kkfla737
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AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:51 pm

At this point in time in late 2004, American Airlines who only began service to Miami 25 years ago in 1979 is the dominant domestic carrier at MIA facing very little competition on on-hub routes for other airlines. AA is also the airports largest international operator. When AA began Miami service in 1979, MIA was one of the most competitive airports in the nation and American was not even on the radar screen.

Miami based Eastern was in 1979, the free world’s second largest airline (behind United) and the largest operator at MIA with over 100 daily flights, without a hub structure of any sort. EA offered MIA flights to points north and Caribbean with great frequency. EA’s presence throughout Florida was at the time massive, with over 30 flights a day from MIA, FLL TPA, and MCO despite having only 1 true hub (Atlanta) in the system.

Pan Am and Miami based National Airlines merged in 1980. They were two of the largest operators from MIA and the merger which was predicted by some to be a watershed for Pan Am, giving it much needed domestic feeder routes to bring passengers into PA’s extensive Int’l route structure. Miami was at the time PA’s second largest US station behind JFK

Braniff Int’l had extensive routes from Miami to Central and South America.

Delta, despite having no international flights was Miami’s second largest domestic operator. Delta had been a large presence at MIA and nearby FLL since the 1972 merger with Northeast Airlines. Delta had several nonstop flights from MIA to major cities in Northeast and Midwest, and had a virtually identical flight structure from FLL making them a major player in the entire market.

Air Florida, also based in Miami was expanding somewhat recklessly after deregulation.


With all of these major airlines operating hub/focus city type operations from MIA, how did AA end up besting all of them and then consolidating control of the market?

My accuracy on the following events maybe off a bit, but here are some key dates as I remember them, and hopefully some of our MIA experts can chime in on how they remember things.


After the PA/NA merger, the new larger Pan Am proved to be unmanageable and started bleeding badly. Flights were cut from MIA to several domestic destinations, and the value of the National purchase was really undermined. Air Florida was partly responsible for PA’s problems as they were providing intense low far competition. PA also would trim int’l flights out of MIA- between PA and NA they had served 5 European cities nonstop from MIA in 1980. By 1982, Pan Am had cut service to everywhere but London.

Braniff went under completely in 1982, and EA was awarded the Braniff South American routes over Pan Am. This gave EA the ability to turn their hdq city into a legitimate hub/connecting city operation. EA now held a large lead over PA in Miami, but of course Delta pretty consistently held a large portion of the domestic market. Air Florida was also a major player on routes to the Northeast, Caribbean and Europe.

Air Florida after years of uncontrolled growth went belly up. Before QF went under, Pan Am pushed again to increase their domestic share out of MIA with the Pan Am Air bridge flights to TPA and MCO. After Air Florida was gone, Pan Am began flying from MIA nonstop to most of its limited domestic network.

Eastern struggled with labor problems and money losses. EA’s market share at Miami remained constant, but the Airline’s overall size was shrinking quickly in the Frank Lorenzo Texas air period (1986-1989). What was once the free world’s largest airline was now the 6th largest domestic carrier and slipping fast.

Bob Crandall was watching developments closely in Fort Worth sensing opportunity. In August 1988, AA announced the opening of a Miami crew base. At the time AA had zero non-hub flights from Miami.

Eastern went on strike on March 4, 1989, and filed for CH 11. Though EA would make a comeback before failing two years later, that would largely be based around its Atlanta hub. The Miami operation was for all intents and purposes “for sale,” and nobody wanted it more than AA.

Pan Am in mid 1989 was also close to death having just suffered badly due to the Lockerbie tragedy. Pan Am executive decided to dig in and protect Miami from AA coming in. This included actively lobbying Latin American governments not to give authority to AA proposed flights, and also a major expansion of the Miami hub of Pan Am.

In late 1989 AA began to offer more domestic service from Miami to major cities as well as increasing Caribbean destinations.

By mid 1990, Pan Am was nearly the size at MIA that EA had been prior to CH 11. Also in mid 1990, EAs Latin American and Miami-London route and Miami-Madrid authority were transferred to AA.

In mid 1991, Pan Am sold it’s entire Atlantic operation (minus the Miami-Paris route) to Delta. This effectively took PA out of the JFK market and allowed it with Delta’s financial backing to fight a one front war versus AA @ MIA. At this time AA and PA were at virtual parity out of MIA.

Late 1991, Pan Am goes under and American has Miami uncontested for a while. However, the bankruptcy court awards PA’s Latin American routes to UA and DL picks up some assets from estate of EA (including service to Toronto) in addition to the MIA-LGW and MIA-FRA routes previously transferred from Pan Am. Many people, myself included felt at the time because of DL’s traditional ties to the MIA market, ties that AA and UA lacked, that they would go after much of the domestic market from Miami. They never did.

By late 1992 AA’s MIA hub is larger than EA’s or PA’s hubs had ever been. United begins flying Latin American routes from Miami, but with a much reduced schedule from Pan Am’s flying and without any domestic feeder operation except from UA hubs/focus cities.

