rjpieces
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NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:28 pm

Just wondering if any NW employees have heard anything new on the proposed DTW-TLV service? Somebody posted several months ago that NW management was seriously looking at the route...Just looking for an update.

Thanks.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm

O&D regardless, I'll eat my drawers if they launch such a flight that isnt direct via EuroLand.

[Edited 2004-12-11 09:35:11]
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jetjack74
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:46 pm

Hector Adler, director of Inflight Services mentioned this during a stop in DTW when he was doing roadshows in August. I got the impression he was just throwing it out there. I agree with ConcordeBoy that it would probably stop in CDG or AMS, a n/s would be difficult to conceive, but completely out of the realm of possibility. I just wouldn't bet the farm on it.
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mats
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:47 pm

This seems like an unlikely choice, considering that New York has such a strong O&D market but with only two carriers serving the market.

I'm surprised that Delta has not re-instated service from JFK to Tel Aviv. They must be happy enough with their El Al codeshare and SkyTeam connections via Europe.

One problem might be equipment. Is there a payload restriction if Delta uses a 767-300ER instead of a 777? (When they originally served the market they used an MD-11.)

American cannot reasonably serve Tel Aviv due to some problems with the TWA route authority. United has discussed Tel Aviv service on and off, but their partner, Lufthansa, is the 2nd largest carrier in Israel. That leaves Northwest, Delta, and US Airways.

 
AA B777-200
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:15 pm

NW to TLV? Why bother and invest another 333 on a heavy competative route, when there's KLM and AF to connect out of their AMS and CDG hubs?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:19 pm

I'm surprised that Delta has not re-instated service from JFK to Tel Aviv.

...why?




Is there a payload restriction if Delta uses a 767-300ER instead of a 777?

JFK-TLV is a good 600mi longer than ATL-FCO, the furthest route DL tends to use the 763ERs on..... so I'd say yeah.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:31 pm

Route autorities US-Israel for US passenger carriers:

AA: BOS/BWI/CLE/DEN/DTW/LAX/MCI/MSP/OAK/ORD/PHL/PIT/SFO/SJC/WAS-all Israel points (7/1/91) and all US points-TLV (3/8/89)...note that TWA's route authorities to Israel no longer exist

CO: all US points-TLV (10/27/86 from EA, plus 8/22/00 on their own)

DL: BOS/DTW/EWR/IAH/JFK/MIA/MSY/PDX/PHL/TPA-TLV (10/18/91)

FX: strangely enough, they have the route authority for all US points-TLV passenger service, effective 2/13/85

NW: all US points-TLV (7/18/83)

UA: all US points-TLV (12/28/81)
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:01 pm

SHUPirate.... send me an email, got a question for you:

ConcordeBoy@gmail.com
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kkfla737
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:08 pm

When CO started EWR-TLV they were using old EA route authority? I assume CO got the authority from EA back in 1986 for one of Texas Air's famous "IOUs!"



 
acidradio
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:32 pm

Doesn't NW already codeshare that one to CO's EWR-TLV? Now THAT is a great O&D market for that route! But DTW-TLV? Are there that many Jewish people in DTW area? I don't think there are all that many (OK, you are going to find way more Arabs, hello, could this be an idea for a flight???), so your O&D probably isn't that great and do they really think that the connecting market for this is that hot?

Is there enough feed from the rest of the US in the proximity of DTW plus west of DTW to make that route work? I don't know, but I just don't see that happening, especially with LY taking the route from many major US cities to Israel, along with CO's EWR-TLV. If there is something I don't see, more power to them!
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:44 pm

ConcordeBoy

TLV is over 1400 miles further than FCO from JFK. I did TLK-EWR last may on CO's 777 and it was 11hrs and 45min. (It was on Peter Max on the way back  Smile LOL.

In any event right now there is a AC 767-200 from YYZ, an El-AL 767-200 from LAX via YYZ, and then from JFK there is an El-AL 747-400 and from EWR 2 CO 777's and 1 EL-AL 777 a day!

that is like 1400 seats a day from the North America to Israel and AF and Aitalia and Swiss, etc etc have multiple flights a day via European hubs. This market is pretty much covered.

