Byrdluvs747
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HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:08 am

Were there any HP employees/a.net'ers at the town hall meeting?


Conspicuous absence: America West Airlines employees were atwitter at the absence of CEO Doug Parker from a company town hall meeting Wednesday night. Chief Operating Officer Jeff McClelland stepped in for him and played it straight with workers: Parker was in the Midwest working on the company's expected offer for Indianapolis-based ATA Airlines.

If Tempe-based America West's bid is successful, what can employees expect? The company's flight attendants' union offered these tidbits in a hotline message to members this week: The airline plans to operate ATA independently for a year or so and to increase ATA's Hawaii flights.


http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/1203buzz-bizbuzz03.html
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7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:10 am

I still don't think HP will win this one.
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flyboyaz
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:12 am

Interesting....I hope we win it over Airtran as I don't think they really care to keep the employees. That's something ATA should consider, if they care much about their workers.
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7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:17 am

It is not up to ATA to decide if HP or AirTran gets the deal...the Judge will decide on Dec. 16. In my opinion, i think AirTran is in better position to take the MDW operation. HP, i think, is trying to bite off more than they could chew and could eventually lead to layoffs anyway...much like the AA/TW transaction.
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N328KF
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:19 am

Yes, but wouldn't ATA have less overlap with America West than Airtran?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:21 am

HP wants to buy the entire airline whereas AirTran wants only the MDW operation. TZ is supposed to pull out of MDW alltogether, with the exception of maybe the IND-MDW flights. A code share arrangment is also in the works. I don't think there will be much overlapping, if any with the TZ/AirTran deal.
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flyboyaz
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:22 am

It would certainly strenghten and broaden our market share. While we do very well in the west, we've always wanted a stronger presence towards the east. I don't see how Airtran is in a better position to take them on.

I was talking with my friend at work who was thinking about applying to be a flight attendant with us. The recruiter told her to apply before the first of the year when the system will be changing. My friend asked her what was going on and the recruiter wouldn't say, except that it was a major thing. Clouds the air even more if you ask me.
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CRPilot
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:23 am

Seems to me from all the info I've read that ATA could end up in pieces, thus allowing everyone to get a piece of the action. It looks like HP's focus is getting the 75's.
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7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:24 am

I guess either way we will find out in a couple of weeks...this would be a good bet for the Vegas gurus  Big grin
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7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:26 am

Also, it seems like the bankruptcy process for ATA is going pretty fast...by December 16 we will know what the "plan" will be.
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:39 am


I still don't think HP will win this one.


Outside of your usual anti-HP bias, please provide some reasons why.


Yes, but wouldn't ATA have less overlap with America West than Airtran?


Yes, the ATA operations would work better in HP's network than AirTrans. HP already has an infrastructure in all TZ's domestic cities(excluding Hawaii).

HP is already serving Mexico, and the Carribean routes are within HP's sights.


HP, i think, is trying to bite off more than they could chew


And somehow ATA isn't.
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7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:42 am

I do not have a "usual anti-HP bias," i was merely expressing an opinion. HP has the government backed loans, and are simply not in good financial health as is AirTran.
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stlgph
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:42 am

"It would certainly strenghten and broaden our market share. While we do very well in the west, we've always wanted a stronger presence towards the east. I don't see how Airtran is in a better position to take them on."


If that was the case then America West wouldn't have dropped out of Columbus in April 2003.

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7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:46 am

Good point Stlgph!! AirTran has a pretty good presence in the East, even against Delta.
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legendDC9
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:54 am

Do you think any airline is just going to "take over ATA" and run the same routes?! There is a reason ATA has failed and it wasn't because of poor management, so no-one is just going to take over. ATA also has the problem of name recognition anywhere outside Chicago or Indy and grew too fast too quickly. What HP and FL are trying to do is take the chunks that suit them the best, FL wants gates in MDW, HP more interested in planes and don't forget about NW that is unilaterally pushing TZ out of IND with their expansion. I am sure that eventually everyone will get a piece and TZ will go back to doing just their charters with the L-1011, straight up cash...
 
DAYflyer
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:57 am

This is an interesting battle, but one that I think is going to boil down to Southwest vs Airtran. Don't forget that Airtran is also after the Baltimore/DC and LGA operations of ATA as well as MDW.

I think whoever gets "the piece of the pie in the sky" ATA will vacate is lucky to have a ready made market in Chicago. It's one valuable piece of turf.

America West (IMHO) stands little chance due to it's financial position, and the point about CMH made above by another poster is a very valid one.

