ord
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US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:14 am

If a federal bankruptcy court does not allow US to throw out its labor contracts, liquidation will apparently begin in January:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2004-12-03-usairways-labor-contracts_x.htm
 
SQno1
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:26 am

& they said US Airways would go bust in five days, that was in October. It did'nt materialise.

Just wait and see what happens!

SQno1
 
noelg
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:29 am

US Airways May Liquidate In January

Maybe they forgot to add "but then again they might not" to the headline  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
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ERJ170
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:38 am

From what I understand, january is when the Federal Court said they would decide on the labor union contracts. But as was evident in November and December, that could be pushed back again. And even then, the courts may force the non-cooperative unions to continue to work. So I doubt if a Jan liquidation would occur. But, as is stated a gazillion times on this forum.. only time will tell.. But I wish US the best of luck. I hope they pull through this.. they really are a great airline.. And I am so glad they are getting rid of some of their 733's.. they are loking rather rough. Bring in some E190 to replace them and I will be happy.
Aiming High and going far..
 
ScooterTrash
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:45 am


US Airways May Liquidate In January


Pure flamebait. There is nothing new here. I agree with the other poster who said that the judge will probably not let the unions walk off the job. Besides, CWA now has a TA with management. The more unions that come to agreements with management, the less likely ANY union will strike. For a work action like this to be successful, you need support from other unions. I will bet that behind the scenes there is a race to not to be the last union to get a TA with management. The judge will most likely not deal kindly with the last employee group to be "out in the cold."

Scooter


 
planespotting
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:04 am

US air will be around at least until mid year of 05 at the earliest, and United will be around the whole of 05, if not longer (hopefully a lot longer Smile)
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:25 am


I agree with the other poster who said that the judge will probably not let the unions walk off the job.


I personally don't think the judge can do jack sh!t. What is he going to do have all x-thousands of employees arrested for contempt? US can't fire all it's striking employees and expect to have new staff up and running in time to avert liquidation.

And then there's CHAOS, and sickouts which the judge can't do anything about either.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
7e72004
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:28 am

If they want to walk out then let them...then they can explain to their children that Mommy/Daddy doesn't give a rats ass about supporting them. The thing that gets me is we will end up paying for their unemployment. What a disgrace!
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:30 am

I think it's best if they do go under. It will do a few things for the workers:
1. Closure to an awful and never-ending situation.
-Can you imagine living this nightmare as an employee for the past 3
years.
2. Giving the employees a descent shot at moving on.
-There is no future at US Airways. Stringing these people along with
less and less is a horrible thing to do. They could be out ther looking
for employment that is actaully secure going forward.

I really feel that what they are doing to their employees now is pure evil. This isn't a wage cut. This isn't a give back. This is a pure 3-year massacre. Anybody with any business background knows USAirways CAN NOT SURVIVE. To keep saying that if they get cuts they will survive is manipulating data and common sense. Management is acting without any moral guide here.

Think about this--they have pulled this pay cut theory two times now. It hasn't worked yet . . . it won't work now.

PJ
 
UALGSO
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:48 am

I find it so hard for those who are not directly involved with US to make negative comments about the workers who keep the day to day operation going. Now while I agree with a statement like you can't put all your eggs in one basket as far a pensions are concerned, but it's a little late to try to start building up a 401K at age 55 or 60 and anything like you were counting on from your pension. Working along side the US employees here in GSO most have second or third jobs to support kids in college or mortgages. So while it may seem absurd to be upset at the hourly wages so many outside the industry groan at, most of the employees earn this while working 80-90 hr weeks, holidays and children's birthdays. So when I see someone make a post about Mommy and Daddy not supporting the kids I do tend to get a little upset when over half of the airline employees at US, UA are already eligible for Government assistance but are to proud to accept.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:49 am

2. Giving the employees a descent shot at moving on.

Move on where? To what? It won't be into another airline position because almost every airline is laying off or reducing in some way. Most of these people have airline experience only. And this is NOT the time to be trying to get into another industry. Now is the time to weather the storm and try to hang on as long as they can. Even if US goes under and other airlines increase destinations/frequencies to cover US.. they probably will not hire any new employees. They will most likely bring in furloughed employees. So the US employees will just be assed out! I don't think that is what anyone wants. Sometimes it is better to just hold your breath and go with the flow than try and be a martyr... or your could martyr your ass right onto the unemployment line. And the unemployment line is ugly right about now...
Aiming High and going far..
 