Mid- 1995, UA seems to be hanging on as a distant second in Miami, but with the closing of AA’s RDU and BNA hubs more and more domestic flying is being done from Miami.

1997 UA begins service to Lima the first non former PA route UA has flown from MIA. Maybe UA is finally realizing the potential of being the other big carrier at MIA.

2002 UA begins pulling down Miami. At the same time AAs daily departures surpasses the total of EA and PA in their heyday COMBINED.

2004 AA is virtually uncontested on most domestic routes from MIA and faces no competition from other US carriers on Int’l routes.
 
ckfred
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:51 pm

Kkfla737:

This is a very good chronology of AA's rise at MIA. Although AA is the 900-pound gorilla at MIA, certainly it's feeling some heat from WN and B6 flying into FLL for O&D traffic into the Miami metro area.

 
AAplatnumflier
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:25 pm

Are they going to operate the 777 from LAX-MIA again??
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:11 pm

In mid 1991, Pan Am sold it’s entire Atlantic operation (minus the Miami-Paris route) to Delta

...forgetting about a lil' place called Heathrow?  Big grin
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SHUPirate1
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:17 pm

ConcordeBoy-Ummm...I don't think he's forgetting it at all...if I'm not mistaken, hadn't "that lil' (sic) place called Heathrow" been long-since tossed over to United already?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:45 pm

hadn't "that lil' (sic) place called Heathrow" been long-since tossed over to United already?

separated by a lil' bit... but still 1991
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:46 pm

Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
kkfla737
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:04 pm

The Heathrow routes were sold in Spring 1991 about 4 or 5 months before the Delta deal took place. The reason I did not include them was because Pan Am kept the Miami-London route after the sale. United flew the route for a month or two on behalf of Pan Am but the route reverted back to Pan Am and was flown to Gatwick before Delta purchased the remaining Pan Am European routes. Another blow to PA IMHO was the previous year when German reunification forced PA to give up its IGS operation. The internal routes in Germany to/from Berlin were major money makers for Pan Am even in the worst of times.
 
AAR90
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:15 am

Are they going to operate the 777 from LAX-MIA again??

Not likely. Domestic 777 flights are operated to position a backup 777 to protect international flights. The LAX-MIA flight only operated during a time when there was no DFW "spare" acft (sheduled heavy maintenance). AA prefers to route the 777 spares to/from DFW due to costs.
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FlewGSW
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:21 am

Great post!!!

Issue: AA getting Eastern's (Braniff's) South America routes.
This happened in late 1991. With those routes, AA also got Flight Attendants based in Buenos Aires, Bogota and Lima. There was a rush to get a contract with AA's flight attendant union APFA to allow those F/As to travel to Miami, but not beyond, not to any other airport in the USA, and can not fly with APFA members unless it is to avoid a flight cancellation. Years later, a F/A crewbase in Santiago, Chile was opened. There can be no more than 749 total F/As in all 4 crewbases combined at any time.
 
Thrust
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:35 am

I would have to assume that AA acquired MIA-LHR from UA, who got it from Pan Am?
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aa777flyer
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:14 am

<:i>Are they going to operate the 777 from LAX-MIA again??

Not likely. Domestic 777 flights are operated to position a backup 777 to protect international flights. The LAX-MIA flight only operated during a time when there was no DFW "spare" acft (sheduled heavy maintenance). AA prefers to route the 777 spares to/from DFW due to costs.<-:i>


As a footnote the daily RT 777 DFWLAX goes away next year as well
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EA CO AS
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:07 am

Issue: AA getting Eastern's (Braniff's) South America routes.
This happened in late 1991.


Try again. EA went out of business in January 1991, and had long since sold off the South American route system to AA by then.

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AAplatnumflier
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:48 am

Man...that LAX-DFW flight on that 777 is the greatest....in my opinion it is stupid to take it away because you have so many business travelers on that plane who know about planes and I noticed that they carry cargo on it too. I hope they bring it back in time. But AA's dominance at MIA is only surpassed by their dominance at DFW in my opinion. I think that AA should make MIA as DFW is and then add LAX too it as they are all in good places for connection citys.
 
FlewGSW
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:20 am

http://www.aa.com/content/amrcorp/corporateInformation/facts/history.jhtml

"Also in 1990, American expanded its Latin American service with routes acquired from Eastern Airlines, with Miami as the focal point of the expansion."
 
DB777
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:51 am

Pretty good synopsis of what happened, Kkfla737.

In response to a couple of posts towards the end, AA bought EA's Latin American routes a year or two before Eastern totally died in January 1991. If AA got the routes in late 1991 as stated above, that would mean the routes were dormant for almost a year which would never happen.

The MIA-LHR route was discussed recently and I can't remember what we ultimately discovered. AA had the MIA-LGW run (ex Air Florida and Eastern route). Somehow AA ended up with LHR instead of LGW. The MIA-LHR run (original National and then Pan Am) was switched to MIA-LGW and United operated it for a month or so and then Delta operated it for a year or so before moving it to a blocked seat alliance with Virgin Atlantic.

