padcrasher
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Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:08 am

Aviation Daily is reporting Song will start these routes in February. Should really drop yields in this lane. Things may need to change for UA/AA as they offer no IFE and in some cases less legroom. I believe these two routes should require 4 of the 12 757s coming over from Delta
 
BIGBlack
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:59 am

Nice! I hope BOS follows.
Someone special in the air
 
flyguy1
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:02 am

I would assume only certain flights would go Song.
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
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STT757
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:24 am

I've been expecting them to take over these routes since last year, yields on transcons have gone to sh*t. Almost as bad as Florida, no one's making money no matter how fancy or basic their service offering on the routes.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
roseflyer
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:25 am

I am curious how an all economy LCC style carrier like Song would impact the market. It has a lot of high yielding passengers that pay for first and business class. First and business passengers can subsidize economy passengers in the style of low cost international economy service. UA has given up trying to cater to the low fare part of the market with their PS service. They only have economy plus and a small economy section compared to their business section. With the addition of Song to the market, there are more low fare economy seats available. HP has a few seats, but their A319s don't compare to the larger planes of the legacies. It will be interesting to see how Song will affect the market. Fares in economy are already pretty low on the route (depending on airports you fly to), so the majors probably will still rely on the business traffic to earn good yields and use low fare economy passengers to fill planes up so they can have multiple frequencies that please the business travelers.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:29 am

DL gets very few business travelers on this route...all they really get are tourists and some traffic connecting to the Europe flights. I think DL has simply given up on the business traveler and decided to let Song take over.

What few business travelers are left will be chased off if DL makes this conversion.

 
BIGBlack
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:30 am

Well, I used to fly ATA to Vegas on vacation. Assorted airlines to Flordia. Now I fly Song to both and wont go any other way.
Someone special in the air
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:37 am

If Song goes transcon out of Boston, it would be something like the third or fourth time DL has tried and failed on these runs. Never mind the distinction between Song and Delta: Delta gave up because there were too many seats flying the routes. Now, they may see AA with fewer seats out of Boston (737-800s versus the 757s/767s they previously used) and fewer daily flights, too. So DL may feel that their Song unit can succeed 'this time' on Boston transcons where they failed before. Certainly, there needs to be SOMETHING new to herald Delta's gorgeous new Logan terminal that is set to debut in '05.

Chris in NH
 
aa757first
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:46 am

Things may need to change for UA/AA as they offer no IFE

Wanna bet?

AAndrew
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:49 am

They're not going after either UA or AA, but rather B6 in the JFK-LGB and JFK-OAK markets.

If you look at the product offerings between the four carriers (DL, UA, AA, B6), the only two with the same product portfolio, basically grounds to compete, are DL and B6.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
roseflyer
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:03 am

It is good for them to go after the economy passengers. There is room for the premium service (UA and AA) alongside low costs service (Song, B6) in addition to CO and HP. It is a huge route with so many diverse passengers.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:37 am

Nice! DL should go DFW-FLL, DFW-LAX, JFK-DFW and DFW-SFO with song, though it wont happen likely.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:50 am

I'm a business traveller and I'd take Song in a second on this route. AA tried to compete with B6 and basically gave up, pulling out of SNA, for example. And here's a clue: there are PLENTY of business travellers flying on B6. They're just not getting ripped off. Last trip to OAK on B6, I sat next to a lawyer and a paralegal, whose client was paying for the trip. She didn't care about the price (although her client might have); she just wanted the DirectTV to distract her when she wasn't working. (I actually *did* care about the price: I wasn't prepared to pay Delta's then-outrageous one-day-notice one-way fare, even though I coulda used the miles and the upgraded seat.) I have to say that the DirecTV is a zillion times better than the IFE alternatives that the other carriers are trying. Song is the only product to meet or exceed the product offerings on B6 head on, but with Delta pilots and crews. Unlike the B6 attendant who, when the lawyer next to me asked for a Coke, told her, "We're serving water now." Or told me, when I very, very nicely and timidly interrupted her sitting on her ass in the galley reading to ask for a beverage, wordlessly handed the thing to me like she was holding a dead rat, and just in case I didn't get it, made a point of glaring at me. (If Neeleman is going to make good on his promise of actually providing *service* on his airline, he's going to have to monitor, monitor, monitor, and discipline, discipline, discipline the customer service staff. Because he's plainly hiring as many jerks as, say, AA does.)

