ZKOJH
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NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:11 am

just been reading around and came accross this, chief executive, Ralph Norris, said it was well placed and was looking at spending $2 billion in coming years to refurbish its fleet. Another "crunch" would be in 2010 when a large number of planes would need replacing.

This can not include the 1 Billion already spent on the tripple seven's so
anyone else heard anything, anything from the big guns??!!


Vietnam time..
 
NYC777
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:24 am

Maybe converting some of the options on the 7E7's and 777's into firm orders at that point. Just speculation on my part.

[Edited 2004-12-08 19:25:25]
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
FCKC
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:29 am

Nyc777

I think the same thing.No way for them to order another type of plane.It will not make sense to add another type to a small fleet.Perhaps some A380s for LHR and LAX................really not sure.Probably more 7E7s , 777-300ERs and A321s.
 
VirginFlyer
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:01 am

ZK-OJH - I would assume the $2B figure comes from the A320s and ATR72s yet to be delivered, the 7E7s and 777s, and the Q300s (which are worth $350M). According to the information contained with the recent rights issue, the airline has the following aircraft on order:

8 777-200ER
2 7E7
6 A320
1 ATR72
17 Q300

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
bill142
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:18 am

Could this spend also include the refurbishment of aircraft and the installation of PTV's?
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:51 am

I cannot see the A380 in NZ colours yet, however I hope this will change. I think they will opt for the 773ER when the 744s are retired. I would personally like to see them invest in 744 advanced or the A380, but I feel it is unlikely at the moment.
 
777ER
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:10 am

Probably more 7E7s , 777-300ERs and A321s.

Around 2008-2009 when the B744s are due for replacement then some of the 42 long-haul options will be taken up (B773ERs). When four of the B772ERs that will be leased are due for renewal, then those four B772ERs will leave the fleet and more B7E7s will be ordered to replace them. Before 2010 all the domestic B733s will need to be replaced, the A320 family options will be taken up for the replacements. When each ATR 72 lease expires then expect the Q400 options to be taken up. The final B762ER should be gone from the fleet by next year, this will be replaced by one of the next NZ A320 to be delivered. The next A320 should be delivered in about 12 months time as the next 4 A320s that will be delivered are going to SJ (Freedom Air) The B1900Ds are basically only a few years old so these wont be replaced around 2010, unless NZ wants extra capicity on the routes served by the 1900Ds.
 
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:17 am

I cannot see the A380 in NZ colours yet
NZ don't need the A380 as they don't need the extra capicity.

Could this spend also include the refurbishment of aircraft and the installation of PTV's? no

I would assume the $2B figure comes from the A320s and ATR72s yet to be delivered, the 7E7s and 777s, and the Q300s The $2B is not on the current aircraft on order. The extra $2B is about the aircraft that will need to be ordered around 2010. Like the B744 replacement (B773ER), the 4 leased, (on order) B772ERs (B7E7s), domestic B733 (A320 family) etc

From what I understand, from 2010 NZs future fleet will be
B773ERs
B772ERs
B7E7-8 and possibly B7E7-9
A320
A319 (B733 replacement)
Q300 and possibly A400
B1900Ds
 
NYC777
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:48 am

A400? Isn't that a military transport? Why would ANZ use a military transport?
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:50 am

Nyc777

Thanks for picking that up. Yes I mean Q400
 
VirginFlyer
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:00 pm

ZK-OJH - do you have a source on this $2B figure that says it is in addition to the present aircraft on order?

777ER - the original post says the $2B is for the coming years, and the 2010 issue is something separate...

V/F
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NZ1
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:53 am

The next A320 should be delivered in about 12 months time as the next 4 A320s that will be delivered are going to SJ (Freedom Air)

The next NZ A320 is actually arriving in January and will be ZK-OJJ. ZK-OJK thru ZK-OJO will be delivered to Freedomair starting in May next year at thre rate of 1 frame every 2 months.

Perhaps some A380s for LHR and LAX................

This will never happen, not in my lifetime. Trust me on this one guys OK.

When four of the B772ERs that will be leased are due for renewal, then those four B772ERs will leave the fleet and more B7E7s will be ordered to replace them.

Not true. The 4 ILFC 772's are here for the long haul, until 2015 at least.

Around 2008-2009 when the B744s are due for replacement then some of the 42 long-haul options will be taken up (B773ERs).

The 1st 744 lease doesn't expire until 2010 except ZK-SUH which will leave in March 2006 and is not being cabin upgraded. Expect 773 orders around then.

777ER - the original post says the $2B is for the coming years, and the 2010 issue is something separate...

