Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:07 pm

KLM And B777

Fri Mar 17, 2000 1:15 am

KLM is a very faithfull Boeing customer. Who thinks they will buy the 777 and which versions? KLM operates 767's, MD-11's and B747-300/-400's on longer routes.
Posts: 9315
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: KLM And B777

Fri Mar 17, 2000 1:38 am

I expect them substituting their MD11s (by the way no Boeing product when they bought them) with A330/340s, but these MD11s are relatively new so I don´t think they will be in a haste.
1. KLM is European like partner airline Alitalia who is already slowly switching to Airbus.
2. US-Partner Northwest already ordered A330s to follow their aging DC-10s.
3. Their 747 classics (mostly Combis) are either updated with new Cockpits (didn´t read anything about that recently) or beeing substituted gradually by 747-400 Combis.
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RE: KLM And B777

Fri Mar 17, 2000 1:49 am

I'm sorry, Na, I have to disagree with you on this one. I would expect KLM to order 777-200ERs to replace their MD-11s in about 2-3 years. KLM does not currently operate any Airbus aircraft and although Alitalia does, they are only A320 and A321. They replaced their A300s with 767s, and chose 747-400s to replace their -200s. Northwest ordered their A330s when the program was launched 10 years ago but, have yet to take delivery. Also, KLM ordered 737-800s and -900s when Northwest already had A320s in their fleet. This leads to another question, does anyone know when Northwest will start taking their A330s?

Best Regards,

All gave some. Some gave all.
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RE: KLM And B777

Fri Mar 17, 2000 2:02 am

I agree with Hamlet69. KLM currently operates a GE fleet of 747, 767 and MD11. I think it would make more sense to buy a variety of GE powered 777's instead of buying A330/A340. At a minimum, you are adding a new engine manufacturer to your supplier matrix.
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Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:23 am

RE: KLM And B777

Fri Mar 17, 2000 4:29 am

Add to those reasons the fact that it won't make sense to step from the MD-11 to an A330/340.

1. They don't have Combi capability. Some thing MartinAir and KLM look for.

2. The A310 has left a very foul taste in KLM's mouth.
KLM never really liked the A310 operation. It was a
nightmare from the start.

3. As far as take-off weight/payload is concerned it
doesn't make sense for KLM, and%surely not Martinair
to switch to the A330/340 from the MD-11's.
Although th A340-500/600 do have much higher TO
weights, the payload increase over the twin-engine
777 is minimal especially when considering the
superior economics of it.

4. KLM has put trust in twin-engine economics and
ETOPS. By ordering and using 767-300 ER's.
So there is no question that the company is
comfortable with ETOPS anymore.

Also that KLM has become an all Boeing operotor from a mixed operator is a possible reason, which was already mentioned, together with the engines. Also that KLM won't be able to take advantage to one of the very few advantages of an Airbus aircraft. "CCQ". It won't make sense when you own just one type of bus..........


Xander Koote
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Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: KLM And B777

Fri Mar 17, 2000 7:25 am

Theoretically, I would expect KLM to buy the triple7, but not for a while, as them and British Airways both posted losses for 1999. In fact KLM in in the process of rationalizing the operation, and are looking for buyers for some of the corporations non-vital divisions. So the likelihood of KLM buying anything that isn't already on the books is unlikely for the next few years at the minimum. Plus they seem like one of the few companies happy with the MD-11, and don't seem in a rush to rid themselves of them.

« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: KLM And B777

Fri Mar 17, 2000 1:57 pm

I heard that Kenya Airways was leasing 3 767-300ERs from KLM, which are actually leased from ILFC. Is this because KLM has too much capacity, or are they getting ready to implement a fleet change? Does anyone know?
All gave some. Some gave all.
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:07 pm

RE: KLM And B777

Fri Mar 17, 2000 4:28 pm

This would surprise me. I mean, KLM has not announced to reduce capacity but to reduce capacity growth. Reducing the fleet with 3 767's would mean ,for a not very small but nog very big airline as KLM, they are reducing actual capacity, which they have not announced to do.
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Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: KLM And B777

Sat Mar 18, 2000 12:02 am

I heard a rumour last year that KLM wants 777s for its Gulf routes, among others. KLM are expanding into the Gulf in a big way - they have daily flights to virtually every Gulf city, and the 767-300ERs they use are regularly stuffed full. They would probably go the way of Gulf Air and BA, who have replaced their 767s on the Gulf routes with A330/A340 and 777s respectively.

KLM Cuts

Sat Mar 18, 2000 12:24 am

KLM is cutting routes and aircraft, trying to return to profit. 1 767-300 has been leased to Kenya Airways (Kenya Airways' 3 767s will be new) 1 737 to Transavia, 2 F70s to Cityhopper and some F50s will be withdrawn permanently.

Long-haul flights to Karachi, Riyadh, Jeddah, Baku and Santiago will stop. Shorthaul routes to London-Gatwick and Basle/Mulhouse will also go.

Just one final point, the only long term loyalty KLM ever showed was to McDonnell Douglas, they operated every jet poduct they produced except the MD-80/90, which was when they chose the 737 in the mid-1980s.

I'd say the order is still open,
People said BA and US Airways wouldn't order the A320, SAS would buy the 737-900 etc... Airlines are businesses, and will oftten just take the cheap option!!!
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Joined: Wed Oct 13, 1999 9:40 am

RE: KLM New Routes

Sat Mar 18, 2000 1:08 am

Will KLM fly new routes if they get these new planes? Any ideas?
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 7:45 am

RE: KLM And B777

Sat Mar 18, 2000 7:30 am

As Jet Setter said KLM will be reducing capacity on some routes, that was on their inflight company news two weeks ago. The news also stated that some longhaul planes will be leased out (obviously the 767 as discussed earlier).

I don't expect them to order new planes soon. We can forgot the phasing out of the 742/743 as they are going to get the new glass cockpits. A KLM 747 captain confirmed that.

As for the M11, KL and MP seem to be very happy with them plus the M11 fits well on KLM's routes like AMS-YUL, AMS-YVR, AMS-SFO, AMS-MEM and so on.

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