Regardless, I hope whomever gets the gates keeps the ATA employee's.
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7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:58 am

I have to disagree completely with that, TZ will not fail and NW is not going to push TZ out...i think before tz goes under the city of Indianapolis and the governor elect will step in. I see there being no problem with TZ operating as a "regional airline" along with NW at IND.
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flyboyaz
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:02 am

Chicago has much more of a population base than Columbus does...I still think that closing was a smart move.
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NWAFA
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:05 am

Hey Flyboy,

Your right, it was the best financial move for HP to close CMH. MDW could/would do well. As I have said before I am a fan of HP and take them when I can over Wn any day, however I am really worried about HP taking on too much debt...they are still holding on well, but ATA's debt will be difficult.
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legendDC9
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:05 am

TZ will not fail? As soon as the MDW gates were up for bid that was it. These are some of the most prime real-estate areas that have opened up in years and without those, TZ has little to hang on with as far as cash flow.
 
CactusA319
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:06 am

I love how people think that because HP closed the CMH (which didn't work) suddenly they're not able to create a bigger presence in the East. Give me a break.  Insane




 
qwerty
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:08 am

If that was the case then America West wouldn't have dropped out of Columbus in April 2003.

CMH is a crappy market and they mainly hubbed RJs there.

If you ever watched what HP did do there, you'd have seend they'd pull in about 6 RJS and a couple mainline planes and cross passengers.

Say what you want about that minihub idea, but I believe it preceded Parker and that they didn't enplane too many people in CMH.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:10 am


If that was the case then America West wouldn't have dropped out of Columbus in April 2003.


You're trying to compare CMH with Chicago? Everybody knew that CMH wasn't working. It just wasn't a good place for a hub. HP's new mgmt was smart enough to see it and even smarter to stem the bleeding of money.
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stlgph
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:18 am

You're absolutely right I'm comparing Columbus to Chicago. If you can't make Columbus work, what makes you think it could work on the bigger scale of things at Chicago?

TZ is already pulling its Chicago Express operations down to feed its new concentration for Indianapolis. Therefore already, Chicago is left without a dependable feeder airline network for a hub operation there, similar to a route network America West had in Columbus at one time, minus nonstops to San Francisco, Seattle, Denver, Dallas, etc.

Ideally a Chicago "hub" could still work without a feeder if there were 717 planes flying the routes (i.e. AirTran) but even so, that would eliminate the ability to be flying to the far west coast destinations. Plus at Midway you are facing the fierce competition from Southwest and low fares being fought out between Northwest and Frontier offering easy connections to the west coast destinations that would be dropped when TZ pulls out. Going out east you have Southwest (again), plus easy connections from Northwest in Detroit and Continental in Cleveland. Across town at O'Hare you have a massive hub by American, United, and flyers still loyal to Northwest, Continental, along with Delta, USAir, etc. In Columbus, the largest city in Ohio, there was little or no nonstop competition from any other carrier to the markets that would be served from Chicago, and it still didn't work enough to warrant an A319 flying the route.

















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qwerty
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:22 am

In Columbus, the largest city in Ohio, there was little

I thought Columbus was 3rd to CLE and CVG, according to Census I am wrong.

But I think that is a technicality, since the country, Franklin, encompassing Columbus is geographically HUGE. That's how the census looks at it I believe, which is also why AUS is skewed a bit. Travis county, it TX, is also very large. Both cities get ranked as more populus than Atlanta, which is not correct.

[Edited 2004-12-03 21:29:37]
 
stlgph
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:23 am

Furthermore...if CMH isn't a good place for a hub, then why isn't Indianapolis? TZ is wanting to move away from Chicago and into Indianapolis, eventually hoping from the way it seems, to copy their current route schedule from Chicago, just in Indianapolis. I doubt they would be attempting this if they didn't think Indianapolis could work at all, even with the growing focus operations of Northwest. Someday this reorganization in the end could prove the best move by an airline ever and when America West can't pay off its debt, it might be negotiating with ATA to take over some of its loads from Phoenix or Las Vegas.









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N328KF
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:29 am

Well, the fact of the matter is that ORD/MDW could use more strong players than AA and UA, and to a far lesser extent, WN.

[Edited 2004-12-03 21:30:02]
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7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:32 am

LegendDC9---i think you are to ignorant to even look at what ATA is doing and the potential they could have. You already buried them but in a few months i would like to see your reaction when i tell you "i told you so." You don't have dumb people running ATA...one of the very few mistakes TZ has done is buy too large of jets.
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CactusA319
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:33 am


Kinda weird that no one else has jumped in to make CMH a hub considering its the biggest city in Ohio and all....

