ACB777
Topic Author
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:16 am

Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:35 pm

In about 10 years, AC will need to replace the older 767 planes as well as some older A32X planes. Could Boeing give a discount to AC for a large amount of 7E7s? To replace the A32X family (much later) AC could buy the 737NG replacement. AC could then have a fleet of RJs, the 737NG replacement, and all variants 7E7. This would be a simple and easy to maintain fleet. The 737NG replacement and the 7E7 would probably have a lot of commonality. A large amount of 7E7s would also allow AC to increase frequency to popular international destinations that are currently served by one daily A340. It would also allow AC to open new international destinations that do not need the capacity of the A343/A345. Range would not be an issue since the 7E7 will have a lot of range. Some routes that the 7E7 would be useful are

YVR-NRT 2x daily with the 7E7-800 instead of 1x A343
YYZ-BOM 1x daily
YYZ-Beirut 1x daily
YYZ-DXB 1x daily
YVR-Vietnam
YVR-ICN 2x daily with the 7E7 - 800 instead of 1x daily A343
YVR/YYC/YYZ/YUL-LHR
YVR-CDG 1x daily 7E8

The short range verision of the 7E7 would be useful for high capacity domestic/transborder routes such as:

YVR/YYC-YYZ/YUL
YYZ/YUL-MIA/FLL

The 737NG replacement aircraft can be used on lower capacity domestic flights as well as transborder flights.

I feel that the A350 is too big of an aircraft to replace the 762 and 763 aircraft. AC could easily trade in the A333/A343 with Boeing in exchange for the 7E7 since there are only less than 20 in total.


Any thoughts on this?

 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:52 pm

I could see the 7E7 being added, but why add the 737NG? Even as a replacement of the older A320s, why add a new fleet when there's already an existing fleet of aircraft with, arguably, the same relative level of technology. If anything, the older A32Xs would be replaced with newer A32Xs or, theoretically, a newer version of the 737 or A320.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:07 pm

AC could then have a fleet of RJs, the 737NG replacement, and all variants 7E7. This would be a simple and easy to maintain fleet

Yes but would the A330/A340/A350 not be even simpler?

There is a good argument for both the A350 and 7e7 to be chosen for AC.

A350

Commonality (not sure how much yet).
Minimal integration costs.
Can eventually replace larger A343's and A333's too.
Loyal customer - Probably get 'em cheap.

7e7

True 763 replacement.
Potentially more advanced.
Short-haul variant avaliable.
Nice to keep a mixed A B fleet.

but its way too early to comment.

And as for the 737NNG suggestion, how can you even speculate that. Some people have really been dreaming away lately.
 
ACB777
Topic Author
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:16 am

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:21 pm

By 737NG replacement I mean the plane that will eventually be built (not for a really long time though) to replace the 737NG. By then AC's A32X family will need replacement.
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:54 am

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:36 pm

YVR-NRT 2x daily with the 7E7-800 instead of 1x A343
YVR-Vietnam
YVR-ICN 2x daily with the 7E7 - 800 instead of 1x daily A343
YVR-CDG 1x daily 7E8

Where did you get this data? Because many of the routes such as ICN are triple trackers with SQ and KE in it. YVR-CDG, can't operate due to bilaterial agreements, only two destinations from Canada to Paris which currently are YUL, YYZ. YVR-ICN, YVR-NRT, yes but there is no need for that in the off season. For a couple months per year, YVR-NRT is flown by B767-300ER and taking into account that NRT's landing fees are extremely high, why not get the ops done with 1 ac. I can see AC trying to use them on the summer KIX routes, AC35/36 and AC39/40 but again, they did this last year and I didn't get the purpose for it.

Since up-grading all the ac and getting them equipped with IFE's seems to be AC's main focus for all the domestic/international fleet and we never know what is going to happen to AC until the 2005 financial reports, I don't think we can really 'hope' that AC would get the 7E7.

Personally, I think AC would be interested in the 7E7 once its in the air.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:39 pm

I have a feeling Air Canada is aiming for an all-Airbus fleet. But like many airlines do, they will play one off on the other - to get the best price from the maker that they want. For Air Canada, I think that is Airbus.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2563
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:31 pm

Slot restricted airports such as NRT, LHR, & FRA will require larger aircraft than 7E7 on most routes if the status quo continues.
 
karan69
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Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:57 pm

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:55 pm

YYZ-BOM 1x daily

Altough it will be a good route for AC -they are better off operating it with a 4 engine jet as a twin engine jet the size of the 7e7 would have payload restrictions
 
cragley
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:09 pm

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:06 pm


Ok guys, where do the EMB's fit into this picture?

 
accargo
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:19 pm

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:29 pm

Ok guys, where do the EMB's fit into this picture?

