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N328KF
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ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:43 am

OK, I'm sure many of us are familiar with the operatic saga of the ORD expansion project. However, I do think it will happen. Hasn't the runway alignment portion already been approved?

In any event, what is the goal for the new T6? How will that affect what airlines are where? I know T6 will be over on York Road, whereas the rest enter through Mannheim. It'll be nice to have two ways into the airport.

Will the light rail system extend over to T6?

Will they manage to pull off building T4 where the cooling center is?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
jsnww81
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:34 am

The actual plans for Terminal 6 located it immediately adjacent to Terminal 5, on the land presently occupied by freight terminals, right next to Mannheim. Some of the loosely-tossed-around ideas called for T6 to be used by all non-hubbing domestic carriers (Delta, Northwest, Continental, America West, Spirit, etc.), thus freeing up room in T2 and T3 for United/American to expand their operations.

The plans I've heard call for the following division among terminals when all construction is complete:

Terminal 1: All United domestic and Ted
Terminal 2: I've heard conflicting stories on T2. One scenario has it being completely rebuilt to handle Star Alliance international ops. The other has it being heavily overhauled into a respectable United Express facility (United/Star international flights would stay at T5.)
Terminal 3: All American domestic
Terminal 4: American/Oneworld international ops
Terminal 5: Non-alliance international flights and charters
Terminal 6: Skyteam and non-alliance domestic services

There are long-term plans for a Terminal 7, which will be built on York Road on the western side of the airport (that's probably what you were thinking of). I haven't heard any rumors regarding occupants in that terminal, and with the addition of T4 and T6 I don't think it will be needed for quite some time.
 
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N328KF
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:31 am

A link worth visiting:

O'Hare Modernization Plan
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:18 am

I don't care what they do, I just want them to do it already! All this damn legislation, bills, reviews, filabusters, the list goes on...

Just get it over with!!!
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:55 am

Have they starte moving dirt for the first runway yet? Torn down some buildings yet or anything of that nature?

The website doesn't give much info on current progress, if any.

George
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JoFMO
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:30 pm

@Jnsww81:

What you discribed is quite accurate. I found the same information regarding future terminal projects in O'Hare's 'World Gateway Programm'. But for T2 it only gives the info that it is planned as Star Alliance's international terminal.

In general i find the World Gateway programm very interesting, especially because it will finish the stupid situation with all international arrivals at T5. It is really a shame for one of American biggest global gateways, that transfering to a domestic flight is such inconvinient (but LAX is worse).

All in all the project will give ORD 12 new aircraft stands.

All other projects like new runways and T7 are not part of World Gateway Project.


@N328KF:

The people mover will get a new station in T6 and be extended further with stations at parking lots and finish at a proposed new intermodal station next to the nearby commuter railway near Mannheim flyover .

The next step is a new terminal on west side of ORD next to York Road. It will make the airport accessable from the west. The Chicago subway will be extended one station from the current terminal side to the new westside terminal.
 
ordflyer
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:48 pm

Have they starte moving dirt for the first runway yet? Torn down some buildings yet or anything of that nature?
Progress has been pretty slow so far...last I heard I think they were starting to buy up property around the airport that will be needed for the runway re-configuration, and they submitted the plan to the FAA who is expected to approve it sometime next summer.
This article from the O'hare website has a bit of info on the current progress...
http://egov.cityofchicago.org/webportal/COCWebPortal/COC_EDITORIAL/20041105_OHare_revamp_gets_FAA_boost.pdf
 
AAplatnumflier
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:13 pm

In my opinion this will happen as soon as the LAX project happens. I think they are both bad and I think they will both get passed as they are both better than what they have now. That is my AAopinion.
 
ckfred
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:19 pm

The runway reconfiguration is waiting for approval from the FAA. Right now, the City cannot negotiate with property owners in DuPage County, pursuant to a court order. That is being appealed.

Further, some of the suburbs have signed right of first-refusal agreements with property owners, so the villages can match any offer from the City. This is designed to run up the cost of buying property, so that the City will decide it can't afford to expand ORD.

I think Bensenville has even bought some residences and is leasing them. Bensenville is working on the theory that one municipality cannot condemn property owned by another municipality.

What bugs me is all of these do-gooders in DuPage have no idea how long it takes to get to Peotone. I can drive to MDW in about 30 minutes, 45-50 in rush hour. I can drive to ORD in 35 minutes, 50 minutes if traffic is bad. But Peotone is at least 1 hour and 20 minutes. And no politician who is in favor of Peotone has backed extending I-355 to I-57, so that the drive to Peotone will be under an hour.
 
