ly7e7
Posts: 2222
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LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:10 pm

This weekend 55 years of a state ownership of LY will finally come to an end.
The new owners are the Wing Inc. (also the owners of Arkia) - 52.8%, Delek Investments - 3-5%, Peling Cargo - 8%, Employees - 8%.

The main issues LY will have to deal with in the foreseeable future:

1) Flights on Saturdays. Due to a prehistoric government decision LY does not operate scheduled pax flights on Saturdays (Cargo flights are operated, and the pax flights are operated via Sun-Dor). LY will have to come to a business decision on this issue,considering the fact that they can loose a significant amount of orthodox travelers. Such decision will probably not be reached within a first year of private operations.

2) Fleet. LY's fleet is somewhat outdated with an average age of 11 years. Next 2 years will bring an urgent need to replace 4 B742 classics and 2 B767s.
Since LY is no longer influenced by the government decisions and its ties with the US, Airbus can just stand a chance.

3) Destinations. LY will be no longer obliged to operate unprofitable routes. I hope that we will see some interesting changes in this field. I personally hope that SYD will be one of the first new destinations.

4) A possible entry to one of the major alliances.

5) Service. The quality of service has skyrocketed in LY during the recent decade, yet its Business and First products still lack the luxury of other companies.

2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
N1120A
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:14 pm

> Fleet. LY's fleet is somewhat outdated with an average age of 11 years. Next 2 years will bring an urgent need to replace 4 B742 classics and 2 B767s.
Since LY is no longer influenced by the government decisions and its ties with the US, Airbus can just stand a chance.<

Yeah right. Have you seen Arkia's fleet?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:14 pm

Here's some more business info:

Founded in 1949
Employees: 5500(450 pilots, 1200 F/As)
Income 1-9/2004 : 4.7 billion NIS
Net profit 1-9/2004 : 266 million NIS
Market value: 1.45 billion NIS

($1 = 4.32 NIS , as of 15/12/2004)
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:16 pm

Does LY plan to continue their extraordinary security protocols? They are probably the most stringent world-wide.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:18 pm

N1120a,

Arkia cannot be compared to LY, it's much smaller (and by the way their turboprops are ATR) and Airbus never even tried to sell them a/c.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
ly7e7
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:19 pm

ANCFlyer,

As long as it's needed.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:35 pm

>Arkia cannot be compared to LY, it's much smaller<

Not that much, and they are still an airline. And guess what, the owners are the same now

>(and by the way their turboprops are ATR)<

Boeing does not make a turboprop, in fact no US manufacturer has made a major turboprop airliner since the 19 seat Metroliner, except for Beach with the Beach 1900, again only 19 seats


>...and Airbus never even tried to sell them a/c.<

Because they knew it was a lost cause
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:54 pm

N1120a,
I still disagree with you, but lets just hope that this time it will be about commerce and not about politics. I am also sure that Airbus officials will try to offer an attractive deal in order to penetrate to the Israeli market, as small as it might be.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
EurostarVA
Posts: 1205
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:28 pm

Just a quick update, does EL AL continue a ban on hiring Arab cabin crew? Whats the reason for this? I've read about this a few years back.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:44 pm

EurostarVA,

There is no such ban. However, for obvious reasons the security screening for the applicants is rigorous, thus, de facto, one can only find Arab employees as part of the ground stuff.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
LY4XELD
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:45 pm

LY will have to come to a business decision on this issue,considering the fact that they can loose a significant amount of orthodox travelers. Such decision will probably not be reached within a first year of private operations

What makes this a business decision? Why can't the orthodox Jews simply not fly on the Saturday flights if they begin? I'd imagine they use other businesses that operate on Friday night-Saturday nights but simply don't use them during that time. Wouldn't this apply to choosing their airline?
That's why we're here.
 
ly7e7
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:56 pm

LY4XELD,


The answer is that the ultra orthodox Jews will not fly LY if LY flies on Saturday. Why ? Stupid religious fundamentalism ("they are making other Jews work on Sat."). I hope LY can loose them as customers, they are only making the LY experience worse for other customers , by merely being on board.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
PRGLY
Posts: 387
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:06 pm

LY7E7, I just hope privatization will not be the reason for closing smaller LY stations like my station (check username). Generally we are profitable per contribution reports, but who knows, Izzy is very tough.
just fly - it is nice
 
ly7e7
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:10 pm

Since PRG is a major tourist and business destination for Israelis this route is certainly profitable, so I doubt it will be eliminated.