As I understand it, the EMB's will be used to add greater frequencies on some domestic and T/B routes and to start new domestic and T/B routes where AC's larger acft (319/320/321) are not economically viable due to lower pax demand. The focus seems to be on having the "right size" acft on as many routes as possible and utilizing the fleet to maximize yield. The are a number of routes where the narrowbody airbus fleet (120seat +) is too big and the CRJ-100/200 (50seat) is too small (and doesn't offer business class). The 75 seat and 90 seat EMB products will fill this gap nicely while also having the benefit of lower operating cost.
 
777ER
Crew
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Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:10 pm

AC are interested in the B7E7 if i remember correctly. The B7E7 is the only Boeing aircraft that would be the B767 replacement. Apart from that it looks like Airbus.
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1577
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:37 pm

I seriously doubt if AC will be around in 10 years.

Ruscoe
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1577
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:52 pm


From Globeandmail
By BRENT JANG
Thursday, December 09, 2004
The parent company of Air Canada has yet to find a banking syndicate to give it a new line of credit, Dominion Bond Rating Service said Friday in assigning a speculative, or junk, single-B rating to the airline's debt

Ruscoe
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 4952
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:14 am

to quote Karan69..
re YYZ-BOM; Although it will be a good route for AC -they are better off operating it with a 4 engine jet as a twin engine jet the size of the 7e7 would have payload restrictions.

Not so, the full pay load range for the 7E8 and 7E9 is about identical to the 340-500.
 
katanapilot
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:25 pm

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:47 pm

what's up with the original post? that's a completely nonsensical boeing lover's fantasy.

it's pretty obvious that AC is moving in the Airbus direction for fleet commonality, so why would they replace a32x with 737? why would they replace the 767's with 7e7 over a350 when the a350 shares a cockpit and type rating with AC's a330's? Airbus typically undercuts Boeing as well, so AC might be able to stay afloat a little better if they keep buying AB.

7e7's would LOOK nice in AC's new livery. I doubt very much if it will happen though.
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:15 pm

There are arguments for and against the E7 and it all depends on what the overall long term plans for fleet growth are at ACA, and no one knows that for sure...Remember also that the first 340's in the fleet are nearing their 10th birthday, and in another 10 years they will be pushing 20. Looking at the E7 has to be done in a wider range, not just as a 767 replacement, but as part of a larger reorganization of the long/medium haul fleet. It's just my opinion but there are two ways that ACA could go with their long term planning.

Right now or soon they will have a mainline fleet of ERJ's A319, 320, 321, 762, 763, 333, 343, 345.

This could be streamlines and improved in a number of ways.

The ERJ fleet, being cheaper to operate then the a32X fleet could grow, removing the 319 from the fleet, and reducing the 320 workload, the 321 is effectively a dud in the fleet, a 762 does about the same job with a lot more range and much less payload restrictions (Just ask anyone working for ACA Ops in Florida) the 763's, which in another few years will need replacing, can either be filled in with 333/332 operations or 7E7 family, the 333/343 fleet can grow if required and same goes for the 345. So what am I getting at??

Well Option 1 for long term fleet revitalization could be:

ERJ 170/190, A320, 321, 350, 333, 343, 345

Or option 2

ERJ 170/190, 320, 7E7Family, 777 Family.

You would be able to fill the role of the 321-333 fleet with the range of 7E7 Variations, and the 343/345 fleet could be reduced to one type ( the 777 family) You would be going from 6 types (current) to 4 types.

As I said we are all here speculating, only time will tell but I would not rule out the e7 or even the 777 based on some of the stuff that I've been hearing from friends at ACA, and while it may seem far fetched if they can secure better leases for these airplanes vs the competition, and the can operate them for less doing the same work then it's always a factor for consideration...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
airbusfanyyz
Posts: 1410
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:01 am

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:54 pm

I agree that the narrow body fleet could be consolidated into ERJ 170/190 and 320s.
The widebody fleet is a much different issue however as AC needs aircraft to focus on, and expand their three main markets of Europe, Asia, and South America.
It would be better for AC purposes to think of the 7e7-8 for those secondary Asian cities and South American expansion.

Option 3:

ERJ 170/190, 320, 7e8, 333, 345

Cheers,
Kaz
My $0.02
 
ac7e7
Posts: 655
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:19 pm

Yeah, I don't know. It would be nice to see 7E7 in AC colours, but I wonder. If sales continue to be slow, they could probably get a real good deal.

The 763 is not going to need replacing for another 10 years. Sure maybe some of the older planes, but not the fleet type. We won't be seeing an AC order for its replacement for another 5 years, IMHO.

From Globeandmail
By BRENT JANG
Thursday, December 09, 2004
The parent company of Air Canada has yet to find a banking syndicate to give it a new line of credit, Dominion Bond Rating Service said Friday in assigning a speculative, or junk, single-B rating to the airline's debt


This is a short term problem buddy. They already have lines of credit, they just want to refinance them at a better interest rate. If you are basing your opinion of AC's future on this information, you have problems. Go read a book.
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Air Canada Fleet Renewal

Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:17 pm

Not to forget that they still have some 346 on order. This order was deferred till 2010, but not canceled or transformed under bankruptcy protection. There are some Asian and European routes where they could use the 346.