7e72004
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:54 am

These employees knew the airline is having some big problems for a while...they could have been looking for other jobs. THey knew what they were getting themselves into...there will be no sympathy from me.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
UALGSO
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:03 am

I do not disagree about looking for other jobs, but how many companies do you know of that are hiring people in the 50-60 year old age group that the majority of US employees are in. No one that I know if is asking for sympathy, we would like management to come up with a viable business plan that will work in today's economy. I have yet to see one of the legacy carriers change anything about how they operate.
 
ord
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:29 am

Scootertrash - You are wrong saying this thread is nothing new. It is new. Not until this article have I seen anybody involved in the bankruptcy give a possible liquidation time (whether it happens or not is a different story). It was an article that appeared in today's USA Today with current information. I did not express any opinions, just posted an article I thought people would want to see.
 
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mariner
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:31 am

UALGSO:

"I have yet to see one of the legacy carriers change anything about how they operate."

That's a very interesting statement. A change in thinking would require a CEO of vision, and at the moment it is all about survival and crisis management.

Looking back, a good example is what Gordon Bethune did at Continental - radical surgery that transformed the airline "from worst to first."

But such CEO's are not thick upon the ground. Sadly. So what we have is the traditional wage cuts to keep the airline flying as that airline is now. Or even, as in the case of US, expanding - more of the same.

I don't see anyone at one of the "troubled" airlines actually rethinking the shape and structure of the airline.

Sadly.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
7e72004
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:35 am

I don't like to see anyone lose their jobs but this issue with US is not new. The problems started developing a while ago...especially after 9/11. The employees have known this for a while and i can't see why they moan and groan.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
AZjetgeek
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:03 am

These latest revelations about US and its "We must cut or die!" approach to survival is strangely reminiscent of the Continental debacle in the early 80's. Under the ownership of the infamous Frank Lorenzo, CO filed for bankruptcy. Lorenzo's aim was to get out from under the union contracts.

Is this theme starting to sound familiar?

The employees are getting screwed. How will US' efforts to make further cuts guarantee the airline's survival? Who on Earth would want to work for them under such terms? It has become very clear that US hasn't changed its approach. It's about time the bankruptcy court stepped up to the plate and take action against US' board of directors and executive team. I suggest the following:

1. Order US to be put on up for sale.
2. Remove the board of directors and order an immediate election to replace them with an equal balance of stockholders AND employees.
3. Give the executive team (CEO, COO, CFO, President) a 30-day deadline to completely re-organize the airline. If they fail to present a valid plan, they should be fired and replaced with leaders who understand that blaming their plight on LCC's is a farce and a total cop-out.

The bankruptcy court should not cut US any slack. After all, this is their second trip to Ch 11 in two years. Also, US deceived employees into taking pay cuts the last time around and then placed a $4.3 billion order for RJ's from Embraer and Bombardier a month after emerging from bankruptcy.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of legacy carriers blaming the LCC's and the unions for all their financial woes. If you can't learn how to change the way you do business on a day-to-day basis and in the long-run, then GET OUT!!!
Long live the RJ!
 
ltbewr
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am

Apparently US will also be asking the Bankruptcy court to close out the pension plans (even though they are probably badly underfunded). Once the pensions are killed off, then many employees (except maybe the pilots) facing significant pay cuts and benefit reductions, will have no incentive to stay with US and will quit in droves. Maybe this is the 'grand plan' of US's management - to get enough older, more expensive and set in ways employees out of the airline and replace them over time with lower paid, more flexible employees.
As to the January time point of a potential demise of US, isn't there some major loans or financing due then? I just hope they can downsize or do something to survive for the sake of the workers and for those customers with few options for other airlines.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:29 am


1. Order US to be put on up for sale.


To be purchased by who?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
milesrich
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:45 am

My wife works for Delta, so I am definitely coming at this issue with bias; however, one must realistically look at the labor situation in the airline industry. USAirways and UAL being allowed to continue to operate in Chapter 11 hurts the bottom line of every other carrier.

If US Airways is allowed to abrogate their current labor contracts after two bankruptcy induced rounds of concessions, or was it three, and a Court forces the workers to work for even lower wages, it will not be long before American, Delta, Northwest and Continental all claim that they need even larger concessions to survive. Perhaps a 777 captain should work for $80,000.00 a year. There are people willing to fly that can pass the government tests that will fly for a living and do not care about making money. They do it because they love to fly, AND IT SHOWS.

