jasepl
Posts: 3499
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CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:21 pm

Following the hearing held on 11 and 12 November to decide how to allocate the 21 frequencies newly available for UK airlines to serve various points in India, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has announced that it considers its statutory duties in this case are best served by awarding:

  • seven services to British Airways, four of which are to be operated on the Chennai (Madras) route and three to Bangalore;

  • four services to British Midland Airways to be operated on the Mumbai (Bombay) route; and

  • ten services to Virgin Atlantic, seven of which are to be used on the Delhi route and three on Mumbai.


  • The frequencies, which become available in three tranches from Winter 2004, were secured under the latest bilateral air services agreement between the Governments of the UK and India, signed in September. British Airways currently operate all 19 services per week available to UK airlines under the terms of the previous agreement between the two countries. Following this decision, the distribution of rights will be:

    BA - Current 19, New 7, Total 26
    BD - Current 0 New, 4 Total 4
    VS - Current 0, New 10, Total 10

    The CAA has decided to award the rights in this order:

    Winter 2004:
    Seven rights to operate to Delhi awarded to Virgin.

    Summer 2005:
    Four rights to operate to Mumbai awarded to BM
    Three rights to operate to Mumbai awarded to Virgin

    Winter 2005:
    Four rights to operate to Chennai awarded to BA
    Three rights to operate to Bangalore awarded to BA

    http://www.caa.co.uk

    [Edited 2004-12-03 11:23:05]
     
    scotron11
    Posts: 1191
    Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:28 pm

    I've read the report and it seems a pretty fair decision. I think each carrier probably got what they wanted.
     
    jasepl
    Posts: 3499
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:35 pm

    Agree... This is what the final picture will look like:

    BA: 7x Bombay, 7x Madras, 7x Delhi, 2(+1)x Calcutta, 3x Bangalore
    VS: 3x Bombay, 7x Delhi
    BD: 4x Bombay

    I was just wondering though, why do they decide which carrier can fly where? Couldn't they just allocate the frequencies and let the airlines decide where they wanted to fly?
     
    mrniji
    Posts: 5382
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:49 pm

    Funny BA is the latest of all players to receive the right.. moreover, it looks loke BOM will be very heavily competed by BA, BD, VS and AI... - AI should serve smaller cities like BLR, COK, HYD etc..
    "The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
     
    HB-IWC
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:50 pm

    The decision seems to be a blow to VS, which has already announced daily operations to BOM. Schedules have been loaded in the CRS and tickets are being sold as we speak. I can't imagine they're going to be happyu with this outcome.

     
    Skymonster
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:51 pm

    I bet BMI will be overjoyed with that - NOT! Four flights to India, move an A330 to LHR and what does it do for the other three days?

    Andy
    There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
     
    scotron11
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:52 pm

    Pretty much what the report said was the VS LHR-DEL would be direct competition with BA. They have left it to VS & BM to work out which days each will fly to BOM.

    I guess they figure DEL & BOM are very well served with this allocation and I liked the fact they agreed on BA's proposal for Bangalore with 3x 744.

    Sure beats having to connect thru FRA!
     
    HB-IWC
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:56 pm

    BA: 7x Bombay, 7x Madras, 7x Delhi, 2(+1)x Calcutta, 3x Bangalore

    BA currently has twice weekly operations into MAA, so after the increase they will be flying there six times weekly rather than daily. Note that the above list shows 27 weekly frequencies, while BA will only be flying 26 flights.

     
    gkirk
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:17 pm

    Are the BMI slots for flights from LHR or MAN?
    When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
     
    scotron11
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:32 pm

    BMI slots are for LHR. Reuters is reporting that VS is going to appeal the decision to only grant them 3x weekly LHR-BOM and none to BLR. Let the fun begin!
     
    gkirk
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:36 pm

    Dont think BMI will shift an A330 from MAN just for 4 weekly flights to BOM then
    When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
     
    AIR MALTA
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:37 pm

    Virgin is always not happy about anything and appealing all the time. They should be satisfied with what they had. BMI had only 4 slots.
    Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
     
    mrniji
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:38 pm

    Let the fun begin!

    That will indeed be a great time of amusement  Big thumbs up
    "The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
     
    scotron11
    Posts: 1191
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:40 pm

    How many A330's does BMI have? I guess no chance of them getting a T7 somewhere, huh? (Maybe one of their alliance partners,perhaps)!
     
    BestWestern
    Posts: 7202
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:49 pm

    Latest news

    Virgin is to appeal their three weekly to BOM... Typical.