(But who knows, I'm not a LY employee)
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
PRGLY
Posts: 387
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:17 pm

LY7e7 - thanks, but
There is a big competition on the route OK flying daily and a lot of charters, surprisingly Travel Servis is holding biggest market share on the route. We hardly compete with 2 freq per week in W04/05.
just fly - it is nice
 
avi
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RE: LY Goes Private

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:59 pm

N1120a: >...and Airbus never even tried to sell them a/c.< (LY7E7)

Because they knew it was a lost cause

If Airbus believed it was a lost cause to sell its aircrafts to Arkia, why did they try to sell them to El-Al? This one was really a lost cause until now but still they tried every time (just to be humiliated again and again).

Long live the B747
 
legendDC9
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:42 am

They whole orthodox thing is a joke anyways. If LY starts flying on saturdays do you realy expect them to stop their pilgrimige back and forth to Brooklyn? Who else would they fly? El-Al has gone through a major transformation in service in the last few years, but it is time now to completely step out of the dark ages and start operating and making money 7 days a week.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:01 am

LegendDC9-I hear what you are saying, but try convincing your employees, who most likely are orthodox Jews, to work on Saturday. Are you going to have the inflatable autopilot fly the planes? Are you going to put vending machines in the aircraft to do the safety demonstrations? Are you going to have the metal detectors do the work themselves, and have themselves stop passengers if they have something they shouldn't? Are you going to have machines do the Air Traffic Controlling in Israeli airspace? I hear what you are saying, but for orthodox Jewish people, the Sabbath is as sacred to them as Touchdown Jesus is to a Notre Dame football fan, Fenway Park is to a Boston Red Sox fan, and Old Trafford is to a Manchester United fan.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
ly7e7
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:20 am

SHUPirate1,

Do you really think that LY employs ultra orthodox workers??? And the small percentage of plain religious people will simply get their day off on Saturday as earlier. Never in my life I saw an orthodox in TLV or any other LY ground post. Think of what you're saying. (Do Amish people work in UA?)
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
PRGLY
Posts: 387
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:28 am

LY7E7, u r right, there is very very limited number of real orthodox employees in LY, I m working for the airline 15 years already and I met few mostly in uniform store or similar departments, hence nothing will happen if they will not work on Saturday. But the story is that orthodox community is very influential and their boycot could cause a lot of damage to us.
just fly - it is nice
 
legendDC9
Posts: 458
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:28 am

SHUPirate1, LY7e7 beat me to it, but I guess that is the perception out there. TLV does not close on Saturdays, all other carriers operate, including Arkia. LY was banned from doing so since it was government controlled and orthodox jews who have always been in the balance of power in the government, made it happen. Let's not forget the CO flys many orthodox jews to NYC and so did TW in it's day but you never hear complaints about them. The religious folks simply avoid flying on Saturdays and that's it. Welcome to the 20th century.
 
ly7e7
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:32 am

LegendDC9,

It's 21st , just in case you missed Big grin

2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:33 am

LY, Legend-I stand corrected, I guess I thought the religiousness in Israel was more deep-seated than it actually is. BTW, I'm not in the 20th century, I'm in the 21st.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
legendDC9
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:34 am

We are in the 21st, religious control is still in the middle ages.
 
legendDC9
Posts: 458
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:36 am

it was just an attempt at sarcasm which obviously did not translate well...
 
yanksn4
Posts: 1367
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:40 am

I read in the article that El Al flies cargo operations on Saturdays, does anyone know if these flights are operated by Christians? Does El Al even have Christian employees? This is not intended to offend anyone or something.

signed,
Matthew
2013 Airports: EWR, JFK, LGA, LIS, AGP, DEN, GIG, RGN, BKK, LHR, FRA, LAX, SYD, PER, MEL, MCO, MIA, PEK, IAH
 
Trvlr
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:56 am

Yanksn4: The cargo flights are regularly operated El Al employees, be they Jews, Christians, agnostics, whatever. The state ban affected only passenger flights, and moreover wasn't a prohibition on working for El Al, but rather El Al's passenger operations on Saturdays.