I doubt NW could make it work from DTW except perhaps during certain times of the year.

I like your posts ConcordeBoy, keep it up!
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GLAGAZ
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:07 pm

Does anyone know if NWA are definately expanding into Europe? I was just wondering as BAA were apparently in talks regarding new flights from NWA doing either DTW-GLA or BOS-GLA. Its good to see airlines like NWA and US strengthening their tx ops as they usually generate lots of cash. Good luck to them  Smile
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EL-AL
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:15 am

I agree with 1millionflyer, the Israel-US routh are pretty much coverd, don't forget that Israel's population is only 6 million residents.

By the way, AC uses B767-300ER (not -200ER) on thier YYZ-TLV-YYZ routh.

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Ezra
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:31 am

Originally posted by SHUPirate1:

Route autorities US-Israel for US passenger carriers:
DL: BOS/DTW/EWR/IAH/JFK/MIA/MSY/PDX/PHL/TPA-TLV (10/18/91)



How hard would it be for DL to obtain route authority for ATL-TLV, and have they ever considered trying?
 
fjnovak1
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:31 am

Are there that many Jewish people in DTW area? I don't think there are all that many (OK, you are going to find way more Arabs, hello, could this be an idea for a flight???), so your O&D probably isn't that great and do they really think that the connecting market for this is that hot?

There aren't as many Jewish people in the Detroit area as perhaps in the New York/Long Island/New Jersey area, but I'd say that outside of that market and maybe south Florida there are more in SW Michigan than anywhere else. I know this well, i'm Jewish and from Michigan... A twice or three times weekly nonstop might just work, especially during summer months when local Jewish organizations organize youth service trips - currently El Al comes to DTW multiple times every summer with 744's servicing these Teen Missions as charter flights.

There are, however, about as many Jews in Michigan as there are Arabic folks believe it or not.
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jetjack74
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:39 am

Are there that many Jewish people in DTW area?
Well, more than that. There are some Muslim-American population who's homeland is only accessible thru TLV. Also, it's all about connections as well. NW may offer an alternative for a market that could use competition.
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EL-AL
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:52 am

I Don't think the Israelis will fly Delta Airlines again.

Delta had a line to Israel from JFK in the 90s using B763ERs. Because of the 9000km between TLV and JFK, thier sometimes had to stop in SNN in order to refuel the jet, and after few years they stopped flying.

In summer 2001 Delta started to fly to TLV again, this time using MD-11. The plane itself was good, but they had other problems. for example, only on the secend day of operation they cencelled the flight to Tel Aviv due to terror attack happend that day (1/6/01) in the city and the passengers flew, after a major delay, in El Al B747-200 old jet (LY dont use the 742 to North America anymore).
After that they cencelled flights to TLV sevral times due to political events in Israel, and eventually they closed the line only 3 months after the first flight.

That left very bad immpression of the airline among the Israelis, it is importent to meny of them that airline will fly to Israel in the difficult days as well (Like Tower Air in 1991). Delta looked very bad way in the Israeli media at the time.

I don't think Delta will fly in the near future to Tel Aviv - Ben Gurion again. To be honest, Continental is doing a very good job...

every day is a good day to fly
 
mats
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:58 am

I don't think that the Jew or Arab population of a particular US city is as significant as business ties. After all, the US major airlines make their money (or lack thereof) from business travellers. It's true that there are more Jews in New York than in Israel, but it is the business ties that keep the route profitable.

EL-AL, you're right, Delta did have trouble with their initial few days of the MD-11 service. But I thought that their earlier 767-300ER service was via Paris, so a fuel stop wouldn't be so likely. Are you sure you aren't thinking of TWA, who did fly a nonstop 767-300ER between JFK and Tel Aviv? I think that Delta only flew the nonstop flights with MD-11 equipment.

 
dutchjet
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:15 am

I am not sure if NW is serious about a DTW-TLV flight, but it probably could work with a daily A332 service due to the power of the Detroit hub; except for passengers leaving from or headed to the northeastern US, Detroit is a good hub location for flights to and from Europe. I am not sure about O&D numbers for a DTW-TLV route, but this route would be all about connection possibilities and this flight could be an alternative for passengers who would rather not connect in NYC. Fares and yeilds on US-Israel flights are also rather good - and there is very good demand for premium cabin seats. I am rather sure that cargo demand is strong.