But the problem with this, is that the Courts are interfering with the free market. If US Airways and United are allowed to fail, then perhaps, Delta, American, Northwest, Continental, Southwest, AirTran and others, can raise their fares to levels that actually cover their operational costs.

Once the public gets used to paying higher fares, the perception that coast to coast airfares should be less than $200.00 roundtrip may go the way of the Ten Cent Cup of Coffee. Then the industry as a whole will enter a more healthy period, and many of the former UA and US employees will be hired at the surviving carriers, and be able to earn a living wage.

Labor is more than a commodity. Eventually, the American public will come to realize that low wages hurt all of us. If the downward pressure on wages continues, who will buy consumer goods that we still produce? Who will be able to afford a new home? Only the very wealthy, and believe me, you can't fill airplanes every day depending on those with incomes of $100,000.00 per year or more.

This "Race to the Bottom" must be stopped. And unfortunately, it will take the US Airways Bankruptcy Judge to do it.
 
NWAFA
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:09 am

Milesrich,

Very well said!!! I have wonderful friends that work both at US and UA. They have been beaten up so bad how much more can one take? It is time for the courts to say enough is enough, US, time to liquadate and UA time to get a plan or sell.

Both companies are only hurting themelfs, the industry and the economy by hiding in BK court.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
planespotting
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:17 am

alrite boys and girls, check this out. This is the irony of the US airline industry today...the rock and a hard place, if you will, of the legacy carriers.

The Legacy carriers offer a product. The LCC offer a product as well. The legacy product is a bit nicer than the LCC's, more services, amenities, destinations, etc..etc... Along with this you have higher fares. I would say approximately 25-40% higher in many major markets. If People want to travel just to go from A-B, and it is served by an LCC, and they don't care about Frequent Flier Miles, high quality of service, etc... Then most people will take the LCC. Most Americans will do whatever is cheapest. That is a fair assumption.

So. In offering more services and amenities and airplanes and destinations, the legacy carriers cost a bit more to operate. All these people and airplanes and services cost money, so their operating expenses are considerably higher than the LCC's. Makes sense right? yes.

Where am i going with this? Right now, the legacy carriers need to have people on their airplanes, so they have to meet the LCC prices in a lot of markets. Thus filling their airplanes, but making money? no.

If a one seat on one airplane flying one leg is considered the product, and the LCC and the legacy carrier are charging near the same amount on that same flight, then they both receive the same amont of money for said product. Obviously the LCC keeps more of it because it doesn't need to spend as much of it on operating expenses. For the LCC, the product is paying off. For the legacy, the product is losing money.

To make money, the Legacy carriers only option is to cut it's operating expenses. But in doing that, the product is diminished. People don't feel they are getting the value of that product for their money. However, if this legacy carrier was charging lets say $100 more for this product, they would be making a profit.

Now I am getting to the point of this post. People won't pay that much more if they can have near the same thing for $100 less. Legacies can't cut op expenses without diminishing their product.

In the United States, the market for a high class airline product is decreasing, less and less. As long as the LCC's are around, the legacy carrier will ultimately go the way of the dinosaur. People won't pay for higher fares. If thet LCC's went out the window, and the legacies raised their fares, only the people who could afford these seats will buy them. If they are more expensive, not as many people will be purchasing them. Not as many people will be flying and they wont' need as many employees or airplanes.


I hate to admit it. But the legacy carriers are doomed to either become
LCC or die. and thats where the game is at right now.

sorry for the long post...i kinda got carried away. i like to write.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
ScooterTrash
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:12 am

Byrdluvs747:

You are obviously not familiar with the APA sickout at AA. When that happened, the union was held in contempt of court and extremely heavy fines were levied against the union and it's membership. Believe me, no national union wants to go through what APA went through. The membership will be made to understand that as members, they are ultimately responsible for legal assessments against the union. No one will risk there credit and financial future over this thing (well, any more than they already have by having their jobs at risk).

If the judge says don't walk the membership won't walk. Period.

Scooter
 
Aither
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:18 am

Which airline would beneficiate the most it US airway fails ?
Never trust the obvious
 
NWAFA
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:21 am

Aither,

Thats a great and difficult question...WN would gain. DL and CO would gain a great deal.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
Aither
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:30 am

So if US airways fails, Delta could go out of troubles ?

Is it as simple to say "the first one to fail saves the others" ?

