lehpron
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777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:53 pm

Has anyone noticed the sheer speed of the 7E7 program? The darn thing spawned out of SC circa 2001 and Boeing was given the authority to sell them last year and it is supposed to fly in 2008. That is less than 10 years total time conceptual to flight. The 777 stated life in the early 80's after the 757/767 planes grew into their markets (I suppose), it did not fly until 1994, nearly fifteen years!

Granted the shape isn't all that different, Airbus is having a hell of a time by comparison. A3XX started in the mid-90's, then program was launch in 1999 and the first flight will be in a few months -- again less than about 10 years.

How many different things are going on that shave off the years?
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N328KF
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:02 pm

Thank IBM/Dassault CATIA.
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PanAm747
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:04 pm

Here's the analogy I like to think of: The computer that worked the Apollo moon trip fit in a warehouse. Today, the average desktop is capable of doing the same thing. It's not that the technology has changed that much, it's that it has gotten an almost inconceivably large number of times faster and more efficient. It still functions the same as it did before, but so much has been learned, the the speed of technological improvement is not linear, but exponential.

I would assume that airplane production runs along the same line. Thanks to increases in speed and capacity in computer programming, research processes are not only faster, they have immediate access to all PRIOR knowledge, and can use that to their advantage.

I think, that within our lifetimes, we will see the birthing process of new airplanes shrink dramatically.
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gigneil
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:07 pm

CATIA is a great program. I actually don't think Airbus uses it, they use something different.

IBM really has something great with their sponsorship and sales of the Dassault software. CATIA and the whole PLM software runs on IRIX, AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, and Windows - but you never hear about anyone running it on anything but AIX.

N
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:18 pm

What blew me away was that the newest version of CATIA that Boeing is using for the 7E7 not only simulates structural integration, but it allows for the software to be tested within the simulated hardware. Boeing then knows not only how the hardware will plug together, but how the software will interface with the hardware... before the first piece is built...

The whole computer/composite integration is also very cool. The computer controlled machinery that produces the fuselage barrels can control how many wraps of material to use for the -3 or -8/9 variants, so no version is too heavy.

How many different things are going on that shave off the years?

The aggressive risk-sharing venture has probably reduced the development time IMO... critical components now have even more workers focused on them...
 
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N328KF
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:26 pm

Gigneil:

You'll start seeing (if not already) CATIA show up a lot on Linux, though still on IBM hardware. IBM is gradually moving away from AIX.

And also, I figure IBM will wind up just picking up CATIA from Dassault at some point.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
N1120A
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:32 pm

>And also, I figure IBM will wind up just picking up CATIA from Dassault at some point.<

I doubt Dassault would want to give up that kind of income stream.

>The 777 stated life in the early 80's after the 757/767 planes grew into their markets (I suppose), it did not fly until 1994, nearly fifteen years!<

I believe the plane was first concieved around the 1985-1986 launch time for the 747-400
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N328KF
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:51 pm

N1120a

What if Dassault doesn't have a choice? IBM all of a sudden has a lot of extra money! (As of today)
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:57 pm

Today, even with German extreme high quality cars, the whole design is done in a joke of time.
Mostly, because markets demand that.

Take that: Mercedes brings the new E, BMW and Audi are to react. Audi being the Nr 3 traditionally, the market gives them more time. When they finally come up with a new model, it is superior to BMW and MB, because high ambition and newer. So MB and BMW are forced to react. Then Audi........ and so on...

Also, outsourcing, computer design, using famailiar design (composites are not new, just used more than before...) and so on...

Just look into here... if A or B mentions the idea of maybe starting a new project 50 years ahead of now, our friends in this forum will take that statement to make the opponent look bad...
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pilottim747
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:00 pm

The 777 stated life in the early 80's after the 757/767 planes grew into their markets (I suppose), it did not fly until 1994, nearly fifteen years!

The Boeing website says:
--"Winter 1986...Boeing begins assessing the market for an airplane sized between the 767-300 and the 747-400."
--"Dec. 8, 1989...The Boeing board of directors authorizes the company to issue firm offers for the 767-X (the development name for what became the 777)."

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atmx2000
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:07 pm

CATIA is a great program. I actually don't think Airbus uses it, they use something different.

I think they use EDS Unigraphics. I wonder if this is because Dassault is a historical competitor to the French component of EADS.

IBM really has something great with their sponsorship and sales of the Dassault software. CATIA and the whole PLM software runs on IRIX, AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, and Windows - but you never hear about anyone running it on anything but AIX.

Well the relationship originated when IBM sold their CADAM 2D CAD package to Dassault in the 80s. The original versions of CATIA ran on IBM mainframes, not UNIX workstations. Wasn't the 777 at least partly designed on a mainframe version? I don't think there will be much demand for IRIX or HPUX versions in the long run because SGI and HP's OS and platform strategy are kind of hazy. Sun's hardware is just too slow. Windows CATIA installations must be growing though. Linux is probably the future for the UNIX versions.

What if Dassault doesn't have a choice? IBM all of a sudden has a lot of extra money! (As of today)

That's probably not enough money. Plus IBM would want to still be able to work with the other CAD vendors. Owning CATIA would make that a little bit harder. However, the software business is quite different from Dassault's other business, so they might spin off completely.
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Ken777
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:09 pm

I'm still amazed that the 747 was designed with a lot of slide rulers as well as limited computer facilities. It might be that the human efforts were the primary factor in the plane being as beautiful as it is. Computers can't match people when it comes to designing something beautiful.
 
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N328KF
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:11 pm

Atmx2000:

Actually, EADS owns around 40% of Dassault. How's that for irony?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
lehpron
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:20 pm

N1120a and Pilottim747, I sit corrected.

Winter 86 to Summer 94 is about 7.5 years. For 7E7, it would be Winter (I suppose) 2002 to sometime in 2008: less than 6 years. Pretty good. Sucks that those more workers focusing on the project are not American...outsource for sure.  Sad
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atmx2000
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:21 pm

Actually, EADS owns around 40% of Dassault. How's that for irony?

You are right. Apparently it is 46%. However, the family that owns most of Dassault's shares resists a closer relationship and tries to maintain the company's independence despite the French government's predilection towards merging companies as it sees fit.
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atmx2000
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RE: 777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:24 pm

Winter 86 to Summer 94 is about 7.5 years. For 7E7, it would be Winter (I suppose) 2002 to sometime in 2008: less than 6 years. Pretty good. Sucks that those more workers focusing on the project are not American...outsource for sure

Well, maybe this will free up some brain power to think about and design Boeing's future projects like the 747Adv and the 737 successor so that they can hit the market sooner.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!

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