The AA link posted above about AA's commitment to Miami is interesting in that they make it sound like they've invested all those millions in new terminals, buildings, refurbishments, etc. Most of those expenditures were either totally or very close to totally paid for by MIA's Aviation Department and will be recouped through aviation fees on all carriers and rental rates. But it wouldn't be interesting reading if it said "AA paid 3% (or whatever) of such and such a project." would it?

I won't mention hired lobbyists or political maneuvering because I had a previous post deleted recently for mentioning the politics of how an airline gets things accomplished in their favor, but here are other facts regarding the AA information link posted above:

.....1. The AA cargo warehouse is not on the north side of the airport but the west side. As with virtually all airport construction projects, the costs were totally, or close to totally, paid by the airport. The AA cargo warehouse was originally supposed to be further west over near the ATC Towers but they demanded and got the closest, and choicest, warehouse area to the tunnel under runway 12/30 to minimize driving distance compared to other cargo operator locations.

.....2. The huge former National/Pan Am hangar sat vacant for years with no absolutely no rental income because AA wanted it in the future and no one else could lease it. The majority of the office building floors that anchor the cantilevered roof of the hangar are unleased and vacant since Pan Am died 13 years ago. The refurbishment costs of the hangar were almost totally paid, if not totally, by the airport.

.....3. In regards to the North Terminal project:

..........a. it is now $1 billion more than what was proposed about 10 years ago. AA demanded, and got, the unique right at MIA to manage the construction project even though the airport is paying the huge majority of the construction costs. AA felt that the airport's management of the project would suffer delays and cost overruns, which is exactly what happened with AA managing it.

..........b. it is now expected to open sometime in 2008, not 2007 as stated.

..........c. no one bothers to include the costs (hundreds of millions) of building a new runway (8L-26R, formerly 8-26) with the costs of the new North Terminal but it was built primarily to accommodate all the AA aircraft that will be operating to and from the north side of MIA's main terminal.

...............(1) no one bothers to include the loss of hundreds of maintenance jobs forever from the local economy, and leasing revenue forever, from the former Eastern Contract Maintenance hangar that had to be torn down because of conflict with the new runway. The hangar was leased by numerous small MRO companies that did contract maintenance work for a variety of small airlines and air cargo companies. Gone, forever.

...............(2) no one bothers to include the costs of the loss of ramp space to the south of the former Eastern L1011 hangar (most recently leased by Commodore Aviation which has moved out for Rome, NY) and the former Eastern maintenance hangars east of the L1011 hangar (most recently leased by Fine Air/Arrow Air which vacated the premises) that has rendered the hangars to be almost worthless to potential MRO companies because you can't park more than a couple of aircraft outside them or they'll conflict with the new runway's safety zones.

...............(3) no one bothers to include the loss of numerous cargo loading positions and aircraft parking positions on the north side of old 9L-27R (now 8R-26L) or the substantial revenue that most of them generated. A B747-100/200/300 freighter would pay $230 a day just to park on one of these parking positions. If they use a cargo loading position the fee is $200 for the 1st 6 hours, $40 an hour for each hour after 6 up to a 24-hour maximum of $500. Add $300 a day to either the aircraft parking fee or the cargo loading fee if they do major maintenance while there.

..........d. no one includes the costs of building a much taller ATC Tower that was built to see over the top of the new North Terminal because a view of a portion of 8R-26L (former 9L-27R) and taxiways Mike and November were blocked by the height of the new North Terminal. The new tower project was built by the FAA but reimbursed by the airport's Aviation Department. The former ATC Tower, built less than 20 years ago at great expense, now sits vacant and will be torn down in the future. It's your public dollars hard at work.

..........e. the link states "The new North Terminal is being built for use by American and its partners will be comparable to facilities being developed for other carriers under other parts of the County's overall $4.8 billion capital improvement program for the airport", leading one to believe that everyone is equal but that is far from the truth. What about all the other airlines on Concourses E, F and G? I would consider most of Concourse H to be comparable and certainly whoever moves to the new South Terminal will have comparable facilities, but what about those carriers who will still be stuck on E, F and G? G is the oldest concourse, with small gate hold rooms and with no underground hydrant fueling (add a penny or two per gallon for tankered fueling not to mention the inconvenience) and yet they have to pay the same landing and concourse fees as American?

.....4. The link mentions that AA now has more operations than Eastern and Pan Am combined at the peak of their success and that they have approximately 9,000 employees in the area with a payroll exceeding $415 million. That's admirable at first glance but since AA is comparing themselves to Eastern and Pan Am, let's point out that most people don't notice:

..........a. that they fail to mention that the vast majority of their employees in Miami are lower paid ramp workers, ticket counter and gate agents, etc. The pilot crew base at MIA accounts for the vast majority of the higher wage jobs, thus driving up the average to $46K a year (based on $415 million divided by 9,000 jobs), but one has to question the percentage of the pilots who commute to MIA for their trips because the quality of life for raising a family is better elsewhere? The Miami economy is lucky if these pilots spend $5 in the terminal in between their commuting trip and their working trip. It certainly doesn't compare favorably to the days when the vast majority of Eastern and Pan Am pilots actually lived down here and spent their relatively high wages here. I remember several Eastern and Pan Am pilots in my neighborhood until the death of Pan Am and now there are no airline pilots that I know of in the area except for one who flies for a local cargo airline.