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N328KF
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:25 pm

I can drive to ORD in about 15 seconds. I'm literally that close (during the day.) That's why I love it.  Big grin

Anyhow, what I'd love to see is a fully-fledged new airport in the Aurora/Joliet area. Peotone is too far east to be useful to me. But something at the NW corner of the I-80/I-55 intersection would be located nicely, and would serve lots of downstaters too.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:58 pm

K328KF-I'm not from the Chicago area, so I wouldn't know the answer to this myself, but would ARR (Aurora Municipal) be able to be rebuilt or reconfigured in some way, shape, or form into what you are suggesting?
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N328KF
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:16 pm

ARR is a little further north than I had in mind.

Take a look at this map:

http://www.auroraairport.com/locate.htm

Down where you see the actual word (not dot) for Shorewood is where I had in mind.

The SE suburbs already are close to MDW...IMHO needless duplication. The north burbs can all get to ORD easily enough. NW Indiana has the Gary airport, and far north Illinois has RFD.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:48 pm

Lets be realistic folks, the business and the high end corporations and the wealth is on the N, NW and W sides not the South Sides or even the SE, maybe Orland Park area is the exception. No way is anyone going to drive to RFD, ARR or Peotone, if you thing GYY will takeoff dream on.
 
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N328KF
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:46 pm

LOT767-300ER:

You're kidding, right? You're right about wealth being in those spots, but Naperville/Downers Grove is definitely SW.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:13 pm

This is going to take so many years to do anyway. The six parallel runway idea is good because it limits the crossing of active runways which right now at ORD is a clusterf***.

I know there is some town to the south which will be difficult to put that far south parallel in because it will require demolishing a lot of houses.

Don't the railroad tracks to the west have to be detoured also when they make a couple of the parallels 12,000 ft since they will eventually close their longest runway 14R/32L?
 
planespotting
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RE: ORD Expansion

Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:16 pm

LOT767-300ER is basically right. Yes OP, Naperville and Downers Grove are all towards the south. But the northshore, northwest, and western burbs have some of the wealthiest houses, business and people in the midwest region. take a drive in the daytime through Wheaton, St Charles, Hoffman Estates, Elmhurst, Crystal Lake (way northwest), Mount Prospect, Niles, Arlington Heights, Palatine, Deerfield, Northbrook, Lakeforest, etc..etc.. and the wealth here clearly outdoes anything the southwest has to offer (no offense to you Joliet/N-ville/OP/DG kids out there). I know alot of people from this area who are willing to drive the 60-90 mins to MDW to avoid ORD.
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N328KF
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:17 am

HlywdCatft:

ORD is bracketed by railroad tracks, actually. This whole thing will be interesting because there is already an approved rail expansion project that involves the O'Hare commuter rail stations. I wonder if those two groups have talked to each other.  Big grin

And from the sounds of it, yes, the tracks that run along York Road will have to be moved. Especially since it's a grade-level crossing across York Road, and not a bridge.

[Edited 2004-12-07 16:20:34]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
jsnww81
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:30 am

LOT767-300ER is absolutely spot on - with few exceptions, all the wealth in Chicago in concentrated in the city and in the north and northwest suburbs. There are pockets of wealth in the western burbs (Oak Brook, for instance) but even in those cases O'Hare is the most convenient option.

Money talks in Illinois (look how long two tiny wealthy villages have delayed the sorely-needed Route 53 extension in Lake County) and the corporations in Cook and Lake County will never support the Peotone airport. They can go ahead and build it, but the corporate flyers (re: $$$$) won't be driving down there.

The land acquisition will happen eventually - most likely it will take intervention on behalf of the federal government. Before 9/11, when ORD was operating at near-meltdown levels, they showed their willingness to step in and hammer the expansion through. They backed off for a few years during the post-9/11 dropoff, but with traffic on the way back up, I'd expect them to come in and craft a solution if the need arises.

Regarding the railway line - there's a campaign underway for a nonstop train connection (somewhat similar to Heathrow Express) that would run from Union Station to the O'Hare Station near Mannheim Road. From there passengers could take a new extension of the ATS to the terminals.
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:18 am

CP Rail has a huge intermodal (Bensenville) yard just to the south of O'Hare that would really complicate expansion there, and a number of other lines run in literally all cardinal directions surrounding the field. Regarding the campaign that you were talking about, Jsnww81, check out the O'Hare Direct Proposal for more information. Out of anything I've ever seen for improvements for multimodal connections at ORD, this one probably is the most comprehensive and realistic.