Comparing CMH and MDW is apples to oranges. Granted, there is plenty of competition in Chicago, but there is enough O&D to make a hub work despite WN, UA and AA. Also there doesn't necesarily have to be feed coming in from the smaller towns (SBN, MSN, etc.) to make it work. Just ask Southwest.

 
stlgph
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:35 am

Look at the Southwest route map. There's plenty of feed there.
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7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:36 am

Would WN ever try SBN??
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N328KF
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:36 am

CMH is destined to be an RJ market.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
legendDC9
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:37 am

Stlgph, I have to disagree with everything you say about failure in CMH. CMH, being the 1st 2nd or 3rd largest city in Ohio doesn't matter if there is no reason to fly there. What CMH probably proved to HP is that a hub or minihub can't just funnel passengers and hope to make a profit. There are many cities of the same size that are similar (JAX,SJC,SAT,AUS,ELP to name a few) that don't work just the same. Bottom line, without a decent O&D market you will never make money and that is something that Chicago has plenty of. This is the same reason CO cut back in CLE, AA decided not to build STL back up and cut flights in RDU and SJC. It's business and CMH was a failure and It has absolutly nothing to do with anything HP or anyone else decides to do.
 
7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:39 am

LegendDC-9---you seem to disagree with everyone on this forum. It seems you like to jump to conclusions without even looking at the facts. Anyway, I am willing to put my money on the AirTran deal; they are in much better shape.  Smile
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legendDC9
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:44 am

7E72004 , I will wait to see. I admit to being pesemistic by nature but with MDW being such a valuable spot, having to give it up is not a positive step. It reminds me of all the other carriers who started selling their best routes and space in order to survive and are no longer with us. I don't think listing them here is needed.
 
Gnomon
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:44 am

Granted, the bids are sealed until the court rules, but with all the rumors floating around, I'm wondering what of ATA will be LEFT. HP and FL want to brawl over MDW; HP apparently wants the 757s; and FL *may* be interested in the 738s, according to the scores of HP and FL employees who purport to be plugged-in to the red phones straight to Leonard's and Parker's offices. Adding it all up, there's not much left for ATA -- the Chapter 11 petitioner -- except a few thousand ticket jackets, maybe some timetables and a hundred or so e-ticket kiosks.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Mikelsons did say he wants to go back to the drawing board. I'm just wondering how far back he's going to end up going... This small regional airline idea is interesting...
 
7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:45 am

I will wait also...if i am wrong then so be it and i will admit at the time it is announced that i am wrong...i just think that AirTran has more points in its column right now. But who knows??
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legendDC9
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:46 am

regarding the financial situation I do have to agree with you  Smile
 
CactusA319
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:46 am

No shit dude. But what, you think HP is only going to fly to only 6-7 cities out of MDW if they get this hub? Get real. It would be operated on a totally different scale than CMH ever was. If you go back to the early-'90's when they first opened CMH, they had mainline service to a wide variety of cities all over the East Coast. As time went on, they cut back, mixed in some RJ's and still couldn't make it work. Eventually they did the right thing and closed it down. MDW would work differently, with a large number of flights to a large number of destinations.

That said, I don't think HP will be taking over the MDW hub, that'll go to AirTran. And not necesarily because they're in "better shape" either. Last I checked HP was doing pretty well. I believe HP will get some other ATA assets.

 
7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:48 am

I just would love it if HP would keep the IND routes that ATA is currently trying to add...but it sounds like IF HP was to get the deal, that IND would fast become a "ghost town" with the exception of NW *loL*
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jettatco
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:48 am

ok guys, here's the deal
HP will get TZ
Parker offered a board seat to Michelson
Parker has blessing of City of Chicago
Mesa wants to buy C hico (Chicago Express) and run as HP express
Bonderman (Texas Pacific Group and HP largest stakeholder) wants
HP to grow.
Mesa and Bonderman have way deeper pockets than Airtran can ever dream of
 
Vortex
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:51 am

Now that this thread has gone from its title to one about CMH, a earlier post aptly stated the reality. The Bankruptcy Judge gets to decide. And the Judge will do so on the basis of what is best for ALL of the credotrs. Boeing, GE Capital, the employees, unsecured creditors, etc. The Airtran deal is only good for Airtran and George, no one else. The HP deal is better. Southwest has been very quiet. I expect them to be in the mix. They recently announced more service out of ISP and MDW. I know they have planes on order, but do they have enough. Any do they want new competition at MDW. WN has a lot of cash.
 
stlgph
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:51 am

Yes so if you want to base the success of a hub being around O&D traffic, one has to capture the O&D market.

With Columbus having a good 700,000 population, plus several major business and companies in the area, plus the surrounding populous areas giving you a good 2 million or so within an hour of Columbus, in addition to those driving up from Cincinnati to avoid high fares from Delta, there is a great O&D base. If your airline or marketing services can't capture an O&D base market there, what makes you think America West could simply waltz into Midway Airport with a few 757's and start successfully flying the routes on the TZ network?

