.
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FlyGuyClt
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:29 am

BRANIFF?? Only if I get my seniority back !

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:00 am

This is amazing, it just shows you what people think.
 
srbmod
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:53 am

Some of these clipped wings have names that are sullied by reputation.

Braniff: The sudden shutdown of Braniff mk.1 was a major thing, as it was the first big airline to suffer as a result of Deregulation. The original Braniff had a style and substance that cannot be economically duplicated in the current climate.

Eastern: One simple acronym to sum this one up. WHEAL (We Hate Eastern Airlines). Before Untied, there was WHEAL, plus the airline suffered a black eye from the IAM strike and from the Lorenzo years, which really gave the name a bad image.

Pan Am: When most people think of Pan Am, the first thing that that comes to mind is the old days of flying, when flying was a big deal, and flying Pan Am to Europe or Asia or South America. Every attempt at restarting Pan Am has sullied the classic name of Pan Am, so it needs to remain buried.

TWA: With AMR owning the name and associated trademarks, unless they decide to let the copyrights revert to the public domain (it takes over 20 years of the name and marks not being used for this to occur).

Western: See above, but substitute Delta for AMR.
 
N1120A
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:20 am

>BRANIFF?? Only if I get my seniority back !<

Have you been an F/A at every airline in the world now?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy You are super flight attendant man Flyguyclt.

Did you like your Halston designed uniform?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
airgeek12
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:02 am

RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:32 am

I think what your referring to is this PanAm shuttle thing, .

Yea- I was wondering about that too. Are they trying to make some sort of revival or something?!?!?!

*joe*
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:47 am

Just for sake of conversation (replies #10 and #13 hit the nail on the head), what about restarting a defunct airline that was bought out-but had a lot of public goodwill-such as PSA or Piedmont or AirCal?

Oh wait. That was tried with National....

Three times!!!

and they all failed.

Never mind.

The original National:


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and then the three failed reincarnations:


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WesternA318
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:58 am

The name to Western Airlines has slipped back into the public domain, the only thing DL now owns is the images, logos etc. etc. of the original Western. Its how F9 got started too.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
JayDavis
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:09 pm

RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:12 pm

I don't know what you'd want to call it, maybe Muse Air?
We've got about 24 gates that are soon to be up for grabs at DFW Airport.
That would help get a new airline started, just fine. An almost completely empty terminal...........
 
WesternA318
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:18 pm

I got it, I got it,

how about....Trans Texas?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:32 pm

i never knew that National Started that far back
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:59 am

I was also wondering, has Pan Am decided if they are starting again, cos their site is still there.

http://www.flypanam.com
 
FlyGuyClt
Posts: 1579
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:57 am

Reply #24.

Only worked for 3 .

Florida Express Airlines. 1987
Merged with,
Braniff Part 2. 1988-1989.
NWA 1990 to present.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
WesternA318
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:02 pm

Flyguyclt,

I have flown on Florida Express many a time, and I LOVED the BAC1-11s! Then Braniff II bought them, at least the 1-11's were original Braniff machines too, lol. Wasn't Gordon Linkon from Frontier the president?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:10 pm

I think he was, i remember reading something about him.
 
ryanair
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:25 pm

With reference to flypanam.com

Obviously Pan AmI is long dead. Born, lived, died, RIP.

In 1996 Pan Am II was born. Bought out by Carnival, went bust. Pan Am III bought the assets, but new owners and no continued trade.

Pan Am III started a regional subsidiary called Boston Maine (Branded Clipper Connection). Pan Am III then was shut down by the owners because they stepped on the wrong side of industrial relations law, but Boston Maine continues at present. Hence flypanam.com is still there.

This little more than an air taxi operator is nothing in any way to do with Pan American World Airways!
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:02 am

RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Mon Dec 06, 2004 8:02 am

Yes, that is obvious because Pan American Worlds Airways would fly the globe, but this was just Pan American Clipper Connection
 
britmex
Posts: 199
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:24 am

Most of the failures of resurrected airlines are due to the fact that many of them are motivated by romantics or naive people who think passengers may be lured by a famous name.

However an "airline resurrection" can be succesful if a correct business plan is used. In my own experience, my father was a purser of the defunct AeroMexico (Aeronaves de Mèxico sa d CV), however only a few weeks passed when a group of former employees with the help of a government bank (the Mexican equivalent to the National Trust, sort of) started operations with a much downsized fleet. Some 9`s were used and all DC-10`s but only a handful of destinations were served.
The market was there and after some months a new airline was starting operations in October 1 , 1988. transatlantic flights were reactivated the next year and the new airline , Aerovias de Mexico kept the same commercial name, AeroMexico but a slightly different corporate image was used. The new colours (Indigo blue and terracotta) were chosen since those were the ones that Aeronves de Mexico used before it was nationalized in 1960. An emphasis on reliability was introduced as new corporate culture and that is why we are trained to be the "world`s most on-time airline".

So far the "new" AeroMexico has kept some traditions alive, like the Aztec Knight, but with a new image. However in our small airline museum we keep alive AM`s past heritage as the "official airline of Mexico" .

britmex

ps i`m also a romantic...I really miss TWA, Pan Am, Eastern, Western, Swissair, Sabena, AeroPeru, and....should I say more? At least the Speedbird is still alive
Aeromexico, la linea aerea que va para arriba
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:56 am

Western:

Yes, Gordon was there and he was former Frontier as well as Midway. Florida Express was a fun airline. We did what we could with what we had to work with. Most of the BAC 1-11's were original BN. However some came from Mohawk/Allegheny/USAir and then some others came from Air Wisconsin, Cascade and Pacific Express. The -400's that we had were from American, and Dan Air London. At our peak we had 25 paid for airplanes with 115 flight attendants on the pay role.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
WesternA318
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:22 am

Wow, flyguyclt, sounds awesome!
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
sccutler
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:28 pm

One comment on post way up there-

while no Concorde was ever painted in BN colors, BN is the only US carrier ever to have operated the Concorde in scheduled service. The flights from DC to DFW were op'd be BN crews entirely. Retired BN captain is in my flying club, showed us a bunch of stuff from his Concorde training. Cool.

Strange but true.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4477
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:35 am

That can't be a strange as when Braniff opened up 16 new cities on December 12, 1980. THAT is corporate suicide right there. No wonder they crashed and burned
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Ken777
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:43 am

The first flight I ever took on a jet was on Braniff - and the 707 was making its maiden commercial flight. Fond memories of that one.

The first trip to Australia was on a Pan Am 707 in 1973 and it was a more comfortable flight than any cattle car flight I have taken since. Even the food was better than most meals in J that I take these days.

As for bringing them back, the only name for the holding company I can think of is Broke Airways.
 
dl021
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:38 am

Dogfighter...National was the first scheduled airline and begun at the site of the St.Petersburg City Airport. THere is a plaque there marking the event.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4477
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RE: Braniff Or Pan Am Restarting

Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:17 am

I still have to go visit that place, and Dinner Key, to see the sign tht marks the first HQ of Pan American World Airways...and yet another sojourn to JFK to see my beloved TWA Flight Center where I spent 8 very killer years.
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