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
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N328KF
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:23 am

Mikey711MN:

My office butts up against that yard. We'll be more than glad to see it go. Of course, the next time ORD decides to expand (after this project), I'm sure they'll buy this land too.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
ordflyer
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:37 am

The land acquisition will happen eventually - most likely it will take intervention on behalf of the federal government
That's true...I also think we shouldn't overlook the fact that Daley won't hesitate to take extreme means to get what he wants (Meigs demolishion etc), and he reeeaally wants this O'Hare modernization to happen. I'm sure he'll work out a way for this to happen upto and including getting Federal assistance.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:42 am

Regarding the railway line - there's a campaign underway for a nonstop train connection (somewhat similar to Heathrow Express) that would run from Union Station to the O'Hare Station near Mannheim Road. From there passengers could take a new extension of the ATS to the terminals.

It's only 2 stops now (soon to be 3 when the Schiller Park station opens in conjunction with the North Central Line expansion), so the problem is more lack of frequency than anything else. When the double tracking project is finished in 2007 (IIRC), the frequency problem will be taken care of.


Does anyone know if the city has studied doing the runway reconfiguration without building 10R-28L? It would alleviate a lot of the opposition but obviously would not be quite as efficient.
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JoFMO
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:10 am

I don't think it is very convinient for passengers from Chicago to use the train to an an Mannheim Road Statio and transfer there on the people mover. That would't be compareable with Heathrow Express, what brings you directly under the terminal. Under this circumstances the Underground/Elevated will be the better travel solution from ORD to Chicago City.
 
jsnww81
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:13 am

JoFMO:

You're correct - from a convenience standpoint the CTA elevated is a much better option, especially for passengers with luggage. However, the CTA Blue Line makes about 15 stops between downtown and the airport, with travel times approaching an hour.

Anyone who's ever spent an hour on a CTA elevated train knows that they are noisy as hell - I've ridden tons of public transit trains in my life, and the CTA is by far the loudest and least comfortable. The prospect of an hour on the train, unable to hear yourself think, doesn't sit too well with me.

Of course, there's a project on the board to add "bypass" tracks at stations along the Blue Line, allowing some trains to run 'express' to the airport. In my opinion this is a great idea - but given the CTA's current cash crunch and all the upcoming service reductions, I don't know if we'll see it happen anytime soon.

Heathrow Express must have cost a fortune to construct, but it's a magnificent asset. If only Chicago could make about $200 million appear out of nowhere, we could have something similar.  Smile
 
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N328KF
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:21 am

Jsnww81:

Having ridden Heathrow Express, the CTA Blue Line, and the Metra (Chicago's suburban train service) on the line that O'Hare is on, I would say that Heathrow Express is definitely very nice. Pricey, but nice.

For what it's worth, the new Metra line will run to O'Hare from Aurora. It'll be great for the suburbanites who don't want to drive.

[Edited 2004-12-07 20:22:38]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
planespotting
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:36 am

That metra line will be very convenient. The metra is a pretty decent operation. The red line is by far the favorite, just for people watching alone. But at least in the next year i wouldn't expect anything from the CTA, as they keep talking about reduction in services, over budget, etc..etc.. They aren't even letting santa ride the train this year!
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ckfred
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:23 pm

N328KF:

Putting an airport at I-80 and I-55 would work for me, since I live near 55, a little east of 355.

But for the fact that there is no room for expansion, JOT is in a great location, since it's off of 55, a little north of 80.

I've been past the Peotone site, and I simply can't see people driving from the Loop or investors building industrial and office parks.

But what I find interesting is that no one who lives east of ORD in Chicago proper is complaining about having 6 runways running east and west. A friend of my wife's used to live in an apartment that was under the departure pattern for Runway 9L. Her reaction to the noise and very low aircraft was, "I've gotten used to it."
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:35 pm

===DPA===has a beautiful terminal that goes unused.....why not get some amer eagle/uax flights in there...
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
Thrust
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RE: ORD Expansion

Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:00 pm

Well obviously ORD is never underserved...lol. So yea, expansion would be a great thing. Especially in terms of freeing up congestion. Maybe this way AA and UA could actually coexist better there. ORD is a very profitable airport that needs to be more open to all U.S. airlines and international airlines  Big thumbs up
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