All the best,

Bill
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:27 pm

DL is obviously trying to step up their trancon flying out of JFK thru Song. However, I'm surprised they're doing this as I'm sure DL does gets MANY business travelers on this route (NYC, LA and SF = HUGE business cities). My uncle is a regular on DL's business class flights JFK-LAX-JFK.

Whatever happens, the other airlines are really going to have to step it up, including JetBlue (refering to the post above)...and I thought the worst in transcon was over...

JetBluefan1
 
Trvlr
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:03 pm

DL recently dropped mainline JFK-SAN, a route dominated by AA and B6. Perhaps SAN will be another Song destination in the future.

Aaron G.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:08 pm

Hmmm...Song to SAN. Wonder what that will look like flying over Balboa Park?

Fine by me, as long as no 767's are pulled - only DA and HA have wide-bodies into SAN, and we're down to three a day from the two carriers!!

And isn't HP reducing capacity on those routes? Wonder if that has anything to do with it!
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
LUV4JFK
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:46 am

Hopefully the recently discontinued JFK-SAN route will receive a Song flight. Two flights a day was probably too much. I think a lot of the routes that Delta flies from focus or non hub cities should be flown with Song. With strong competition, Song might be the only way they could keep going. AirTran came into Delta's turf in ATL but no one will ever take that crown from Delta. Out of SLC & CVG with little or no LCC presence, I'm sure fares are sky high on routes out of those cities.

On a side note, does anyone know when Song will take over the JFK-SJU route? I heard Song was supposed to start flying the route but I don't know when.

LUV4JFK
 Big thumbs up
John F. Kennedy International Airport: Where America Greets The World.
 
N1120A
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:57 am

>UA has given up trying to cater to the low fare part of the market with their PS service. They only have economy plus and a small economy section compared to their business section.<

They only have F, J and Y+. No standard Y on the plane

>Things may need to change for UA/AA as they offer no IFE<

Well, I guess movies, music and Channel 9 (UA only) don't qualify as In Flight Entertainment any more. They don't have PTV's, but they have a whole bunch of IFE.

>DL should go DFW-FLL, DFW-LAX, JFK-DFW and DFW-SFO with song,<

Unless there is a major reversal, DFW will only have DL hub flights in about a month and a half.

>AA tried to compete with B6 and basically gave up, pulling out of SNA, <

If by SNA you mean LGB and by pulling out you mean pulling off the JFK-LGB route, then you are right
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AA767400
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:19 am

Although I have never flown Song, I hear it is pretty good. B6, On the other hand is good for short hops. I flown them many times. And can say that they have lost their touch. Cocky punks, are the norm, when it comes to Flight Attendants. JFK-LAS, was a nightmare! Full of Long Island trash, and the seatback, on the last row would not recline. Now, I take them to BUF,FLL,MCO, or anything short haul. But not long haul!

I look forward to flying Song, on the transcon route. Just hope it does not full under the same cramped chaotic mess that is a transcon, on B6.
"The low fares airline."
 
OrbitJFK
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:35 am

Aa767400...Long Island trash? Thats a bit harsh. Obviously you've never been to the real Long Island. I'm sure I could say the same about "Puerto Rican trash" on a JFK - SJU flight. Anyway, from what I heard Song sounds like a more high-end, classy, "New York" type airline. Much more character and cachet. Some biz travelers might like that.

ORBITJFK
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:01 am

Full of Long Island trash

And by saying this you mean...the 6,000 square foot mansions on the North Shore? The beaches and the beautiful homes on the water on the South Shore? The average annual income of $85,000, give or take a couple of thousand? The average cost of a decent house being over $600,000? The many Jaguars and Mercedes cars driving around?

My home is anything but "trash," come and see my town for yourself.

And since you were flying to LAS - a city where people go to win money and have non-stop fun - you should be expecting some excitement in the plane's cabin.

JetBluefan1
 
rjpieces
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:02 am

Anyway, from what I heard Song sounds like a more high-end, classy, "New York" type airline. Much more character and cachet. Some biz travelers might like that.

They try....But in reality they don't fit that classy, "New York" image.

My guess is that they will at least keep some mainline service on JFK-LAX and SFO. Just like they do with LAS where they have a Song flight and a mainline 757 flight.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:05 am

N1120a, thats why im saying they should put Song into DFW, since there will be no hub from Jan 31.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:41 am

And by saying this you mean...the 6,000 square foot mansions on the North Shore? The beaches and the beautiful homes on the water on the South Shore? The average annual income of $85,000, give or take a couple of thousand? The average cost of a decent house being over $600,000? The many Jaguars and Mercedes cars driving around?