You've still got the competition from O'Hare and Milwaukee, and now you have a large market of Central Illinois now flying in and out of Bloomington or being compelled to drive to Indianapolis and fly out of that airport for much lower fares. Plus you have to take away the feeder operation that was provided by Chicago Express. AmWest simply won't be successful at Midway. They couldn't even capture the Columbus market and lost out on the opportunity to ever do so later in the years as Akron/Canton and Dayton grew as alternative airports.

AirTran is the better bet of success with the 717 flying the operations it wants to begin there.
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CactusA319
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:54 am

Whatever. I'll wait and see what the courts decide.

 
7e72004
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:55 am

Jettaco--do you think that the chances of the "IND express" routes happening would be low if HP does get the deal?
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blsbls99
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:03 am

Well, if the AirTran deal happens, what happens to the MDW ATA Employees? I'm sure that they get the opportunity to apply for employment with the new MDW AirTran operation, but lose all seniority and any benefits built up over time with ATA. Right? Obviously the new ATA in IND can't absorb everyone and expect to make any profit.
The HP merger with the entire TZ operation does somewhat guarantee those jobs and benefits. But there is a likelihood of layoffs due to some right-sizing. And HP sure could move some of TZ's higher capacity jets to some HP routes while moving smaller capacity HP jet's into TZ's current routes. Hasn't there been much talk/rumor on this site about HP acquiring more 757 type capacity?
Either way the Chicago market is a prime market. I haven't heard of either UA or AA suffering in Chicago due to either TZ or WN's presence in MDW.
AirTran seems like they may have the best financial position to do this, but ATA gets chopped up a bit.
HP on the other hand keeps ATA relatively whole, but it is kind of uneasy to think of HP with more debt on the table.
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qwerty
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:18 am

Stlgph

With Columbus having a good 700,000 population, plus several major business and companies in the area, plus the surrounding populous areas giving you a good 2 million or so within an hour of Columbus, in addition to those driving up from Cincinnati to avoid high fares from Delta, there is a great O&D base.


There is a popuation, but how much time have you spent amoungst this population? They are not flying group. And CMH is not a destination. Most of the city business is state government BS and service industry HQs. And I think that close to 100K+ of that population is students who live within driving distance or wherever they'd rather be when classed are out. There is a decent professional class in CMH, I'm thinking of Nationwide and The Limited that probably travels a lot, but you can't wrestle much travel out of the average overweight rurual central Ohio resident. The biggest enplaned group in CMH is Buckeyes traveling to football away games.

Also, CVG people who are chasing lower-than-CVG fares (and CVG can be competitive) head to DAY.


 
stlgph
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:27 am

Qwerty--

I'm from the heartland and have spent plenty of time in Ohio. Who cares if CMH is not a "destination" to you. It is a destination for somebody who might need some type of air travel out of those two million people. Same for Indianapolis, and it looks to become a hub. I don't see Detroit as being America's favorite tourist destination, and it's a -major- hub. Same for Memphis. You could probably count Cincinnati in that as well, along with Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, etc. etc.

CMH can serve both a destination and a connecting point. If the CMH population doesnt fly, then they dont fly. Give them a reason to. It's the same thing America West will have to do in Chicago. Give them a reason to fly and the people will come. Look at Delta, one of the world's largest airlines, that couldn't make it at Dallas/Ft. Worth. Shoot, Amtran couldn't make it in Chicago! Population does not equal magic. It's not just about having flights here and there, in the end, it is about getting people on the planes. You've got to offer them service, planes, and fares. That's why hubs have continued to be a success in other cities with other airlines. America West couldn't do it in Columbus, and they'll have their work cut out for them in Chicago.

As I said, AirTran is in the better position to profit from taking over MDW operations on the TZ side. I address the DAY vs. CVG airport issue in my previous post.


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Byrdluvs747
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:36 am

Jettatco,

I was wondering if TPG(Texas Pacific Group) was going to get into the mix. If so AirTran would be eliminated as TPG can outbid any offer made by FL.

The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
qwerty
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RE: HP To Operate ATA Independently!

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:52 am

I'm from the heartland and have spent plenty of time in Ohio. Who cares if CMH is not a "destination" to you

I always hate that. Heartland is what a politician uses to convince and airliner exec to start service or get a vote. Lots of travel on heartland business. Lots of heartland butts in the seats (heading to FL on supersavers once a leap year).

I complained to your rah rah post stating that CMH is really a lousy maket to your claim that the population was there to support mondo service. We can quibble over that. I'm a marketing guy. You go to CMH to see what average is like. The average central Ohioan is an overweight lower to middle income person who doesn't travel by air that often. Plain and simple. The fact that there happen to be 2 Million of them within pickup truck driving distance of CMH benefits little.

But, perhaps we both do agree that CMH is a lousy hub.
It is:
Lousy airport.
Lousy local government.
Losy mayor.
Lousy business climate.
Lousy taxes.

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