erikwilliam
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Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:02 am

Hey guys, one thing I can´t understand is why United changed it´s livery.
Not that the new is bad or anything, but, they´re in a bad financial shape and re-painting the whole fleet must cost a big load of money.
I can see they trying to show the image of a new company, trying to get out of bankrupcy a new image to the consumer and everything, but isn´t that too much money spent for someone with not that much money to spend.

Anyway, I like the new livery, and I would it more if Unite was a healthy company.


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dtwclipper
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:06 am

Ah here we go again, with the costs of new paint jobs.

The aircraft are repainted as needed, not all at once. It will take years for the entire fleet to be redone, as each aircraft goes in for it's maintenance.

Secondly, the PR gained from a new image, ads, etc, can be helpful to the company as it emerges from Ch. 11.
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N1120A
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:09 am

>Hey guys, one thing I can´t understand is why United changed it´s livery.
Not that the new is bad or anything, but, they´re in a bad financial shape and re-painting the whole fleet must cost a big load of money.
I can see they trying to show the image of a new company, trying to get out of bankrupcy a new image to the consumer and everything, but isn´t that too much money spent for someone with not that much money to spend.<

The point of the new livery is three fold. One, UA's old livery was one of the least liked in the industry. I know 1K flyers who cannot stand it. Second, the new livery is part of an overall image makeover that UA is hoping will help them emerge from their troubles.
The final, and most important reason is that the new livery is cheaper that the old one. The reason the fleet is changing over slowly is because the planes are being painted when they come in for normal maintainance, when the planes are stripped of paint anyway and repainted, so there is no additional cost of painting the plane out of order, they just paint them with different paint, that is much cheaper.
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Danny
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:43 am

How many times it needs to be explained that United does not repaint its fleet into new livery? They ONLY repaint aircraft that would have to be painted anyway. By putting white they actually reduced cost of paint comparing to old livery.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:48 am

I am also pretty sure that numerous images of UA 175 slamming into the South Tower of the WTC had played a role in UA's decision to revamp its livery.

Worth noting: TWA modified its livery shorlty after the crash of Flight 800 and PanAm (the original) modified its livery sometime after the bombing of Flight 103.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
legendDC9
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:48 am

These answers do bring up the question though, if changing livery, white paint is cheaper, UA is in bankruptcy and all, why not go without all the new paint and keep the metal color like AA?
 
ord
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:54 am

N1120a - United's gray livery is not one of the least liked in the industry. That is simply not true, and it played no part in coming up with a new livery. The fact that you know 1K flyers who hate it means nothing as there are always people that dislike any livery. I know many 1Ks that really like it (and also like the new one as well).

The new livery is the final piece of a complete branding overhaul (ticket counters, signage, logotype, etc.) that began back in the late 1990s when Pentagram Design was hired by United to replace the previous branding effort by CKS Partners.

 
erikwilliam
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:27 am

OK guys, thanks for clearing that up  Big thumbs up.
I tought the new paint job would actually cost much more than the old one.
And as DTWClipper putted if it can do good for the airline and is cheaper, then it´s all good!!!!
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
keesje
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:31 am

Good question, IMO the old one was more differentiating & classy.

And no, I'm not an amateur.
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N328KF
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:35 am

Let's go with clear.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
BIGBlack
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:13 am

I like both liveries
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solnabo
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:29 am

If they paint waves w the new UA c/s it looks a lot like Dreamliners c/s......

My 0,02

Micke  Big grin
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
legendDC9
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:33 am

"I tought the new paint job would actually cost much more than the old one.
And as DTWClipper putted if it can do good for the airline and is cheaper, then it´s all good!!!!"

Unfortunatly, the costs associated with changing the livery are not limited to aircraft. I don't know to what extent UA is looking to repaint, but you have to look at ground equipment, ticket counters and other facilities in several hundreds of stations. All together, the cost for these alone is in the millions of dollars, before you touched the first aircraft.
 
erikwilliam
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:44 am

Legend: I have to agree with U, and I think has completes my post.
Maybe that´s why United is in Bankrupcy.
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:07 am

Unfortunatly, the costs associated with changing the livery are not limited to aircraft. I don't know to what extent UA is looking to repaint, but you have to look at ground equipment, ticket counters and other facilities in several hundreds of stations. All together, the cost for these alone is in the millions of dollars, before you touched the first aircraft.

There is an old saying in business: Youv'e got to spend money to make money! If United needs to spruce up it's image to bring in Pax, this is what you must do....end of story!
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
Newark777
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:10 am

Just because they change livery doesn't necessarily mean they have to change everything right away. I still see a CO vehicle driving around once in a while with the old CO colors on it.
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
legendDC9
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:28 am

"There is an old saying in business: Youv'e got to spend money to make money! If United needs to spruce up it's image to bring in Pax, this is what you must do....end of story!"

I think that there are far better ways to spend money than to once again change livery&co in order to attract more people. I would think that for an average traveller, what color the aircraft is, is pretty far down the list of choises. How about PTV's in the domestic system? or if you are going to paint, how about some theme planes? maybe spend money in bringing back free meals? All those will attract more than just re-painting and remember, UA still had aircraft painted in the OLD white livery until just several years ago. I don't mean to sound argumentative and UA is my carrier of choice on all int'l travel, I just don't get it.
 