As for the potential of such a flight, the market probably has more potential than we might expect and is far more complex than jewish and arab people heading back to their homeland. Tourism is huge (even with all of the political trouble in the region), Tel Aviv is a major business center and Israel has become active in many high-tech and other industries, ranging from diamonds to aviation. Aside from the existing LY and CO services, many passengers originating both in Israel and the US fly on European carriers between the 2 countries to avoid connections in NYC (SFO-FRA-TLV can be easier than SFO-JFK-TLV). Look what happened when CO opened the EWR-TLV route - did anyone really expect CO to operate two 777s per day on that route (12 flights per week in the winter).....thats more seats than CO offers between EWR and London, Paris or code-share partner KLM's hub in Amsterdam.

The other point is that NW would not face much competition on a service to TLV from other American carriers......as pointed out above, DL is not going back to TLV in the near term future, nor is AA after the fiasco involving the TWA pensions, and Star Alliance partners UA and US have TLV covered via LH's large operations at TLV.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:59 am

This route will not happen anytime soon.

NW doesn't want to touch TLV with a 10 foot pole.

Remember all the rumors about all these other European cities that NW is/was/were/had/thought about flying to......Look how many have happened...

MAN was the only thing that almost came true. But people swore they were gonna start service to Athens, Dublin, Olso, Milan, Moscow, etc, etc......

They don't start routes just because there is a large population of a certain ethnic group in one city. How many times to YOU travel back to where you grew up???
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:42 am

The 767-300ER can fly JFK-TLV easily. It has done so for TWA until its demise (although the route used to be flown with a 747-100/200).

ContinentalEWR
 
toltommy
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:53 am

EL-AL, When DL acquired PA's european network, they acquired a TLV-CDG-JFK route authority, and a FA base at TLV. The air services agreement at the time wouldn't allow DL to overfly CDG. As a result, DL was at a disadvantage to certain flag carriers (and TWA), who could fly their 747's nonstop. So DL withdrew from the route authority, and closed the crew base in TLV. The plan was to codeshare with Swissair to replace the service for the diehard DL flyers.
 
legendDC9
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:14 am

Israel may only have a population of 6.5 mil or so, but they if you ever flown on that route consistently, you would see it is full almost any time of year in any direction. Plus, you do not get those $300 fares like you do going to London, every ticket on a TLV flight is at least $800 with most well over $1000. That route makes money instantly, just ask CO. It will be a wise move on NW to open that market, they can just sit back and watch the money roll in.
 
klwright69
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:56 am

I have suggested this before.....

Does anyone think CO will add a third flight to TLV, maybe during the summer? Maybe several times a week, not daily. Maybe a midday departure from EWR and an early a.m. arrival in TLV. Then there would be an earlier departure back to EWR from TLV.

I know their 777's are scarce, but if they could get an available aircraft somehow, I bet they might consider it. Since other U.S. carriers seem to have "issues" with TLV service, and CO seems very satisfied.

People talk about TLV having a double daily 777 on CO. I thought EWR-LGW was also?
 
nwacrew
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:41 am

I worked New York-Tel Aviv flights in the 80's with both Metro International Airways and their successor, Tower Air. The vast majority of passengers were not Israeli's - they were Jewish Americans. I know this for certain, because I used to walk through the cabin distributing I-94's.

With the largest Arab-American population in the United States living in and around Detroit, Northwest would do better to look at Muslim destinations in the Middle East, rather than a Jewish destination. Let our partner Continental continue to serve Tel Aviv from Newark; they have the home advantage.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW DTW-TLV Rumors

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:46 am

With the largest Arab-American population in the United States living in and around Detroit, Northwest would do better to look at Muslim destinations in the Middle East, rather than a Jewish destination. Let our partner Continental continue to serve Tel Aviv from Newark; they have the home advantage.

I have to agree, maybe that is why NW is eventually going to fly to Baghdad as they already have approval to do so once things settle down. DTW-AMS-ORBS DC-10 (by the time it gets going, it will likely be an A330)

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