FriendlySkies
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O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:45 pm

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-ohare13.html

O'Hare Airport is poised to handle nearly a million flights this year, hitting a new national milestone and retaining its "world's busiest" title, the Chicago Sun-Times has learned.

But bragging rights won't mean much to travelers, as O'Hare also is set to end 2004 as the nation's most delay-plagued airport, tardy on nearly 30 percent of its flights.

...

In January, O'Hare's dominant airlines, American and United, agreed to reduce peak-hour flights by 5 percent during the summer travel season. When those cuts didn't work, the airlines agreed to reduce flights by another 2.5 percent. And in November, the airlines voluntarily capped commercial domestic flights at 88 an hour between noon and 9 p.m.

"O'Hare's growth raises the question, 'How effective are those caps?'" said Aaron Gellman, director of Northwestern University's transportation center. The federal government "put the cap on, not knowing what the root cause of the delay problems. So the growth really isn't surprising."

...

"This is why O'Hare modernization is so important. We have to have the capacity so we can handle demand," city Aviation Commissioner John Roberson said. "We certainly have not done well with delay and congestion this year. Good weather, the flight restriction policy and some procedural changes have contributed to better performance in the last three months. But those are just short-term things to help."

Daley's multibillion-dollar plan calls for building six parallel east-west strips and two northeast-southwest ones, and adding western access to the airport.

Without expansion, 2004 will be the last year of economic growth at O'Hare, city officials said.

"This is it. Growth will be capped, and we will not be able to outperform this year at all. There will be no future growth," said Rosemarie Andolino, who oversees the expansion project.

If the FAA were to shoot down the expansion plan, Andolino predicts O'Hare would be forced to operate under strict flight caps and no longer be able to keep up with airport demand.

"This airport will become anti-competitive and anti-consumer," she said. "We will have delays and restricted markets. There will not be new entrant [airlines], and we won't have competition among carriers."


Basically, it sounds like ORD is at it's limits. The only option left is expansion, or face falling behind other airports in terms of modernization. Hopefully this will put pressure on the FAA to speed up the process of approving the plan, but knowing the FAA, it will probably cause them to slow down.

 
Superfly
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:49 pm

I guess that's good news for O'Hare and that gives them bragging rights.
I still think expanding GYY is the best option.
Bring back the Concorde
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:22 pm

I guess that's good news for O'Hare and that gives them bragging rights.

...so long as ATL continues to process more pax (which with DL's latest planned upgauge, will indeed perpetuate)-- any bragging rights will be split.
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spacecadet
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:44 pm

Daley's multibillion-dollar plan calls for building six parallel east-west strips and two northeast-southwest ones, and adding western access to the airport.

Uh, am I reading this right? Is he asking for eight new runways?

Am I the only one that doesn't think this is absolute insanity?

There are good arguments at the end of this article (conveniently not quoted by Friendly Skies) against this expansion plan. It seems to me to be a collossal waste of public money. At some point, you cap growth and move on. I mean this is true everywhere - no airport has unlimited expansion. You cap growth either artificially through slots or you do it naturally by alleviating pressure through access to other airports - either existing ones or new ones that you build elsewhere.

Spending billions of dollars on eight new runways at ORD, plus all this other stuff they want... I mean jeeze, I'm glad I'm not a Chicago taxpayer, though I'm sure federal funds would be involved in this too.

I'm not anti-growth, just in favor of realistic growth and an efficient use of public money (which is our money after all - I don't like to see it wasted).
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JoFMO
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:51 pm

@Spacecadet:

They surely don't want to build 8 additional runways. 8 is the number at the end of the transformation process. Most current runways will somehow be extended, scrapped or removed.
Have a look at there pdf files about ORD expansion. There you can easily see in which priority they will change the runway layout.
 