My home is anything but "trash," come and see my town for yourself.


You can still be trash and have lots of money...see Paris Hilton as exhibit A. In fact, some of the trashiest, rudest, crudest people I have ever met were wealthy. Money doesn't equal class.

Back on topic, I'm still not sure what DL's strategy is with this move. Routes like JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO have a reasonable mix of business and leisure travel and can support a two class product. If DL puts Song on these routes, they will have a hard time keeping any higher yield traffic.

DL will simply pick up the leisure traffic that overflows from AA,UA and to a lesser extent JB. That would be ok if DL's cost structure was low enough to be a leisure airline. But even with restructuring, I don't think DL's costs are low enough to be a primarily leisure airline.

Maybe DL could offer a small F cabin on Song....about eight seats. They'd have the same IFE, the food for sale would be free and of course larger seats. It wouldn't cut out that many seats and might allow DL (Song) to be more competitive from a business perspective.


 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:01 am

A few comments.

This is not a big business market for Delta. AA/UA may get a substaintial amount of business passengers but Delta has not been able to make much progress here.

I highly doubt that this will be a mix of Song/Mainline. LAS should go all Song. SJU should go all Song.

Long Island has good parts and bad parts. I'm generalizing, but New Yorkers for the most part don't make good customer service people. Sorry it' just not your thing. I love New York, and New Yorkers but let's be frank....LOL

 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:08 am

YES


I can finally fly a cheap and good airline direct into LAX from JFK, I usually have to fly Jet Blue to LGB and than drive, I really enojoy flying into LAX.
Very good news for me.

I have to try UAs new premiunum class first.
No Vueling No Party
 
AA767400
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:14 am

Money does not equal class, and eduacation. Yes, Paris Hilton is a good example. Also does Victoria Gotti, ring a a bell?(Even though she is Jersey trash.) Just because you have a big cardboard house in Long Island, does not mean you have class. What good is a house in Long Island, if you have to drive an hour to get to the city. Which is where people really want to be. Unless of course you have 5 children.

And the whole "Puerto Rican Trash" Thing is just a low blow, since I did not include anyones race into the equation. But since you did, makes you ignorant. I will not dispute JFK-SJU, has "Puerto Rican Trash" on it. But, since JFK-SJU connects all the trashy cruise ship passengers, I can't really tell which one is worse to deal with.
"The low fares airline."
 
MAH4546
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:26 am

Although I have never flown Song, I hear it is pretty good. B6, On the other hand is good for short hops. I flown them many times. And can say that they have lost their touch. Cocky punks, are the norm, when it comes to Flight Attendants. JFK-LAS, was a nightmare! Full of Long Island trash, and the seatback, on the last row would not recline. Now, I take them to BUF,FLL,MCO, or anything short haul. But not long haul!

I look forward to flying Song, on the transcon route. Just hope it does not full under the same cramped chaotic mess that is a transcon, on B6.


Since you've flown them, they have removed the non-reclining 27th row and offer 34" of seat pitch in two-thirds the aircraft, more than any other US airline in coach outside of AA.
a.
 
sspontak
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:57 am

FlyPNS1, Good point of having a small first class cabin for the Song aircraft. That would probably work for most Song markets because a lot of high rollers with the bucks between the Northeast and Florida, CA, Las Vegas, San Juan, and Nassau. As mentioned above, it works for Air Tran which charges a small premium for the upgrade. I hope someone from Delta sees this point and adds those first class seats. That would make the Medallions happy and hold on to some of that business traffic.
Go Delta!
 
OrbitJFK
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:52 am

AA767400..I also did not include anyone's race in my equation. If someone was to say something bad about an American, should only a white person feel attacked? Don't think so. Just as you generalized Long Island, I did the same. Whatever....

How come this news hasn't been loaded onto Song's website yet? Will there be a drop in price compared to mainline?

ORBITJFK
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:57 am

Money does not equal class, and eduacation.

When I read the comment that was referring to "Long Island trash," I thought you made that account by judging people financially, etc. However, people with money are more likely to uphold themselves well, dress nicely and take care of themselves, etc.

As far as Long Island in character and personality - I have found people in Long Island that are VERY friendly. I have been welcomed with open arms and have made so many friends since moving here a couple of months ago. Then, there's the not so friendly people, and then some high nosed people. However, when walking to the train station every morning, I'm not afraid to say "hi" or nod to the person I pass on the sidewalk, etc.