..........b. they fail to mention that Eastern had approximately 13,000 jobs and that Pan Am had approximately 8,000 jobs in Miami. That's 21,000 combined EA/PA jobs versus 9,000 AA jobs. That is hardly equivalent but it gets worse when you consider the below factors.

..........c. they fail to mention that both Eastern and Pan Am had many highly paid corporate executives and management members based in Miami, along with highly paid engineers, analysts, pilot training executives and specialists, computer system analysts, programmers, operators, etc. These folks lived here and spent their money here. Those positions with AA are at DFW and Tulsa, hardly benefitting the Miami area.

..........d. they fail to mention that both Eastern and Pan Am had aircraft maintenance bases in Miami, employing thousands of highly paid IAM mechanics, avionics technicians, stock specialists, etc. AA's maintenance force in Miami is a mere fraction of what used to be here with Eastern and Pan Am. The Eastern and Pan Am maintenance employees could actually afford to buy a home down here and spend money on new cars, home improvements, boats, dining out, etc. Try and do that on the average American ramp worker's or ticket agent's current wage levels, which might be cut again in the future as AA tries to lower their costs to obtain profitablility.

..........e. they fail to mention that the air fares on Eastern and Pan Am were more reasonable at the time compared to today because of the competition between them and other carriers serving MIA. It used to be great to be able to fly out of MIA on very affordable fares but now a lot of us drive to FLL to do so.

.....5. AA's link mentions carrying 15 million passengers through MIA but what percentage of those passengers actually spent time in the area on hotels, restaurants, rental cars, etc.? The availability of all these flights is important to our area but the O&D travelers now going to FLL would be of more economic benefit to Miami-Dade county as a whole. How much economic benefit does a passenger who never leaves the terminal between connecting flights generate for a locally owned business or resident?

.....6. AA's link fails to mention that a hub carrier generally charges higher air fares (just ask the folks in the DFW area) and certainly that is the case at MIA. While they have recently dropped fares for Miami, it is both too little and too late because the carriers at FLL have already attracted the majority of South Florida's O&D traffic. With South Florida's geographic center of population shifting further and further north, FLL is more centrally located for the majority of travelers in South Florida. And quite frankly, AA would have to charge considerably less than the competition at FLL to attract a lot of Broward and Palm Beach county residents to drive south to use MIA, and the odds of that happening are slim to none. If they are losing money with high air fares how much more would they lose with lower air fares below their costs?


In summary: I've said it before, but yes, AA is good for Miami. But Miami is even better for AA.
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kkfla737
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:04 am

"b. they fail to mention that Eastern had approximately 13,000 jobs and that Pan Am had approximately 8,000 jobs in Miami. That's 21,000 combined EA/PA jobs versus 9,000 AA jobs. That is hardly equivalent but it gets worse when you consider the below factors.

..........c. they fail to mention that both Eastern and Pan Am had many highly paid corporate executives and management members based in Miami, along with highly paid engineers, analysts, pilot training executives and specialists, computer system analysts, programmers, operators, etc. These folks lived here and spent their money here. Those positions with AA are at DFW and Tulsa, hardly benefitting the Miami area.

..........d. they fail to mention that both Eastern and Pan Am had aircraft maintenance bases in Miami, employing thousands of highly paid IAM mechanics, avionics technicians, stock specialists, etc. AA's maintenance force in Miami is a mere fraction of what used to be here with Eastern and Pan Am. The Eastern and Pan Am maintenance employees could actually afford to buy a home down here and spend money on new cars, home improvements, boats, dining out, etc. Try and do that on the average American ramp worker's or ticket agent's current wage levels, which might be cut again in the future as AA tries to lower their costs to obtain profitablility."


Thank You, Thank You, Thank You! I have made this point to any number of people who argue with me that everything worked out well for MIA, because according to tehir logic we have a stronger airline with a larger hub, than having two weak airlines with smaller hubs. I point out that EA was based in Miami and Pan Am was virtually based at Miami (and was an originally a Florida airlines, unlike AA who did not serve Florida at all until 1979). Both airlines had maintence bases in Miami and relatively speaking Miami was a much larger part of both airliens total network than AA. (Particularly Pan Am towards the end).
 
kkfla737
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:12 am

Note also that Delta is protecting FLL at all costs unlike the mistake they made with MIA I discussed in my thread starter. Thus, FLL is going to get even more O&D traffic on nonstops to cities not served from Miami at all. In the days of EA and PA that was totally unheard of. Right now Delta and Air Tran and perhaps some other carriers as well fly to several cities nonstop from FLL that are not served from Miami nonstop at all.

 
moman
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:17 am

Good post DB777:

You got that right about the population shift north toward West Palm Beach from MIA. It seems like the people keep moving north to get away from the rot that Miami has become, and anyone who lives in Florida knows what I mean.