And as several people have said, El Al does not have a Jews-only policy. I'm sure you'll find many Christians and Muslims working for the airliner.

Aaron G.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:08 am

>but lets just hope that this time it will be about commerce and not about politics<

Yeah, well, commerce tends to favor Boeing too, especially since El Al/Arkia already fly a Boeing fleet. Oh, and aside from stolen French designs built by IAI, the Israeli military is also US equipped, a great deal from Boeing. Everything involved with Israel is a political issue, and it will remain so
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
airbusfanyyz
Posts: 1410
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:20 am

While a tie up with an alliance would help LY. I highly doubt the traffic they bring will be sufficient to peak the interest of any of the alliances. In other words what would LY 's contribution be to Star, Skyteam or Oneworld??


Cheers,
Kaz
 
amirs
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:58 pm

"There is no such ban. However, for obvious reasons the security screening for the applicants is rigorous, thus, de facto, one can only find Arab employees as part of the ground stuff. "???????

When I worked as a F/A in El Al, there were about 4 Israeli Arab F/A.

Ly7e7 - i am not sure where you are getting your info from.

 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
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RE: LY Goes Private

Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:40 pm

Amirs - from an ex F/A. The things could have changed though (or at least I hope so)

N1120a - Although this thread has nothing to do with the IAI, the so called "stolen" designs - i.e. the Kfir - is no longer built and is only stored FEU.
I use apostrophes, since the Kfir was developed in the era of a close military co-operation between France and Israel, not to mention the avionics that are completely self-designed and the GE powerplant. Nothing was stolen (which does not contradict the fact that the Kfir is an improved version of Mirage IIIc).
Another thing is that its mostly Lockheed-Martin, not Boeing.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
LY744
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RE: LY Goes Private

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:04 am

What you guys are thinking about is first and foremost the Nesher, an identical copy of the Mirage 5 (50 of which were supposed to be delivered to Israel by the French circa 1968). The design drawings were stolen, probably not without the help of some sympathetic Dassault personnel, perhaps with the unspoken approval of the French government. Despite the public embargo, France continued secretely supplying a few pieces of military equipment to the Israelis. A couple of surplus French AF Vautour bombers come to mind. As for the Nesher, it featured little if any Israeli improvements, it was powered by an Israeli manufactured copy of the loveable French Atar 9 engine for instance. 50 were made.

The Kfir, early versions of which appeared in 1973/4 did feature quite a bit of redesign work, mainly to accomodate the GE J79 engine, as well as some local avionics and an American ejection seat. Subsequent versions (C2, C7) were further developed.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
pmg1704
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RE: LY Goes Private

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:57 am

When the EU or EADS starts giving Israel foreign aid to the tune of however many billions of dollars, then maybe they'll buy airbus. The USGovt isn't handing over cash to spend freely, but rather to purchase things from the right American companies.

Then again the French did give Israel nuclear.....energy.
 
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N328KF
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RE: LY Goes Private

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:04 am

The ironic thing is that the Kfir wound up in U.S. service as the F-21, for dissimilar training. It was easier to support than it sounds, since it shared a lot of components with the F-4. (Engine, avionics, etc.)
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
ly7e7
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RE: LY Goes Private

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:51 am

Pmg1704,

It is true as long as you are dealing with the government.
No private company in Israel is obliged to buy anything from the US. (Unless it is subsidized)

LY744,

As you said, the Nesher was built by the blueprints secretly received via the French government. That wouldn't be the case with the Kfir and Lavi.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
FCKC
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RE: LY Goes Private

Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:52 am

LY7E7

Did you hear something about next plane purchases by LY?
7E7 ? 777-300ER ? A350 ?
What about Regional Jets ?
I remember to have read on magazines , maybe they would like to enter this market.
All comments will be welcome.
 