I don't really understand what's happening in the U.S.
In Europe there is a fierce competition with the LCCs but the majors -without subsidies  Big grin - are not close from bankruptcy.
Never trust the obvious
 
AZjetgeek
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:18 am

Byrdluvs747 - In answer to your question as to who would buy USAirways, there will always be someone out there with a sense of risk and desire to take on a challenge no one else wants. The rumors circulated in this forum about UA buying out US were absurd because of UA's current financial condition.

If the bankruptcy court were to order US to be put on the block, you will likely see several entities step forward because they believe they could get the airline at a bargain price. There might be airline people stepping up as well as those outside the industry. Most likely, some investors would form a consortium to buy out the airline. Another possibility, as bizarre as this might sound, would be to sell US to its employees. If they want to keep their jobs, it might be the way to go.
Long live the RJ!
 
aa757first
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:37 am

I would say approximately 25-40% higher in many major markets.

I would disagree. Maybe for last minute walkup fares, but other than that legacies almost always meet them or beat them.

So if US airways fails, Delta could go out of troubles ?

Not too much. US and DL are both major players at DCA, BOS and LGA, so it would provide a little relief in that area. If US goes under, MCO and FLL would become easier markets as well.

AAndrew
 
YVR2SAN
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:49 am

"The thing that gets me is we will end up paying for their unemployment"

As a employee you have unemployment as an option, its like an insurance policy that employers have to pay into in the form of taxes.

Maybe if you ever get laid off or your company goes flop you should not be entitled to unemployment either?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:48 am

Move on where? To what? It won't be into another airline position because almost every airline is laying off or reducing in some way

Except for WN... who hired 500 crews this year alone and are poised to take all that US left-behind on the domestic side of PHL and most other US focus city/hubs.

Which airline would beneficiate the most it US airway fails ?

Without a doubt WN... they have the resources to take as much of the US pie as they want. CO, AA would be next... they could take their international network to some extent.

I hate to admit it. But the legacy carriers are doomed to either become
LCC or die. and thats where the game is at right now.


Not at all... backwards, mismanaged carriers like UA, US, and to some extent DL will be gone... but AA, CO, NW are viable long-term companies.
 
sidishus
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:18 am


Without a doubt WN... they have the resources to take as much of the US pie as they want. CO, AA would be next... they could take their international network to some extent.

You won't be seeing the "Canyon Colors" of WN in cities like Chattanooga or Topeka. They do not have the catchment numbers to make the business model work. If all the airlines became LCC clones huge segments of the population will have very long drives to an airport.
Ditto for any significant international travel as well. Their model does not support the costs.
the truth: first it is ridiculed second it is violently opposed finally it is accepted as self-evident
 
nwa330tony
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:28 am

SO tired of hearing this from them!! They say this everytime they want some thing from the judge. Thats all the main article is about, trying to get the bk judge to approve whatever they want!!! Dont worry in january they have another demand and another similar headline.
 
laca773
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:39 am

This is a very tragic, sad and pathetic situation for all US employees. As it is now, they barely make enough ends meat to survive on, with all the cost cutting and etc. I think it would be a relief for everyone if US shutdown. Enough is enough with the instability and not knowing what is going to happen on a daily basis at US as well as to the flying public [us] who pays their salaries. Today I read in the New York Times Business section that US is no longer allow there previous board members and the excecutives that ran the company previously, fly F for nothing any longer!! I was shocked that they were allowing them to do this in the first place. Another sad and tragic matter at US Air.

In regards to Legacy's vs LCC's, it's simple for the fact that if the Legacy's continue to cut, cut cut, and don't lower their fares, hats off to the LCCs. It's pretty sad to have to pay an astronomical fare LAX-JFK on one of them, and have to pay for food {DL does this and it's really frugal and tacky}. They need to remember who keeps them in business-we do, and if they don't stop with all these cuts, and they will lose even their most valuable passengers who do pay the full fares, and tolerate rude, indifferent, inappropirate... flight and ground crews.
 
atmx2000
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:55 am

So if US airways fails, Delta could go out of troubles ?

Is it as simple to say "the first one to fail saves the others" ?

I don't really understand what's happening in the U.S.
In Europe there is a fierce competition with the LCCs but the majors -without subsidies - are not close from bankruptcy.