Moman
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
N62NA
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:24 am


It seems like the people keep moving north to get away from the rot that Miami has become, and anyone who lives in Florida knows what I mean.

Have to disagree with you there, Moman. I live in Miami and think it beats Broward County hands down.

Miami is a world class destination city, Broward County is a suburb.

Oh, and Kkfla737, great topic. I truly appreciate the time you put into the thread starter!
 
moman
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:26 am

N62NA:

Not disagreeing with you, but the rich northerners who are coming down are moving more and more to Jupiter, Hobe Sound, West Palm beach and those communities are where the money is now, not necessarily Miami and further south.

Moman
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flymia
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:53 pm

The money is in Miami. An Studio Apartment in Mid Town Miami. Around Biscayne and 36th or for others that don't know the area near downtown cost $200,000. Houses that cost around $700,000 on the water six years ago now cost 2.5 million dollars. This is in the city of Miami not a suburb.
Many are moving Downtown. Hence the reason there are more than 8,000 new apartments going up in Downtown Miami. A new building is introduced every day.
Downtown Miami is now the place to live in South East Florida.
Broward County is a nice suburb but Miami is a world class city. But even Downtown Ft. Laurderdale is getting new buildings up too. Not sure about the PBI area.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
kkfla737
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:54 pm

My feeling is that each of 3 airports in SoFla have a constituency- but then there are those who are in-between, somewhat equadistant from FLL and either MIA or PBI (ie. Aventura, North Miami, Delray Beach, Boynton Beach, etc) who are the people who can be truly one over by the amount of service and fares from FLL over MIA or PBI.
 
DB777
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:51 pm

Here's a link to a new article in the South Florida Business Journal titled "Worst Case is Worrisome for MIA."

http://southflorida.bizjournals.com/southflorida/stories/2004/12/13/story1.html?page=1
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jeffie813
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:34 am

The money is in Miami. An Studio Apartment in Mid Town Miami. Around Biscayne and 36th or for others that don't know the area near downtown cost $200,000. Houses that cost around $700,000 on the water six years ago now cost 2.5 million dollars. This is in the city of Miami not a suburb.
Many are moving Downtown. Hence the reason there are more than 8,000 new apartments going up in Downtown Miami. A new building is introduced every day.
Downtown Miami is now the place to live in South East Florida.
Broward County is a nice suburb but Miami is a world class city. But even Downtown Ft. Laurderdale is getting new buildings up too. Not sure about the PBI area.


between the three counties, palm beach, broward, and dade, the amount of development is unbelievable. however out of the three, palm beach county (including downtown west palm beach) leads in new development for one reason: we have space. the population shift northward towards palm beach, martin, and st. lucue counties is undisputed. downtown west palm beach gets the high rise condos, and everywhere else you get the sprawling gated communities. it's also interesting that of the 14 new condos (and high-rise hotel) going up in west palm beach, half are being developed by miami based developers who constantly comment in the news that miami doesn't present the same development opportunities as west palm.
 
miaskies
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:55 am

Stick the topic people = AA and MIA

not what county is what.....My Opinion = West Palm etc...is a dump, outside of Boca and other areas...Palm Beach county is quite ...awful.

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flymia
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:13 am

In that worst case senerio article MIA would be the last hub AA would leave. In the very unlikely chance that AA was to go out of busisness I sure some other airline would take routes and over time the Hub.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
aa777jr
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:06 am

As a footnote the daily RT 777 DFWLAX goes away next year as well

Why?
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
scotron11
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:47 am

It seems the same way at DFW. Whatever AA wants it gets! Great post though!
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:58 am


between the three counties, palm beach, broward, and dade, the amount of development is unbelievable. however out of the three, palm beach county (including downtown west palm beach) leads in new development for one reason: we have space. the population shift northward towards palm beach, martin, and st. lucue counties is undisputed. downtown west palm beach gets the high rise condos, and everywhere else you get the sprawling gated communities. it's also interesting that of the 14 new condos (and high-rise hotel) going up in west palm beach, half are being developed by miami based developers who constantly comment in the news that miami doesn't present the same development opportunities as west palm.


The majority of new development is in Miami-Dade County, not Palm Beach. Miami-Dade County and south Broward have roughly 100 developments under construction and 100 more in the late planning stages perparing for construction. The difference is that Miami-Dade's (and most of Broward's) development is all vertical, while a lot of it in Palm Beach is new residential communities, which Palm Beach County's empty land and sprawl can support.

As a footnote the daily RT 777 DFWLAX goes away next year as well

Why?