    BMI to seek additional aircraft - now let me see who they may code share with....ummm Virgin...


    You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
     
    HB-IWC
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:49 pm

    Reuters is reporting that VS is going to appeal the decision to only grant them 3x weekly LHR-BOM and none to BLR. Let the fun begin!

    As I stated before, flights to BOM have been announced, loaded and are being sold as we speak, so this appeal comes as no surprise.

     
    BestWestern
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:52 pm

    It also sounds like the CAA are basically saying to BD and VS... merge for gods sake, just get on with it!
    You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
     
    BestWestern
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:54 pm

    BD could do BOM x 4 weekly and Maldives x 3 weekly
    You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
     
    xpat
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:55 pm

    Does this mean fares to India will finally become cheaper?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
    The only thing we have to fear is the sky falling on our heads. -Asterix
     
    scotron11
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:59 pm

    A question about schedules:

    BMI proposes LHR-BOM Dep 1445 Arr 0350 #1
    BOM-LHR Dep 0600 Arr 1130

    VS proposes LHR-BOM Dep 2100 Arr 1035 #1
    BOM-LHR Dep 1445 Arr 2200

    Does BMI currently have available A330's to meet the above schedule or will they have to acquire more? Or, will they shut down some of their transatlantic from MAN to free up equipment?
     
    gkirk
    Posts: 23349
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:02 pm

    Actually think they've already said somewhere that more a/c will be acquired for LHR flights. Cant remember where I read that though
    When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
     
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    AirIndia
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:15 pm

    this is good news that some action has happened and in relatively quick time. strange that BD only got BOM. They would have been happy with a couple to BLR. I guess even their India office is in Bangalore.?

    Guru
     
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    HAWK21M
    Posts: 29929
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:33 pm

    It would be nice to see BD & Virgin taxing at Mumbai.Looking forward to that.
    Anyone has the Planned schedule,when available.
    regds
    MEL
    I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
     
    kaitak
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:45 pm

    All in all, I think it was a fair result: something for everyone. If Virgin doesn't like the decision, BUY BMI !

    I was a little surprised that BA got BLR; I would have expected this route to be better suited to an A330 than a 777 (which I'm assuming BA would use); still good to see a new Indian city get a link to LHR.

    Personally, I prefer the Virgin schedules - getting into BOM/DEL at c.10am, rather than the middle of the night or 4am, as suggested by others. I mean - Mumbai at 4am, that's got to be a pain!
     
    geoffm
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:01 pm

    That proposed BMI schedule is terrible! Either arriving in the early hours of the morning, probably paying for an extra "night" in a hotel, then leaving your hotel after a full day (thus another extra "night") to check-in after midnight! Horrible.

    But generally good news about the slots - some competition at last!

    Geoff M.
     
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    Crosswind
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:10 am

    bmi's proposed schedule may have more to do with aircraft availability than passenger convenience... Sill to be revealed is what other route will the Mumbai flight be paired with, if any?

    This service may prove to be a reall challenge for bmi now that their small A330 fleet will be split between 2 bases, maintenance swaps and covering programme disruption will be a real challenge!

    Regards
    CROSSWIND
     
    jaysit
    Posts: 10186
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:21 am

    Guaranteed to make no one happy, and everyone pissed.

    Maybe BMI and Virgin will collaborate on their services to Mumbai. Its clear that the VS services are hopeless if you're trying to connect to and from North America.
    Atheism is Myth Understood.
     
    roblondon70
    Posts: 88
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:25 am

    It was specifically stated in the India-UK agreement that the additional flights were to operate ouside the current peaks. BOM gets particularly overburdened at these times.
     
    Skymonster
    Posts: 3428
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:40 am

    CROSSWIND said: bmi's proposed schedule may have more to do with aircraft availability than passenger convenience

    Actually I think not...

    Firstly, this is just route authority and the airlines still have to find the slots - not sure what LHR slot availability is like at VS's departure time, but BMI might be more prepared to sacrifie a mid-afternoon slot from another route rather than use a last-departure-of-the-day slot from a domestic run. And secondly, it seems to me that BD's schedule is looking for on-line domestic, European and Star Alliance trans-Atlantic connecting traffic whereas Virgin's late-night LHR arrival is hopeless except for O&D traffic.

    Andy

    [Edited 2004-12-03 17:41:24]
    There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
     
    jasepl
    Posts: 3499
    Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:05 am

    BA currently has twice weekly operations into MAA, so after the increase they will be flying there six times weekly rather than daily. Note that the above list shows 27 weekly frequencies, while BA will only be flying 26 flights.