This figure includes the cabin upgrade, 777 delivery, remaing A320 deliveries, Q300's for Air Nelson, as well as exit C checks on various aircraft.

Hope this info clears up any misunderstandings.

NZ1

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TG992
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:10 pm

NZ1 - while you're here - the crew have been told that -SUH will be used in a strictly backup role (ie, being kept airworthy but not being given a schedule at all, ONLY used in the event of a refurbished 744 becoming u/s)

Do you have any knowledge about this yet?
-
 
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:24 pm

TG992

No mate I haven't heard this. It would make sense though. It is supposed to cease ops in March 06, but on the sheet I have, the lease doesn't expire for another 6 - 9 months, so yes it may well be used as a back-up to the other 7.

Do you mind if I ask what area you work in? I thought you were in Flight Dispatch for some reason.

Cheers
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ZK-NBT
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:27 pm

So SJ are getting 5 A320's now, makes sense since they now have 5 733's.

I always though they would keep the 4 leased 772's longer than until they ordered more 7E7's, otherwise they may as well just keep the 763's in service for longer, except they don't have the range or uplift for some flights they may be required to operate. Then again things can change between now and then. Also remember 777ER that the 7E7 carries probably 70-80 less pax than the 772.
 
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:47 pm

SJ were always going to be getting 5 A320's. Don't know where the 4 came from in the 1st place..haha

It doesn't make any difference how many 772's are leased. The bottom line is we are getting 8 to start with. The option to lease some is just creative accounting, money managing etc.

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JoFMO
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:11 pm

So as I hear SJ is replacing it' 733.

When will NZ replace the rest of it's domestic 733 fleet? Will they get the smaller 319 or just stay with 320?

Is there a chance for some 321 to Australia or Pacific Islands?
 
TG992
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:29 pm

The feedback from the A320 has not been the fantastic mainly the toilet situation and only having two at the back on Y class!

What will NZ do with these? Reconfigure them? Push them onto more Domestic routes?

So we are only going to operate 7 747's from March 06?? Will the new 777 cover its duties?

Also ZK - NBA will leave the fleet in March 05
-
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:20 pm

When will all the NZ 733s be fully phased out? Any plans of expanding the fleet after replacing it?
 
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:23 pm

When will all the NZ 733s be fully phased out? Any plans of expanding the fleet after replacing it?

No decision has been made yet, atleast not announced.

I no you have said Nz1 that ZK-SUH definatly won't get the upgrade, but what if they got another set of slots at LHR before then? Unlikely I no.

Lets see 7 744's could do

AKL-LAX-LHR (Daily, 3 aircraft)
AKL-LAX (Daily 2 aircraft)
AKL-NRT (5 weekly 1 aicraft)
AKL-MEL/BNE (Eack daily with the aircraft that come from LAX in the morning and leave in the evening, should work)

Thats 6, hmm maybe the odd one to KIX hopefully NRT might go daily 744's and thats about it so 7 could be used with that schedule, hopefully a new route to South America or something where a 777 couldn't be used for a while until ETOPS was approved maybe.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:30 pm

Why just Two 7E7s.
regds
MEL
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NZ747
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:50 pm

Im sure they will order more 7E7's when it is made.

I no you have said Nz1 that ZK-SUH definatly won't get the upgrade, but what if they got another set of slots at LHR before then? Unlikely I no.

I've been on SUH 3 times this year, and it is very dated inside the cabin, more so that the other 744's. Anyone know what that foam is that they use to full in the gaps between the bins and the sides of the aircraft? You can see it upstairs between the side storage bins and the windows. Anyway SUH is full of that and you can see big bits where passengers have picked at it and put their chewing gum.

Will SUH's interior get a spring clean??
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:19 pm

I doubt SUH will recieve too much attention as it will be leaving in 03/06. Is a route to JNB in the hat anywhere?
 
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:26 pm

I would suspect that once South African Airlines have joined the Star Alliance, JNB will be served by some form of codeshare through Perth...

V/F
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:39 pm

When will all the NZ 733s be fully phased out?
NZ will continue to operate B733s for a while, ie for about the next 5 years.

Why just Two 7E7s. The two B7E7s will replace the final two B763s that will be retired once the B7E7s are delivered

Since -SUH will be retired next year, then it wont be receiving the cabin upgrade as it would be pointless for NZ to spend several million updating its cabin
 
Planesmart
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:11 pm

Isn't the 7e7 order far short of an order at present & for the forseeable future = small transferrable / refundable deposit?
 
zonky
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:16 pm

Ordering/Launch customer of the 7E7 does seem very unlike Air NZ's traditionally conservative 'wait & see' approach to fleet selection...
 