It is a positioning flight. It is not there because people like 777s on DFW-LAX. AA simply doesn't need to position the 777 into/out of LAX anymore. Just like AA's new MIA-JFK 777 flight, which starts this week, is a positioning flight as well.
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jeffie813
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:29 am

The majority of new development is in Miami-Dade County, not Palm Beach. Miami-Dade County and south Broward have roughly 100 developments under construction and 100 more in the late planning stages preparing for construction. The difference is that Miami-Dade's (and most of Broward's) development is all vertical, while a lot of it in Palm Beach is new residential communities, which Palm Beach County's empty land and sprawl can support.

MAH you're usually always right so i try to do my homework before telling you you're incorrect. so here it goes: you're incorrect.

i looked up this information because it's people like MIASkies and MAH4546 who think that south florida revolves around miami....well - that's not the case. the trend is northward boys whether you love miami and MIA or not. and MIASkies, if we're talking about dumps, i think i'll take pictures tonight when i go to the heat game. are you blind or do you wear sunglasses as you're driving through downtown miami near the arena passing hundreds and hundreds of homeless people and vacant buildings?

anyway, according to economic indicators produced from business development boards of all three counties (they all have information for only the 1st qtr of 2004), palm beach county issued the most residential building permits, worth the most money. i couldn't locate the number of permits miami-dade issued but total 2003 value (in millions) was $2,855.4. this was commercial and residential combined! broward county residential permits issued in 2003 were at their lowest levels in twelve years with a total of 8,217 issued (no values published). In their own words: "The decline of permit activity in Broward County reflects the shrinking availability of land for new development." palm beach county issued 14,730 permits worth $2,397,040,697. again, that doesn't include commercial development and palm beach county is on track to beat the numbers again. by the way MAH west palm beach has 8 condos in development that are high rises, including two 37 story twin towers. i have all the PDF's saved if you would like to read them.
 
moman
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:40 am

Jeffie:

Thanks for the information. I don't need to see any numbers, anyone who lives or vists the area should be able to see the same thing you said unless they are in denial or have wool over their eyes. Here on the west coast of FL everyone wants to go to Port St. Lucie, Jupiter, West Palm Beach. Miami is a "stay away at all costs place" unless you want to drive real fast through to south beach.

Moman
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AAR90
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:55 am

As a footnote the daily RT 777 DFWLAX goes away next year as well

Why?

It is a positioning flight. It is not there because people like 777s on DFW-LAX. AA simply doesn't need to position the 777 into/out of LAX anymore. Just like AA's new MIA-JFK 777 flight, which starts this week, is a positioning flight as well.


Next year's acft routing is far from finalized, but my guess is LAX will see a 777 overnight for maintenance and as the "schedule protection" (i.e. backup) acft for the (slightly) increased west-coast 777 operation: 2/day LAX-LHR, 1/day LAX-NRT and SJC-NRT flights.
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mark777300
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:20 am

Further to clarify what was said above, the money is in Miami? Aaahh, I don't think so. I myself was a former resident of Miami, and I had to fight tooth and nail just to get by. The conditions in Miami are hiddeous at best. A good chunk of the population can and does legally fall under the category of poverty. Sure you have your rich folks living in places like Coco Plum and Coral Gables, but that is such a small few who can afford that life style. I moved back up to NY only to make triple of what I use to make in Miami. On average, I make at least 90-95,000 yearly (average), and my wife does the same. Down in South Florida, at best maybe we squeezed out 35,000. NY more expensive to live in???, marginally. These days, Miami is severly over priced. You guys are paying exactly the same price at the pump, supermarkets are even more expensive, especially Publix, prices of houses are now STARTING at 250,000, and jobs continue to pay chump change to it's people. The only thing that saves you are the taxes, but even then, the insurance rates on property alone have sky rocketed over the past year.

My parents have lived there for more than 14 years and have always struggled to make a living. My in-laws are all in the same boat as well, living pay check to pay check. My wife who was born and raised there doesn't even want to think of going back to live there, and most of here friends have all moved away, many out of state, a few of them moved further north in Florida. The excess building that is occuring in Dade County alone is mostly contributed by outside investors, particularly South Americans who have much money in their own countries who are investing their money outside their countries, wether it be related to political or economical problems, such as what is occuring in Venezuela. These are the people who are purchasing these new homes. Other folks are being forced to look at either moving down to Florida city or Homestead where homes can still be found in the 150's or move up-state. A typical resident in Miami making the average pay would never be able to afford the prices associated with purchasing a new home, insurance, food, Gas, etc.... I also agree as what was said above, many northerners with money are purchasing property in areas further north, Jupiter, Palm Beach, Boca Raton and up. In my eyes, Broward county alone looks healthier than does Dade county, especially Pembroke Pines. Don't make the mistake in assuming that because there is much construction occuring in Dade County that the local economy is healthy or that residents are doing just fine. A many of the orginal group of Cubans who arrived back in the 1960's have long departed Miami and have moved either up-state or out of FLA all together. There is a rather large Cuban-American population in NJ, in places such as Fairfield and Wayne, all making salary figures in excess of 80,000 yearly and living quite comfortably, something that was not attainable in MIA. Hey I lived there, I visit there all the time, and it's only getting worse by the minute. AA has been a success in MIA because quite frankly, MIA is a superb gateway to Latin America, especially when you take into consideration that Miami-Dade County has a huge latin population, if not even in the 80% region of the population. Import/ Export is big business in Miami, and any airline would be foolish to by pass MIA. But sorry folks, it's a nice place to vacation in, but to live there, never in a million years would I find my rear end living down there again! Another interesting thing to note, IF for whatever reason AA should follow in the foot steps of EA or PA, a lot of people in Miami alone will be jobless. Remember, AA is probably the largest employer in Miami alone, and MIA alone contributes a huge % of jobs directly and indirectly to Dade County residents. I may be off, but I could have sworn that I had read somewhere that it was in the range of 50% or more, thats how important MIA and AA is to Miami's economy!!
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:38 am