    Mea culpa... Thanks HB!

    It should read:

    BA: 7x Bombay, 6x Madras, 7x Delhi, 3x Calcutta, 3x Bangalore
    VS: 3x Bombay, 7x Delhi
    BD: 4x Bombay


    BMI proposes LHR-BOM Dep 1445 Arr 0350 #1
    BOM-LHR Dep 0600 Arr 1130


    That's possibly one of the worst schedules!

    Again, I was wondering if the CAA couldn't just allocate the frequencies and let the airlines decide where they wanted to fly? Anyone have any thoughts on this?
     
    roblondon70
    Posts: 88
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:10 am

    It was part of the agreement that 7 had to be to DEL and 7 to BOM I heard. This bilateral remains quite restrictive. Why do the UK always negotiate poor deals? The China deal is similarly poor from a British perspective.
     
    CrossChecked
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:12 am

    The flights to BOM are going to be like a slap in the face with a wet fish to the BMI crews operating them.

    I would imagine that BMI will use MAN based crew for the operation but position them down the day before to operate the flight to India. So far, these crews are used to some pretty nice flying - Washington, Toronto, Chicago, Vegas. All nice places to fly to.

    Wait til they get aboard a flight to India. It's going to be a whole new ball game for them and they won't know what's hit them.

    Best of luck, BMI.
    Cabin crew, doors to manual and cross check.
     
    B747-437B
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:16 am

    It should read:
    BA: 7x Bombay, 6x Madras, 7x Delhi, 3x Calcutta, 3x Bangalore
    VS: 3x Bombay, 7x Delhi
    BD: 4x Bombay


    No. It should read :

    BA : 7x MUMBAI, 6x CHENNAI, 7x Delhi, 3x KOLKATA, 3x Bangalore
    VS : 3x MUMBAI, 7x Delhi
    BD : 4x MUMBAI

    If the Brits can get the city names right from 5000 miles away, you have no excuse.
    "The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
     
    jasepl
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:37 am

    Sigh.... Let it go Sean.
     
    jaysit
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:45 am

    BMI proposes LHR-BOM Dep 1445 Arr 0350 #1
    BOM-LHR Dep 0600 Arr 1130

    That's possibly one of the worst schedules!


    No worse than Air India's schedules.
    In fact, I prefer the 7 am BOM departures by AI to the 1 am departures. The airport is less crowded and the havaldars don't bother you as much as you're racing to the gate.

    Wait til they get aboard a flight to India. It's going to be a whole new ball game for them and they won't know what's hit them.

    Well, they get to stay in some pretty nice hotels in Mumbai. In fact any half decent hotel in Mumbai beats the crappy airport hotels that crew are plunked in near Dulles. As for the crew, they ARE British, right? They should have plenty of experience with Indians of every stripe. Most Indian pax on foreign carriers sit like meek sheep in their seats and wait for their veggie meal. Compare that to some of the loud obnoxious drunks I've seen on Virgin flights to Dulles, and I'm sure BD's crew will see the BOM flight as a snap.
    Atheism is Myth Understood.
     
    gamps
    Posts: 456
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:05 am

    All nice places to fly to.

    Wait til they get aboard a flight to India. It's going to be a whole new ball game for them and they won't know what's hit them.


    What is so bad about India flights or for that matter Mumbai? Wonder why all those airlines are falling over themselves to fly there if the city and passengers are so horrible as you paint?
     
    gkirk
    Posts: 23349
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:36 am

    Wheras the people who hate flying via LHR (E.G People in the UK outside of London) continue to fly KLM via AMS  Big thumbs up
    When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
     
    airish
    Posts: 256
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:37 am

    When I attended the hearing it seemed that what ever the result it was going to appeal from the way people were talking.

    It is good to hear that British Airways has not got all the frequencies.

    Let’s see which services BMI gets someone to operate as a wet lease when Mumbai is launched.
    Worlds Only Reputable Airline Air India! Some Of The Least: BA, Jet (9w), Kingfisher!
     
    Arsenal@LHR
    Posts: 7510
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:56 am

    Somewhat predictable results, BA got the lions share, VS didn't get what they wanted, and BD with 4 slots to Bombay? I suppose being in their situation that's better than nothing.
    In Arsene we trust!!
     