VirginFlyer
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:39 pm

I'm pretty sure the 7E7s are firm orders now - they appear on the Boeing site as such, along with the 4 777s which are being bought directly from Boeing...

V/F
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TG992
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:32 pm

ZK-SUJ
I would love to see NZ fly to JNB, i have no idea if they are looking at that option but i know for a fact there are other cities high on the list right now...
-
 
Planesmart
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:00 pm

Not all orders are born equal.

Only a snr insider in B or NZ could tell us, but i would be pretty confident the deposit paid for the 7e7's is very small in % terms compared to the 777's, and is 100% transferrable to other models.

It's a symbolic order (especially for the benefit of Star Alliance members), so don't expect models or delivery dates to be firmed up in the 5+ years.

NZ is a small, risk averse airline, so this order is totally uncharacteristic.
 
greaser
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:04 pm

Planesmart, but they did take a right move to improve their service and offers, along with newer, more efficient aircraft. The 'airline to Middle Earth' PR cannot work forever, and so ANZ's service must be comparable to its partners and competitors. When i flew on ANZ 767, i nearly died on the 10hr flight from SIN-NZAA, seriously...NO ptvs...economy class...But that's all about to change by 2010
Now you're really flying
 
Planesmart
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:17 pm

Will definitely take delivery of the 777's, the first of many.

Don't believe the 7e7 order is anything more than window dressing, although could be related to the carbon fibre repair contract.

ANZ insiders shd be able to confirm: (1) what input the airline is having into the various models and overall design, and (2) they have appointed a project manager & formed a working group of flight, engineering and support stf.

My guesses - (1) as much as any prospective customer & (2) doesn't exist.
 
ZKOJH
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:11 pm

Can we at least start thinking on how many new destinations were looking at, on the international market, or is it top information with Ralph being away at the star alliance conference, oh check the pics out of him there really good tho' on the Star Page... I personally think, 6-8 new routes.
Vietnam time..
 
RichardJF
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:15 am

6-8 new routes would be an excellent idea for NZ.

The only difference between Emirates and every other airline is that every month or so they set up a new route. Because most international airlines have relatively static route structures they have the field to themselves.

NZ will hopefully emulate this superb strategy.
 
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NZ1
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:51 am

So we are only going to operate 7 747's from March 06?? Will the new 777 cover its duties?

Short answer is yes. You should already know this though Rob.

When will all the NZ 733s be fully phased out? Any plans of expanding the fleet after replacing it?

No decision has been made yet, atleast not announced.


Decision gas been made, in fact a while ago, but not announced, and won't be for a while yet.

Since -SUH will be retired next year, then it wont be receiving the cabin upgrade as it would be pointless for NZ to spend several million updating its cabin

SUH is here until March 2006, but won't be upgraded.

Don't believe the 7e7 order is anything more than window dressing, although could be related to the carbon fibre repair contract.

ANZ insiders shd be able to confirm: (1) what input the airline is having into the various models and overall design, and (2) they have appointed a project manager & formed a working group of flight, engineering and support stf.

My guesses - (1) as much as any prospective customer & (2) doesn't exist.


re #1 - This is happening right now.
re #2 - To say it doesn't exist would be completely untrue. Remember we are still at least 5 years away from delivery. Believe me, the 7E7 order was NOT window dressing. I am not going to elaborate further, but I think you understand what I am saying.

When i flew on ANZ 767, i nearly died on the 10hr flight from SIN-NZAA, seriously...NO ptvs...economy class...But that's all about to change by 2010

The reason the 763 is not being upgraded is because the extra weight and structural mods required would make the a/c unsuitable for many of the routes on which it currently flies.

Merry Xmas
NZ1







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NZ747
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:30 pm

Is it true that Air Fiji are interested in some AirNZ Saabs? I heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy who probably was high at the time, but is it true?
 
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:40 pm

NZ747

If Air Fiji are interested then it can only be for the 10 owned Saab340s, as the rest are leased.
 
RichardJF
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:50 pm

DVD players or DigEplayers would be good for the 763 on routes to Singapore and HongKong I would imagine.
 
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:25 pm

RichardJF -
Air New Zealand are currently trialling the use of DVD players for hire on some trans-tasman routes... I agree with you, this would also be handy as a stop gap until the upgrades or new aircraft become available.
What?
 