anyway, according to economic indicators produced from business development boards of all three counties (they all have information for only the 1st qtr of 2004), palm beach county issued the most residential building permits, worth the most money. i couldn't locate the number of permits miami-dade issued but total 2003 value (in millions) was $2,855.4. this was commercial and residential combined! broward county residential permits issued in 2003 were at their lowest levels in twelve years with a total of 8,217 issued (no values published). In their own words: "The decline of permit activity in Broward County reflects the shrinking availability of land for new development." palm beach county issued 14,730 permits worth $2,397,040,697. again, that doesn't include commercial development and palm beach county is on track to beat the numbers again.

The only thing you are showing is that Palm Beach County has more vertical development. Nothing more. The development in Miami-Dade and Broward is primarily

by the way MAH west palm beach has 8 condos in development that are high rises, including two 37 story twin towers. .

I never denied Palm Beach's growth. It is growing. I never said otherwise. I did say Miami has more highrise construction. That's a fact. You'll see it driving through downtown tonight. There are three 50+ story condos under construction across the street from the area - Ten Museum, 900 Biscayne (which will be America's fourth tallest condominum building), and Marina Blue. A fourth, 700 Biscayne, breaks ground in March.

are you blind or do you wear sunglasses as you're driving through downtown miami near the arena passing hundreds and hundreds of homeless people and vacant buildings?

Are you blind or do you not notice the construction cranes in the area? That are went through some very hard times in the 1990s, but go there on a Saturday night, were many of the warehouses have been turned into clubs and lounges, and tell me it's depressing. Those aren't vacant buildings you see.

Here on the west coast of FL everyone wants to go to Port St. Lucie, Jupiter, West Palm Beach. Miami is a "stay away at all costs place" unless you want to drive real fast through to south beach.

That's why those people live there and not Miami. Not everyone shares that view. More many people who live in Miami, the view of Palm Beach and other areas of Florida is as the boring suburbs, lacking diverisity and with nowhere to go but shopping malls.

Different tastes for different people. Some people perfer the suburbs, and go to northern Broward/Palm Beach/St. Lucie, some people perfer city living, and go to southern Broward/Miami-Dade.
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flymia
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:16 am

1 out of every 6 people jobs has something to do with MIA or maybe just aviation in general in Miami Dade county. And yes AA is Miami largest private employer.
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kkfla737
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:13 pm

While much of Broward is at build out, Southwest Broward continues to see remarkable growth. I know from dealing with Coral Springs city affairs that the population is expected to remain stagnant (about 130,000) in Coral Springs unless areas are annexed into the city over the next 5-10 years. Palm Beach County's growth now is in the Northern area- north of 45th Street, and south of Jupiter. The area along Northlake going west past SR-710 and towards the Acerage will also recieve further growth, but short of developing the Ag Reserve, South County is pretty much at buildout like Broward as well. So Palm Beach's grwoth opportunities believe it or not will begin to be limited in a few years.
 
jeffie813
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:54 pm

The only thing you are showing is that Palm Beach County has more vertical development. Nothing more. The development in Miami-Dade and Broward is primarily

actually, what i'm arguing against is what you said in your previous post, namely, "The majority of new development is in Miami-Dade County, not Palm Beach."

clarify what you are trying to say...is the majority of new development in Miami-Dade? no - it's not. it is in palm beach, whether you call it "vertical" development or not.

I never denied Palm Beach's growth. It is growing. I never said otherwise. I did say Miami has more highrise construction. That's a fact.

you are 100% correct.

Are you blind or do you not notice the construction cranes in the area? That are went through some very hard times in the 1990s, but go there on a Saturday night, were many of the warehouses have been turned into clubs and lounges, and tell me it's depressing. Those aren't vacant buildings you see.

yes i've been to space and other clubs in that area....but let's be honest, are you going to walk around the corner in the middle of the night? it's a blighted area whether there are cranes or not....MIASkies saying palm beach is a "dump" is the ignorance that annoys the crap out of me.
 