The European legacies never really had to compete with each other aggressively because of the fragmented nature of European aviation market. The legacies in the US seem to be suffering as much from the legacy of competition with every other legacy carrier on domestic routes as with the competition with LCCs. Economically inefficient responses to encroachment by new carriers and flawed frequent flier programs designed to maintain loyalty at perhaps too high a cost have no doubt reduced their profitability as well.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:01 am

You won't be seeing the "Canyon Colors" of WN in cities like Chattanooga or Topeka. They do not have the catchment numbers to make the business model work. If all the airlines became LCC clones huge segments of the population will have very long drives to an airport.

Which is more tragic... 10,000 unemployeed US Airways employees or a two hour drive from Chattanooga to Nashville? If a city can't sustain profitable opperations... then why should it be served? The opperational cost of RJs is atrocious when compared to a 737Ng or A320, if LCC's reject them on the grounds of profitiablity it's indicitive of the way "legacy" airlines should opperate.
 
Aither
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:03 am

Thanks for the answer.
Perhaps another reason is European carriers were already in competition with the train.

It's incredible how things really went wrong. It's a really bad situation for the employees.
Never trust the obvious
 
A350
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:08 am

The European legacies never really had to compete with each other aggressively because of the fragmented nature of European aviation market


Remember that there are only three big network carriers in Europe - BA, AF and LH. All the others have specialized on niches, although sometimes large niches like IB with their south America business.

The airlines who tried to grow and become another large network carrier paid a horrible price for it - see Swissair, Sabena, Alitalia.

A350
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:19 am

"Once the public gets used to paying higher fares, the perception that coast to coast airfares should be less than $200.00 roundtrip may go the way of the Ten Cent Cup of Coffee."


Why should they pay more ?

In Europe Ryanair aims to eventually fly everyone for free with the A/c being subsidized by their other business interests associated with flying.

True Ryanair isnt the Business class of travel but they have made it possible for more people to fly and force the big boys to bring down their prices.

At the end of the day... travel for the masses is only accomplished at a price they can afford. If the snobs of the industry want to moan because they have to keep their rolls royce for 2 years instead of one well i'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

But I will pay a bit more than the lowest of the lows if the service is better, but I wont pay the price of a new car for a plane ticket and neither should anyone else.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
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alberchico
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:23 am

The U.S. domestic market is heavily saturated so only a few airlines are really making any money off of it.Airlines don't make a profit by heavily cutting their fares just to fight off the competition.In order to stabilize the industry somebody has to go.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:26 am

"Move on where? To what? It won't be into another airline position because almost every airline is laying off or reducing in some way. Most of these people have airline experience only. And this is NOT the time to be trying to get into another industry. Now is the time to weather the storm and try to hang on as long as they can. Even if US goes under and other airlines increase destinations/frequencies to cover US.. they probably will not hire any new employees. They will most likely bring in furloughed employees. So the US employees will just be assed out! I don't think that is what anyone wants. Sometimes it is better to just hold your breath and go with the flow than try and be a martyr... or your could martyr your ass right onto the unemployment line. And the unemployment line is ugly right about now... "

Wow, Mr. ERJ . . . I guess it is that pioneering spirit that made America the country of brave men and women.

There is a world of possibilities out there. To sit at US Airways and give back 60% of your pay and not look for a job is ridiculous. I feel for these poor people and hope and pray that they find new opportunities in this great land.

PJ
 
sidishus
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:34 am

Which is more tragic... 10,000 unemployeed US Airways employees or a two hour drive from Chattanooga to Nashville?

You forgot answer C:All of the above. More than a few cities in the northeast into Appalachia will lose their only air service, those 10, 000 people will still be out of work...AND... WN and other LCCs will pull their service from yet more smaller, marginal markets in order to concentrate on the holes left by US's departure in the biggest markets. Oh yeah, you can bet the fare slump of recent times will quickly find its way into history as well.
All said and done, the "legacy" model isn't dead just yet. Once WN comes off their cushy-and brilliantly executed- fuel hedge position, they will find themselves with the same cost pressures as the rest of the "legacies".
the truth: first it is ridiculed second it is violently opposed finally it is accepted as self-evident
 
JeffLAS
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:13 am


This whole situation is making me ill. Having been a U.S. Airways employee at one time and talking to my friends who still work there from time to time, I know the situation is tense, really tense.  Sad
" Jazz A-380, you have 2,100 feet from the intersection......Cleared for Take-off"
 
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N328KF
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:17 am

I know US employees/fans don't want to hear this, but they (or someone!) needs to perish for the good of the industry.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
RyanAFAMSP
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:04 pm

Just a point of clarification to Scooter and others about the potential strike-

The bankruptcy Judge has no authority to order workers back to work. The Judge decides only whether or not to abrogate the contract. Workers never lose their rights under the Railway Labor Act of 1926. Since the contract would cease to exist after an abrogation by the court, workers are no longer bound to its terms and conditions, giving them the implicit right to strike.