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N328KF
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:56 pm

Spacecadet:

No, there will be eight total, up from six. However, some of the existing ones will be decomissioned, so new ones will have to be reconstructed. It's too bad, I was fond of those diagonal runways.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
ordflyer
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:05 pm

JoFMO was right...the end plan isn't for 8 new runways, just 8 total runways in a more efficient parallel configuration. This is only one more runway than ORD currently has.
Overall I don't think this plan is insane at all. While growth at ORD can't continue forever, this new runway configuration would greatly increase efficiency for the near future. Any future third airport won't be seen for many years at best...there's just too much politics involved. Likewise, I agree with Superfly's comments about expanding GYY. That airport has the the benefit of being much closer to downtown Chicago than a location in Peotone would be, not to mention it would take less time to develop since the airport is already in place. Again though I'm afraid politics won't let GYY expand as much as it could be...I'm sure Daley will do everything possible to keep airport revenues in Illinois.
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:02 am

I used to fly out of ORD at least twice a week on UA. Those multiple intersecting runways are a bane to efficient operations due to runway incursions. I remember many times being delayed or having to do a go-around because of this.
Having the runways in a parallel configuration makes sense, some prime examples ATL, LHR, LAX, CDG.

Cheers,
Kaz
 
ATLhomeCMH
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:20 am

I guess that's good news for O'Hare and that gives them bragging rights.

Uhh, slow down, cowboy. Not exactly.

...so long as ATL continues to process more pax (which with DL's latest planned upgauge, will indeed perpetuate)-- any bragging rights will be split.

As ConcordeBoy said, ORD's sole bragging rights are very questionable, considering that ATL actually handles more travelers.

So, the question is: What really makes it the busiest? More takeoffs/landings, or more passengers? My vote is the latter.

Reply #16: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1861731/

[Edited 2004-12-14 17:33:40]
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JoFMO
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:34 am

Atlanta has the most passengers and Chicago more movements.
 
gustyorange
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:38 am

And LHR has more international passengers  Big grin

Gusty
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:28 am


So, the question is: What really makes it the busiest? More takeoffs/landings, or more passengers? My vote is the latter.


I would disagree. It would seem that this title has always referred to plane traffic.
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ZID
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:12 am

ATLhomeCMH's question - What really makes it the busiest? More takeoffs/landings, or more passengers? - is easily answered.

It depends on whether you prefer to hang out in the terminal watching people, or whether you hang out at the end of the runway watching planes. Other than that it doesn't make a bit of difference, except to some of us in a profession dependent upon one or the other.

For me "busiest" means number of planes, since a Cessna 172 blip is the same size as a Boeing 747 blip, and a Comair Canadair Regional Jet takes up just as much space (five miles in front and five miles behind) inbound to Cincinnati as does a Delta 767.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:15 am

It would seem that this title has always referred to plane traffic.

Not really.

ORD didn't do much promoting of the "world's busiest" title when first they regained the #1 spot in movements.... partially because ATL handled more pax; but also because though ATL had fewer movements, more of its movements were commerical (scheduled pax/cargo) than ORD's was that year.
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Tarantine
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:30 am

How come ATL carries more people but with less aircraft? Are the planes bigger or just filled with more pax?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:49 am

ORD and ATL's commercial pax ops are more similar than the aggregate numbers reveal.... that, and DL's significant domestic widebody fleet helps give it an edge.
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texdravid
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:54 am

DFW's website continues the fallacy that it is the world's 3rd busiest airport.
Not only can't DFW officials attract foreign airlines, can't seem to stop kissing AA's axx, but can't seem to add/subtract either.

I go through DFW all the time, and its terminals, lobbies, parking garages, and departure/arrival areas all scream underutilized!!
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Carpethead
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:11 am

So is it better to see, one RJ marching by after another with an odd MD-80 or Airbus. Or see 747s & 777s coming in. Take a pick.
 
Superfly
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:11 am

ConcordeBoy & ATLhomeCMH:
Do airplanes sitting up on bricks count?  Laugh out loud  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Just kidding.  Smile







Expand GYY now!
Bring back the Concorde
 
srbmod
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:23 am

Hey Chicago, just wait until 10L/28R opens up next year along with the new southern terminal around 2010, which will have around 30 gates. And we can't forget about the additional gates on E that will be build along with the new Int'l Terminal on the eastside of ATL either. ORD will be in second place on both lists by 2010. With the new terminal more than likely to be used by FL, ASA/Comair will probably put nearly all of their ops on C, freeing up additional gates on D in which to attract more airlines to serve ATL, and with the additional gates ATL will be able to attract more foreign airlines since there will be enough gate space available during the main afternoon/evening rush of international flights.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:31 am

DFW's website continues the fallacy that it is the world's 3rd busiest airport.