DB777
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:21 pm

I don't know who has more growth in the area and it's kind of immaterial to me except that all the growth in Broward, Palm Beach and Martin counties puts a lot more people closer to PBI and FLL than to MIA and it moves the geographic center of population even further north. This fact alone directly impacts future airport traffic figures.

I do know for a fact that far more people move out of Miami-Dade to the north than move into Miami-Dade from the north. The vast majority of Miami-Dade's population growth is coming from other countries south of here. Over one million residents have moved out of Miami-Dade over the past 3.5 decades and I presume they were seeking a better quality of life. In a way it's a good thing they moved because this county would be even more overwhelmed with condos and traffic than it already is. No one is solving the horrendous vehicle traffic problems and companies will continue to move out of Miami-Dade to the north so their employees can get to work on time. MIA will continue to suffer from vehicle traffic gridlock on county expressways and arterial roadways, while all they talk about is rail this, rail that, and the rail lines are just about worthless for getting to the airport with baggage.

We're doomed folks, admit it.

Don
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:41 pm

This was an interesting thread, until you all started talking about housing and demographics.
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kkfla737
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:58 pm

Even though the demographics and trends of South florida is part of how I make my living, let's get back on topic.

Are there any particular mistakes PA/EA/NA/DL, etc made out of Miami to lead to this point? Could things have ended up differently with one or two moves. (I'm not asking about the obvious labor/managment problems at EA).

Also, somewhat related, how did DL allow the FLL market, one which after EAs collapse was dominated by them become this sort of battleground where they are barely hanging on? (DL though has smartly recognized that they need to keep their market share at FLL and seem to be doing whatever they can to add new flights so passengers can avoid connecting in ATL. Either the flights are nonstops from FLL or they can connect at MCO which most travelers prefer to ATL)

 
DB777
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:03 pm

Sorry but population shifts have a direct impact on area airports and traffic patterns and discussing it is related to the topic.

Housing and demographics have a definite impact on AA's hub at MIA (which is the topic) which would be an absolute diamond mine if everyone in South Florida lived in Miami-Dade and we didn't have FLL and PBI to draw O&D traffic away from it.

Don
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WesternA318
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:15 pm

"United flew the route for a month or two on behalf of Pan Am"

That's when you know the sh*t has hit the fan, when a largely domestic airline (at that point) is flying your BREAD-AND-BUTTER LHR services.
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kkfla737
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:02 pm

"United flew the route for a month or two on behalf of Pan Am"

That's when you know the sh*t has hit the fan, when a largely domestic airline (at that point) is flying your BREAD-AND-BUTTER LHR services.


-well said. The rot had set in @ Pan Am by that time, and having United and Delta to non-players in Europe (Especially United) buy the bread and butter routes Pan Am was known for must have been so demoralizing. I think the issue with UA's MIA-LHR flight was that Pan Am did not have aircraft to begin its own Gatwcik flights. Something of the sort. Eventually Pan Am resumed the route and it was sold to Delta.
 
flymia
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:07 am

Jeffie813: Crime in the Downtown area is not bad. Soon there will be many more people around and more commercial areas likes stores and other things once all the new develoments start opening. But really I would walk around in Downtown the homeless dont mean any harm.
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MAH4546
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:33 am

but let's be honest, are you going to walk around the corner in the middle of the night?

Yes, I will. It is a perfectly safe area, and I live around there. Just because there is a large homeless population does not equal unsafe. Downtown Miami hasn't had a major crime since 1999, including zero murders, a fact they boast often.

it's a blighted area whether there are cranes or not....MIASkies saying palm beach is a "dump" is the ignorance that annoys the crap out of me.

Palm Beach isn't a dump, very true. Though I'm sure he and others, including myself, get annoyed by your "Miami is a dump" comments just the same.
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miaskies
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:53 am

I will stick to the my statement, Palm Beach is a dump! I have plenty of friends living in Boca and points northward that will agree with me. Outside of the common areas, you have some very "troubled" neighborhoods...and that's all I have to say about that.

Miami might be a dump...but then again we must have Millions of Tourists who just might be dumb and like vacationing and dumping money in dumps!

Anyway back to the topic at hand (which we all have seem to venture out of), I am glad to see AA at MIA and hope they continue to grow here. MIA has had a very interesting history...hopefully a better one to come.

Happy Holidays Everyone
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kkfla737
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:04 am

I live in Palm Beach County these days and are constantly annoyed by people who say that Dade and Broward are both dumps. West Palm itself has areas that are more rundown and dumpy than any part of Fort Lauderdale. Also the crime rate in West Palm Beach is higher than that of Miami's I'm pretty sure. Palm Beach County on the whole certainly has its share of nice areas, but I really think all three counties have good areas, bad areas, and flat out less than safe areas.
 
flymia
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:49 am

Great topic and like your comments Kkfla737.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
kkfla737
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RE: AA's MIA Dominance- A 25 Year Story

Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:46 pm

flymia, thanks! On a related note, what are the loads like on the AA MIA-MAN run?

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