Quite frankly, Long Island is like any other place as far as personalities go (there are good people, there are mean people, there are overly friendly people, etc.).

However, I have found that Long Islanders generally have more money than people in many other parts of the U.S in that the average annual income and average house value are very high. This should very minorly affect someone's personality, but it's a good point to make this in that airlines now find NYC/Long Island a more attractive destination.

So, as Aa767400 was stating about "Long Island trash," 'these people' (that I cannot identify) will be found on any flights going to or from NYC, no matter what airline - including Song. That was basically the point I was trying to make, but perhaps I hadn't stated it clearly previously. Sorry for the confusion. But for the record, I haven't found any "Long Island trash" that has been referred to.


I was thinking a bit more about those routes for Song. I think the best thing to do is put Song on 2 of the flights (including the red-eye) and leave the rest to Delta mainline, similar with what DL did to JFK-LAS.

JetBluefan1

[Edited 2004-12-09 00:00:06]
 
ord
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:02 am

"How come this news hasn't been loaded onto Song's website yet?"

The announcement of any new Song routes will be in February.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:59 am

N1120a

"AA tried to compete with B6 and basically gave up, pulling out of SNA, <

If by SNA you mean LGB and by pulling out you mean pulling off the JFK-LGB route, then you are right"

Uh. No. What I mean is SNA, although the logic isn't obvious. Here's what I was thinking: during the summer a year ago, AA was trying to aggressively compete with B6 out of JFK. They had nonstops from JFK-SNA (and, IIRC, similar SoCal airports) for next-to-nothing, and a promotion offering a free ticket anywhere on their system (which they were promoting as Worldwide as opposed to Jetblue's more limited one) for a minimal number of transcon flights (two, if I recall). I took one of those JFK-SNA flights on AA for something hideous like $119, purchased, if not the day before, then two days before the flight. The point, I think, was to try to segment the transcon SoCal market out of JFK by massively cutting the fare to the non-LAX airports. Delta did the same thing: although B6 was flying into LGB from ATL, and Airtran was flying into LAX, Delta also cut fares into places like ONT to try to pick off pax from B6. I took a Delta flight that summer nonstop from ONT-LAX for a dirt-cheap price, one-way, on short notice.

Today, AA doesn't fly nonstop to SNA (or LGB for that matter). Their attempt to pick off B6 with lots of cheap seats and the lure of their worldwide network, well, failed. That's what I was talking about, using my personal experience as an example, although it wasn't obvious.

Best,

Bill
 
BIGBlack
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:58 pm

PR trash? Very ignorant

Someone of that classic LI racism at work I guess.

As far as my fav spawn of an airline is concerned....


If Song goes transcon out of Boston, it would be something like the third or fourth time DL has tried and failed on these runs. Never mind the distinction between Song and Delta: Delta gave up because there were too many seats flying the routes. Now, they may see AA with fewer seats out of Boston (737-800s versus the 757s/767s they previously used) and fewer daily flights, too. So DL may feel that their Song unit can succeed 'this time' on Boston transcons where they failed before. Certainly, there needs to be SOMETHING new to herald Delta's gorgeous new Logan terminal that is set to debut in '05.



My company is the GC on that project and I work on it. I am at Logan daily. We are actually about to break down our trailors next week. Job is going great. We have a great team. Verdict is still out on Song gates. I keep asking and getting various answers.

P.S. I disagree about the first class thing. One the best things about song is not having to walk in and see the snooty dickheads in first class sipping their drinks like they are worth a shit or better than anyone else on board.

[Edited 2004-12-10 07:06:18]
Someone special in the air
 
Azul320
Posts: 257
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:10 pm

Shlong is green with envy and must immitate, but remember who was the smartest to think of it first?...
Excuse me, while I kiss the sky
 
BIGBlack
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:17 pm

*yawn*

That's nice Azul
Someone special in the air
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:33 pm

>or LGB for that matter<

It was JFK-LGB that they were competing with B6 on. SNA was created to give another airport choice
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
laca773
Posts: 2034
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RE: Song To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:47 pm

What happened to DL's plan to revamp their inflight service to their higher standards and philosophy of the past? I guess they don't think people like me who have taken DL many times on the LAX-JFK runs don't count and that we apreciate good inflight service, which is gone now. It's a very sad and bad joke.

Who is HP doing on their LAX-JFK service? Do you think Song will send them running once it starts?

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