JET1977
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:55 am

Bring Back the "Friendly Skies" paint Job !!!
 
ord
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:02 am

LegendDC9 - You failed to read my post. In United's case the cost to repaint is limited to just the repainting. The new livery is the FINAL piece of United's rebranding that began around 1998. Most if not all of the ticket counters, baggage claim areas, signage, ticket jackets, ground equipment, etc. were changed years ago to the new look. Have you not noticed that United has been using the block letters, "cutoff" logo, new blue color, etc. on everything BUT the planes for years now?
 
virginlover1
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:05 am

I dont know about u guys but i think the new livery is ok, beats the old colour scheme they had anyday
if it fly's i will photo it
 
jmy007
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:22 am


"Worth noting: TWA modified its livery shorlty after the crash of Flight 800 and PanAm (the original) modified its livery sometime after the bombing of Flight 103. "


I believe that TWA new colors came out in late 1995, and Pan Am was in 1987 or 88 before 103.

Correct me if my memory is fading, but I am certain about TWA
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Deltacvg
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:26 am

...isn't DL going back to the mid-1980's livery with the widget and black nose cone?


-Beat Army
 
ord
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:34 am

The new TWA livery definitely came out before the crash of flight 800. I remember checking the news reports to see if the downed plane had the new livery.

And no, Delta is not changing their livery (just the shape of the widget).
 
nzblue
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:21 am

I dont know about u guys but i think the new livery is ok, beats the old colour scheme they had anyday

I completely agree with you. I was never a fan of the old grey scheme. In comparison, the new scheme to me looks bright and vibrant.

Today the freshly painted UA 747-400 came into LAX from NRT before going back, and during the time it was here on the ground, I was able to get out onto the tarmac and see it from really up close and personal on a walk-around. I think the new scheme can only truly be appreciated from up close, as then you can see the fine lines in the tail design and get a feel for how much larger the plane seems to be now that its a bit brighter.

I think UA did a great job in selecting this scheme. I am now quite curious to see if the winglet colors will carry over onto the Airbus fleet once those planes start to get repainted.

Regards,
NZblue
It's an entirely different kind of flying; all together.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:35 am

The new TWA livery definitely came out before the crash of flight 800. I remember checking the news reports to see if the downed plane had the new livery.

The downed plane still wore the old livery that debuted in 1974. If the new livery did indeed start showing up on planes before the crash of Flight 800, then the plane used for that flight did not have it.

I believe that TWA new colors came out in late 1995, and Pan Am was in 1987 or 88 before 103.

I guess neither livery was too wide-spread before the 2 respective crashes. The photos of the remains of PA 103 is clearly the old livery w/the blue cheatline.



[Edited 2004-12-06 23:36:17]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
jmy007
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:06 am

"I guess neither livery was too wide-spread before the 2 respective crashes. The photos of the remains of PA 103 is clearly the old livery w/the blue cheatline. "


Very True, as TWA took delivery of their new 757 close to the July 17th 96. I can't remember, but it was either the week before, or the week after, and those planes had the new colors. Only a few in the fleet had the new colors at the time late 95/early 1996, and sadly, not all Twa's plane got the new twin gloabs, even into the LLC and then the AA merger.
Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
 
PVG
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:36 am

The old livery was dull and drab! Not the image you want to have when emerging from Bankruptcy. 1K flyer.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:51 am

"These answers do bring up the question though, if changing livery, white paint is cheaper, UA is in bankruptcy and all, why not go without all the new paint and keep the metal color like AA?"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't AA'S silver livery cost the same and if not the same still close to a regular paint job as an anti corrosive coating still has to be applied and such? I could have sworn I read something about it in Airways once.
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
aamd11
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:57 am

probably so. Your aircraft has to be covered no matter what, don't want corrosion to hit (corrosion will not help save money)

I like the new colours, the new tail is great In my opinion.
I likd the grey colours, but the new ones are just fantastic - who'd have thought a colour scheme with so much white could be so good?  Nuts
 
EMBQA
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:58 am

White paint is NOT cheaper. Cost of paint is based on type, not color.

White paint is NOT lighter...it is actually heavier. White is one of the heaviest pigmented paints. Next time your in a paint store pick up a gallon of black, and a gallon of white.... the white is heavier.

It will take years to repaint the fleet, even within a single fleet type. The Gray scheme came out in 1993, and I was in AMA getting my airlines planes painted when I saw the final 747-400 get painted in 1998...so 4+ years for the 747-400 alone....!!
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
BIGBlack
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:21 am

Bring Back the "Friendly Skies" paint Job !!!

Pictures. It's been awhile.
Someone special in the air
 
mtnmanmakalu
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:32 am

Secondly, the PR gained from a new image, ads, etc, can be helpful to the company as it emerges from Ch. 11.