USAirways could file a lawsuit under the Railway Labor Act, saying the workers in fact to not have the right to strike. A Federal Court would have to hear the case, and it would be uncharted waters as no labor group has struck after a contract abrogation under the RLA. If the court decided in the airline's favor, they would legally enjoin the walkout, barring a legal strike.

This situation has absolutely no connection to the 1999 American Airlines pilot sickout after the Reno Air seniority disagreement. In that case, American proved that APA coordinated the sick out, which was a job action legal only after release to strike and a 30-day RLA cooling off period. As no strike release was granted, the union was held responsible for some of the lost revenue.

Just a little labor law clarification from a former AFA official. To all the USAirways folks on the forum, good luck and be strong.


 
planemaker
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:53 pm

Please realize that LCCs do not compete with Legacies on their profitable overseas routes (which comprise 40-50% of capacity). Just imagine what kind of shape the Legacies would be in if they didn't have their international routes! I would be interested to see just how bad the Legacies' domestic losses are.

BTW, I don't understand people that cry about losing air service if US goes under... another RJ carrier will just move in.

I believe it was the WSJ that had an article recently on the Legacies' recovery business plan... hoping for one of them to go Chap. 7.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
jacobin777
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:57 pm

Why are the courts getting in the way of freemarkets? I did research in medicine for almost a decade, the pay sucked (I worked there because I loved academic research, and contributing to society), I got basically no benefits, and after 10 years, my boss left to the east coast, though he did ask me to move with him, I couldn't due to family obligations....and I had to deal with unemployment for a while..it sucked, but I moved on.....thats the way our system is....

the weak will die off....the strong will survive, and the legacies will NOT die off because they provide all of the trans-ocean international services which the legacies will not do... also, I do not believe the legacies will die off and only have the international carriers provide international services to and from the U.S.

if it takes for US, TZ, and possibly UA and Delta to go under then so be it........

The airline industry seems to be one of the most heavily govt. subsidized entity in the past 50 years (not saying there weren't or aren't others).....ie. multiple bankruptcy protections, billions in "loans", etc......
"Up the Irons!"
 
Aircellist
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:07 pm

Slightly off topic, but I must say I am eager to see, one day, a post that will say: "I am so happy, my company will liquidate, I will lose my job, it will be so good for the economy, it wil so much help the other carriers, and it will give me such an incentive to look for a new job in this wonderful land of opportunity!"

So easy to talk lightly about someone else's pay or job cut...
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
JeffLAS
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:14 pm

What is the "opposite" of liquidate??? Vaporize??? Melt??? Solidify??? Condensate??? Freezing??? Sublimation???  Laugh out loud

Okay....here are new versions of "US Airways May Liquidate in January"

"US Airways May Vaporize in January"
"US Airways May Melt in January"
"US Airways May Solidify in January"
"US Airways May Condensate in January"
"US Airways May Freeze in January"
"US Airways May Sublimate in January"

Take your pick!!!  Laugh out loud  Big thumbs up !!!!
" Jazz A-380, you have 2,100 feet from the intersection......Cleared for Take-off"
 
Thrust
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:14 pm

When I see liquidation, I will believe liquidation. For all practical purposes, it is usually difficult to say when an airline will liquidate. TWA practically died at least 3 times between the late 1970s and 2000 before finally being purchased in 2001 by American Airlines. And Continental rebounded just inches from death. Anything can change in a one month time period.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
atmx2000
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RE: US Airways May Liquidate In January

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:32 pm

Perhaps another reason is European carriers were already in competition with the train.

Sure. The close distances and high population density in Europe make trains a more competitive and attractive means of transportion. It reduced the reason for carriers to invest in big domestic or intraeurope networks. The big carriers could focus their capital on international routes that have less competition.

Remember that there are only three big network carriers in Europe - BA, AF and LH. All the others have specialized on niches, although sometimes large niches like IB with their south America business.

These big network carriers were also state protected in one way or another and had very large O&D markets almost all to themselves.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!