It indeed was the world's 3rd busiest, in movements, last year.... basically, along the same line of thinking as O'Hare's claim to the title.




Not only can't DFW officials attract foreign airlines

I'd say their relatively lack-luster international yield and international O&D, when compared to their southeastern competitor, are somewhat more to blame.....



can't seem to stop kissing AA's axx

...sorta like every other capital hub does to its primary tenant (with the glaring exception of ORD, for reasons DFW cannot match)
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AAtakeMeAway
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:22 am

.....DFW's website continues the fallacy that it is the world's 3rd busiest airport.
Not only can't DFW officials attract foreign airlines, can't seem to stop kissing AA's axx, but can't seem to add/subtract either.......

According to this, DFW's also #3 in domestic enplanements...: http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2004/bts034_04/html/bts034_04.html#table_04
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:31 am

Hey Chicago, just wait until 10L/28R opens up next year along with the new southern terminal around 2010, which will have around 30 gates. And we can't forget about the additional gates on E that will be build along with the new Int'l Terminal on the eastside of ATL either. ORD will be in second place on both lists by 2010. With the new terminal more than likely to be used by FL, ASA/Comair will probably put nearly all of their ops on C, freeing up additional gates on D in which to attract more airlines to serve ATL, and with the additional gates ATL will be able to attract more foreign airlines since there will be enough gate space available during the main afternoon/evening rush of international flights.

Well, if the ORD plan goes through, ATL will fall quite a bit behind ORD in both categories. The master plan calls for 2 completely new terminals (6 and 7), an extention of T3 (to be called T4), as well as the possiblity of reconstructing T2 to better handle the UAX ops. Not to turn this into anything, I like that its split...nothin' wrong with a little healthy competition!  Big grin
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:32 am

Expansion projects aside... are there any solidified plans thusfar to add INS facilities to any existing terminals?
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N328KF
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:17 am

FYI. There is no longer any INS. It was merged with Customs and is now U.S. Customs and Immigration Service.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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legacyins
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:36 am

Actually, it is called. Customs and Border Protection
 
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N328KF
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:38 am

Then I must be imagining http://uscis.gov/graphics/index.htm.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
jacobin777
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:58 am

yah..its bad sometimes, but its not bad all the time...

for example, I just arrived a couple of hours ago from an ORD-SFO flight (AA), the movement was very quick, in fact, we taxied up to the runway and took off......

it does get bad every now and then, especially when the weather is bad, but to be honest, I've flown out of ORD literally hundreds of times and it hasn't been that bad....now PHL, THAT's a bbbbbbaaaaaaadddd airport..  Sad

and I would agree with the post above, I would rather see more beautiful planes land than people.

Actually, our plane flew over Rockford Airport, while its not that big, it doesn't seem that bad and the infastructure is there already......

i think (JMHO) people would be a little more reticent to go to Gary since Gary.
1)is in Indiana, and though it might not be as far as Rockford from Downtown Chicago, people will think it is 2) Gary has a bad reputation as a "dirty" and "crime riddled" city, where as Rockford isn't.
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wdleiser
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:59 am

If you ask me, more flights a year makes it busier. Just like a highway, if it carries more cars with 1 person in each car than any other highway it would be busier to me than say the HOV lane carrying more passengers but using busses, using less vehicles. Which is more travelled on? The highway or the HOV lane?

O'hare is more travelled on with planes, to me that makes it busier.
 
Superfly
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:04 pm

Jacobin777:
Gary has a bad reputation as a "dirty" and "crime riddled" city


That dosn't hurt flights to Oakland, CA and Newark, New Jersy and they are dirty crime riddled cities too.
Bring back the Concorde
 
BIGBlack
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:01 pm

So which is it for good cause I am confused. Atlanta or O Hare?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:10 pm

So which is it for good cause I am confused. Atlanta or O Hare?

It's not that difficult really...