    AIR MALTA
    Posts: 1737
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:03 am

    Arsenal@LHR
    BA got the lions share
    I dob't think that BA got the linos share. It is losing ground to the likes of AF and LH and that's thanks to the British not making enough to get some nice deals and the too much competition in the UK : three longhaul and a 100 regional airlines is too much.
    Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
     
    stealthpilot
    Posts: 502
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:51 am

    good news i guess, i would have hoped for some VS flights into BLR. heheheh cant wait for that to happen.... o well in time!!!
    eP007
     
    jaysit
    Posts: 10186
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:20 am

    It is losing ground to the likes of AF and LH and that's thanks to the British not making enough to get some nice deals and the too much competition in the UK.

    BA chases after premium traffic.
    And as far as premium traffic is concerned, I have never seen an empty Club World seat on the India routes. In fact, BA fly 744s with the expanded Club World cabin on their flights to India. WTPlus is also almost always packed. The only cabin in which I've seen available seats are- you guessed it - economy.
    Atheism is Myth Understood.
     
    StarGoldLHR
    Posts: 1346
    Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:29 am

    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:45 am

    BMI will probably codeshare with VS and allow VS a/c to operate the route. VS codeshares on BMI's Manchester routes.


    As a StarGold with UA and Silver with BMI and FF with VS, AA, KL, DL etc etc...

    I sincerely hope VS and BD never join !!!
    I find VS cheesey, expensive unfriendly and the third worst FF programme known to man. (Aeroflot and BA taking 1st and 2nd in my opinion).
    Ive had two bad experiences with VS and Ive only flown them two round trips.
    So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
     
    Arsenal@LHR
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:31 am

    7x Bombay, 6x Madras, 7x Delhi, 3x Calcutta, 3x Bangalore

    26 slots compared to VS's 10 and BD's 4 sounds like a hefty chunk of the shares to me, BA being the designated flag carrier is in a powerful position to get what it wants.
    In Arsene we trust!!
     
    behramjee
    Posts: 4367
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:48 am

    I feel sorry for Virgin Atlantic with regards to their BOM flight allocations. They deserved daily frequencies. It would have been better if BA got 5 frequencies only and not 7, thereby making MAA 4 weekly and BLR 3 weekly and VS getting BOM 5 weekly at least.

    I guess now BMI and VS would have to work closely together for flights to BOM from LHR. It'll be interesting to see what BMI does with their A 332s which are flown to BOM for the remaining 3 days of the week!!!

    Btw when Branson was in DEL last week, the Indian Aviation Minister said that if the need arises, he would gladly look into renegiotiating the India-UK bilateral treaty.

    One last query...VS currently flies A 343s to DEL 3 times a week so with the new daily flights to be launched from Feb 1st, will it continue to remain a daily A 343 or will we see a mixture of A 343s-346s-B 744s? Any clue?

    [Edited 2004-12-04 01:52:28]
     
    StarGoldLHR
    Posts: 1346
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:57 am

    Wasnt there a story on A.net a long time ago suggesting BMI were looking into routes to India and South Africa using an Airbus Business Jet (A318) as some kind of premium business service ?
    So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
     
    behramjee
    Posts: 4367
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:05 am

    No as far as I recall there wasnt any such thread concerning BMI using J class A 319LRs to SA or India. The thread that was on BMI concerned them being interested to fly multiple times a week from LHR to India and South Africa using A 332s.

    Btw VS is confirmed appealing this decision :

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000102&sid=aw63Vc_VZs_o&refer=uk

    http://asia.news.yahoo.com/041203/5/1skv8.html
     
    sshank
    Posts: 294
    Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:58 am

    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:06 am

    Not a bad outcome. MAA goes near daily, 4 way competition on the LHR-BOM traffic, and *A finally gets in on the action on the UK-India sector. One hopes BD will rework its schedule for better connections to the US - right now the only UA flights one can make are the later afternoon ones - hardly ideal.

     
    B747-437B
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:07 pm

    It would have been better if... VS getting BOM 5 weekly at least.

    The terms of the agreement required that no more than 7 weekly frequencies be awarded to Mumbai.

    will we see a mixture of A 343s-346s-B 744s

    Delhi airport is not certified to handle the A340-600 at this time.
    "The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
     
    User avatar
    AirIndia
    Posts: 1087
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    RE: CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations

    Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:13 pm

    Delhi airport is not certified to handle the A340-600 at this time

    Sean,

    To have an airport certified to handle an a/c is whose responsibility. Is it the AAI which needs to carry out the necessary modofications. And if yes, what are those changes.

    Will they not be covered under the requisite modifications which would be done to accomodate A380s.


    -
    Guru

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