777ER
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:43 pm

Isn't the DVDs only avialable on the AKL-MEL route
 
RichardJF
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:38 pm

SYD-AKL-LIM-PTY twice weekly 777 with a tie up with copa. This would work nicely for NZ serving Northern South America and Central America. Have the market to yourself.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:59 pm

Dont forget that Lan Chile already serve SYD-AKL-LIM. AR goes into that region as well
 
Planesmart
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:59 pm

Nz1

Don't believe the 7e7 order is anything more than window dressing, although could be related to the carbon fibre repair contract.

ANZ insiders shd be able to confirm: (1) what input the airline is having into the various models and overall design, and (2) they have appointed a project manager & formed a working group of flight, engineering and support stf.

My guesses - (1) as much as any prospective customer & (2) doesn't exist.

"re #1 - This is happening right now."

That would make ANZ a key determining airline for 7e7 specs. No way is ANZ having that level of input. ANZ's input is similar to all prospective purchasers.

"re #2 - To say it doesn't exist would be completely untrue. Remember we are still at least 5 years away from delivery. Believe me, the 7E7 order was NOT window dressing. I am not going to elaborate further, but I think you understand what I am saying."

So which version is their firm order for? What delivery positions have they agreed? What year/s will they be taking delivery?
 
TG992
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:33 am

777ER, Aerohottie and RichardJF

Yes the DVD's are on the AKL - MEL only.

I find it interesting they have added this feature only on a Express route. Personally I feel they should have added it to a AKL - SIN or AKL - HKG route. But I guess it's just a trial

Regards
BV
-
 
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:08 am

Planesmart re your post #42. Everything I have said is true. I am at a level in the company to KNOW what is truth and what is crap. I don't say things that are untrue.

The 2 7E7's are planned for delivery in July and August 2010and are for -8 models at this stage. I am not going to disclose too much more, but YES, Air NZ most certainly IS having an input to the specs of this aircraft. I would love to show you proof and provide additional info to back myself up, but it is commercially sensitive and quite frankly not worth my job.

If you think the 7E7 order is a smokescreen, and not worth the paper it is written on, why don't YOU provide the proof to back yourself up.

NZ1
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Planesmart
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:46 am

Thanks Nz1. July & August 2010 it is then.

What build numbers have you been allocated by B?

Will you're -8 be the 1st production model in service?
 
Planesmart
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:09 am

Nz1, you would know the answer to my question re cabin air refresh rates for the 7e7.

Whats the standard & maximum (non-emergency) cabin air refresh rates (times replaced per hour) for the 7e7 at 30,000 feet, and how does this compare with other aircraft in the ANZ fleet, in particular the 747 and 737?

Bleedless engine option would appear to make it very much at the low end (unhealthy / less healthy for passengers and crew), based on the power required for heating.

In the last 25yrs, airlines have progressively lowered refresh rates to save $'s, assisted by banning smoking, although the outbreak of SARS and other diseases, saw short-term changes to airline policy, probably driven by concerns over liability.

Hopefully legislation, legal liability & consumer pressure will drive up the rates for good health reasons.
 
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NZ1
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:48 am

Sorry dude,

I don't know the answer to that question. Seems a silly question to ask though. Seems like I might have got your back up because you were dead set on the idea that the NZ 7E7 program is a joke...

Chill out
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777ER
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:24 pm

Will you're -8 be the 1st production model in service? NO NZ will not be the first airline to have 7E7-8s in service, ANA is.

TG992

Thought so. I hope the DVD option will go on the B763 routes if the trial is successful.
 
Planesmart
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RE: NZ Spending 2 Billion On New Planes

Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:44 pm

PlaneSmart question: Whats the standard & maximum (non-emergency) cabin air refresh rates (times replaced per hour) for the 7e7 at 30,000 feet, and how does this compare with other aircraft in the ANZ fleet, in particular the 747 and 737?

Nz1 response:

"Sorry dude,

I don't know the answer to that question. Seems a silly question to ask though. Seems like I might have got your back up because you were dead set on the idea that the NZ 7E7 program is a joke...

Chill out
NZ1"

Concern over passenger health is silly? Nz1 is "at a level in the company to KNOW what is truth and what is crap. I don't say things that are untrue."

The question was directed to Nz1 because he is a senior manager in ANZ, with access to information, including commercially sensitive stuff. ANZ is one of only 2 airlines with firm orders for the 7e7, and as a firm customer, is working very closely with B to determine specifications.

I've raised similar question on other threads.

Reason for my question is in theory cabin air refresh rates in aircraft using bleedless engines will be restricted to electrical power that can be generated to heat incoming air, whereas non-bleedless engines use bleed air thru a heat exchanger.

Pumping stale air through air conditioners does not make it good air. Most passengers have experienced breathing probs at some time or another on a flight. I always hope the people at the pointy end are getting good stuff.