ATL is #1 for passenger throughput
ORD is #1 for aircraft runway movements
MEM is #1 for cargo tonnage
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BIGBlack
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:15 pm

Well with 2 posts within 5 of each other full of dispute, that makes it tough.

Thanks though.

MEM I completely understand.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:19 pm

Well with 2 posts within 5 of each other full of dispute, that makes it tough.

...well, let's unmake it tough:

http://www.airports.org/cda/aci/display/main/aci_content.jsp?zn=aci&cp=1-5-54-55_9_25__

ACI: the official source on the matter.
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N1120A
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:33 pm

>I'd say their relatively lack-luster international yield and international O&D, when compared to their southeastern competitor, are somewhat more to blame.....<

And there happens to be one about due west on the coast that clobbers both of them

>ATL is #1 for passenger throughput
ORD is #1 for aircraft runway movements
MEM is #1 for cargo tonnage<

I say we go with number 3 in pax, number 2 in cargo, top 5 in movements and number 1 in O&D. LAX

Yay, post 2000 1 year and 1 day after joining A.net
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:58 pm

Um, cher...

LAX is #5 in pax, #6 in cargo, and #4 in movements.



...but oh well, with all due respect to MeatLoaf: 1 outta three ain't bad, either  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
backfire
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:10 pm

Of course, when the USA gets around to having REAL international airports, it might just end up topping the all-round leader - London Heathrow. Big grin
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:15 pm

when the USA gets around to having REAL international airports,

...as opposed to ethereal ones?  Nuts



it might just end up topping the all-round leader - London Heathrow

Course, being in a country smaller than many of our largest states sorta helps LHR's international reach, dont'ya think?  Yeah sure
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Maersk737
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:34 pm

You could argue that the routes out Heathrow to airports in the EU, isn't real international flights?

Who has the biggest then  Laugh out loud

Cheers

Peter
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gustyorange
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:36 pm

They are real international flights Maersk737.

A passport is still required to enter our country.

When LHR T5 opens and we go to mixed mode then I guess LHR will be challenging ATL for the busiest airport title.

When LHR gets another runway and T6 there won't be any competition  Big grin

Gusty
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:39 pm

When LHR T5 opens and we go to mixed mode then I guess LHR will be challenging ATL for the busiest airport title.

ATL is in no danger whatsoever of being overtaken by LHR, now nor in any foreseeable future.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gustyorange
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:51 pm

Won't T5 have a capacity of 35M ?

Add this to 62M ? currently using LHR and we are nearly at 100M.

I'm well aware that T2 might close for refurbishment but it's tiny anyway.

ps Are you in the UK CB ?

If you are in the US you must be up very late or early!!!

Cheers

Gusty
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:15 pm

Add this to 62M ? currently using LHR and we are nearly at 100M.

...and you think ATL is just going to sit still and stagnate while that happens--?



Are you in the UK CB

Nope



If you are in the US you must be up very late or early

I rarely sleep more than 3hrs on any given weeknight... this is the norm  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gustyorange
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:22 pm

T5 is a LOT of capacity all at once, about 50% of where ATL is right now I guess ?

Are ATL adding this sort of capacity ?

If they are I hope we get a flight to sunny GLA Big grin

Cheers

Gusty
 
gkirk
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:36 pm

Comparing LHR to ATL is unfair. ATL is the only major airport serving ATL (happens top be DL's hub) whereas LHR competes with LGW,STN,LCY and LTN.

If you were comparing London to say Paris, Chicago, Los Angeles or Atlanta, you will find that London is the busiest city for flights.
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ILSApproach
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RE: O'Hare Remains World's Busiest Airport

Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:23 pm

One thing for sure when things are really moving at ORD it's quite a sight to be seen! Pretty cool on the scanner too!

My hat is off to the controllers at ORD, it's really something what these guys (and ladies) go through to make it happen and work with what they have!

To see the use of intersecting runways, with the amount of traffic is mind blowing. A steady stream of AA and UAL on 32L/R, international on 9R mixed in with UA, AA, American Eagle. More domestic on 4R................meanwhile over on 22. I've seen planes coming in from 5 different directions for 5 different runways.

I keep going back to watch the show!

Mike @ MSP