IF they ever emerge from bankruptcy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
airways6max
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:59 am

Probably to change their image, PR purposes. However, I'm not keen on United's newest livery; it doesn't stand out, looks generic and very un-original. Everyone uses blue. I didn't think the old one was so bad, but if United had to change its color-scheme, I would simply have deleted the gray and replaced it with white, maybe a large U logo on the tail and one on the fuselage.
 
Carpethead
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:37 pm

Bare metal aircraft weigh less and hence reduced fuel burn.
On the flipside. Because of the lack of paint as an corrosive protectant, more frequent maintenance inspections is required. Hence, more maintenance mainhours.
Either way, I believe it breaks-even both ways. It has to do with experience with the airline such as AA with their aircraft or likes of JL & NW with their bare-metal 74Fs.
 
jfrworld
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:05 pm

"There is an old saying in business: Youv'e got to spend money to make money! If United needs to spruce up it's image to bring in Pax, this is what you must do....end of story!"

Um DTW, I have to disagree. The most profitable airline in the industry (WN) had the same livery for almost 30 years!! The Orange, Brown, and Red branding was all over everything long after the earthtones craze of the 70's went away. IMO, the brown on some of WN's older aircraft looked like the same avocado hue of my mom's tuperware.

They finally updated the logo a few years ago by adding a heart and stuff like that.

How about UA spend less $$$ on new ticketcounters and paint jobs for tugs, and INSTEAD upgrade their mediocre service. Better service would make me and many others want to fly them over a paint job for the gate podium.

I'm off my soapbox...
 
jfrworld
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:10 pm

"How about UA spend less $$$ on new ticketcounters and paint jobs for tugs, and INSTEAD upgrade their mediocre service. Better service would make me and many others want to fly them over a paint job for the gate podium."

Adding on to my previous point, I'm not talking about the new PS from LA/SFO to JFK. Don't upgrade service on a handful of flights that hardly anyone can experience and leave the rest of your service mediocre. PS maybe the best thing around, but my last domestic flight on UA from SFO to DEN left a lot to be desired. We didn't even get peanuts!!
 
aviatortj
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:17 pm

INSTEAD upgrade their mediocre service.

Pay for better service, and you will see it. That is why they have the option.
 
jfrworld
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:21 pm

"Pay for better service, and you will see it."

OH, I paid!!!!
 
deltabobo
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:45 pm

isn't DL going back to the mid-1980's livery with the widget and black nose cone?

I wish!!! Thats one way of getting Delta back better than ever, is to rally the employees under one common banner, the old widget  Smile I am dreaming, but as the Beach Boys said, "Wouldn't It Be Nice"

Dispatchers...saving pilots from themselves and their egos since 1938!
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:14 pm

Well the new UA livery shall brighten things up at SFO... The combination of all those ugly grey planes and the usually overcast sky really gives SFO a rather dark and depressing atmosphere.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
boeingfever777
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:58 pm

Secondly, the PR gained from a new image, ads, etc, can be helpful to the company as it emerges from Ch. 11.

From the first post, that's why I though carriers re-painted a/c, to turn a new leaf in the company and not associate bad times with old colors.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
planespotting
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:05 pm

JFR world:

I am sure you are aware of this, but Southwest started changing it's livery in the late 1990's...About half the airplanes are Blue and half of them are the old livery...

a better example would be AA.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
sunilgupta
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:49 pm

White paint is NOT cheaper. Cost of paint is based on type, not color.

I don't know specifically about aircraft paints, but in large volumes white paint is generally cheaper. That's why many fleet vehicles are white. Furthermore, while is generally the base color for all other colors. Perhaps that does not apply to aircraft paints... I'm not sure.

Sunil
 
erikwilliam
Posts: 2122
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:03 am

I think we have to make some points clear here:

1- If the planes re-painted were alredy going for manintenance, and had to be re-painted and the new livery is cheaper, that make a lot of sense, U got two things for the price of one.
2- Spend money to make money aply for business and companies that do not own a lot of money, neither are facing bankrupcy. If one is facing bankrupcy the best thing to do is find a better way to make money and a better way to spend it.
3- United will not get out of chap.11 because their new paint job, of colourfull counters or confy boarding gates, it will get out with a good management and saving money, togheter with renegotiation of debts, paycosts, wages, taxes, etc etc.
4- United´s image will grow a LOT better once they get ou of chap.11 and get profitable. The new livery will make people think United is more beautifull, not less bankrupt.

Nice post guys, lots of ideas, keep them coming.
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
JAFA
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:03 am

I highly doubt the new United livery is cheaper than the old one. Look at all the lines and shades of blue. That requires a lot of taping and man hours. United never said that thier new paint job was cheaper than the old one.

It is NWA that said thier new paint job is marginally cheaper than the old one. Why because the whole fuselage is painted one color which doesn't require taping off lines and the man hours to do it.

As far as the need for a new United paint job that is debatable. I think it looks ok in pics but probabaly looks better in person.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Why United Changed Livery?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:20 am

Regardless of the money issues, I'm glad they did it. The old one was as ugly as it could have been possibly made to be. Who wants to fly an airline which such depressing colors?

The white with blue is much nicer, but still not as good as the one they had before the depression grey.

It can only help the immage of the airline.
One Nation Under God