TLVFred
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RE: LY Goes Private

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:19 am

Flew LY this month with 2 kippa wearing stewards so they do employ orthodox jews. Really cannot believe how Israelis are so hateful of their fellow brethren. If a post like that came from an arab, we would be up in arms no?

And I dont think Shabbat is 'religeous fundamentalism' - surely its mainstream judaism!!!

Reason as is pointed out is that orthodox jews will not use any service that causes jews to work on shabbat eg - get a jewish driver to deliver packages on shabbat etc.

Remember my Israeli friends, we are all brothers - live and let live - you do what you like. Let the orthodox do what you like to.
 
ly7e7
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RE: LY Goes Private

Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:58 pm

FCKC,

I don't really have any info on that. But it seems to me that a 777-300 and 330 are the machines that will suit LY needs the most (7e7 is too far away time-wise).The next a/c will be mostly certainly leased and not bought. Regarding the regional jets - don't think that LY needs them at all.

TLVFred,

Perhaps there's a little misunderstanding - we are talking about the ultra-orthodox here. Saturday itself is not a fundamentalism of course, but state-made decisions in such issue are.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
PRGLY
Posts: 387
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RE: LY Goes Private

Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:46 am

First addition to the fleet will be 2 ex ATA 738, coming TLV beginning 2005
just fly - it is nice
 
BWI757
Posts: 380
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RE: LY Goes Private

Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:47 am

Greetings all,

First post! As a long time lurker, I have always enjoyed airliners.net and the forums, and have learned much from the discussions.I can tell I am a certified a-nutter since while @ BWI one day I saw an Antonov 124 landing and I exclaimed "HEY, LOOK AT THAT!", garnering instant attention from passwerby  Smile I'm not a guru like most of the folks here, so please forgive any errors on my part.

I was debating whether to respond to LY7e7 and LegendDC9's posts, but TLVFred 's post tipped the scale. A RR rating for you! I don't know how many Orthodox Jews read this forum, but I wish to make the following points:

1) I vivdly recall LY 's financial troubles - I was much younger then, so I do not recall the exact time frame. EL AL was flying on Saturday at the time, and was very much in the red. Orthodox Jews chose to fly TWA and other carriers since as TLVFred accuratly stated, they do not patronize businesses owned by Jews that are open on Saturday. What I DO remember that when LY changed it's policy, major full page ads were taken out in many Orthodox Jewish publications such as The Jewish Press publicizing this decision. The rest is history. I am afraid that if they start flying on Saturday again, they will once again wind up in the red - not something they can afford with Israel's economy in it's current state.

2) "The answer is that the ultra orthodox Jews will not fly LY if LY flies on Saturday. Why ? Stupid religious fundamentalism ("they are making other Jews work on Sat.").

It's not stupid religious fundametalisim despite what Tommy Lapid says. It's a religious belief, which you have stated correctly, namely that they will not patronize a business owned by Jews that operates on Saturday

" I hope LY can loose them as customers, they are only making the LY experience worse for other customers , by merely being on board."
Interesting. I always had a nice experince on the few times I flew LY. So if LY looses the Orthodox base, who's going to fill the seats on 17x + flights a week from JFK/EWR? Or the 777/774's that appear in the DB landing in LHR and ZRH? I'm sure other airlines would be happy to cash in. Of course, Continental has the added advantage of having Peter Max in the fleet so all the Jewish A-nutters will fly them instead  Big thumbs up.

OPINION: In addition, many Orthodox Jewish missions and aliyah charters specifically fly LY, I am sure as to give them the business.

3) Let's not forget the CO flys many orthodox jews to NYC and so did TW in it's day but you never hear complaints about them. The religious folks simply avoid flying on Saturdays and that's it. Welcome to the 20th century.

Last I checked, CO and TWA are/were not owned by Jews, so they don't have to worry about patronizing a business owned by Jews that operate on Saturday

OPINION: Given the way the European Union is encouraging boycotts of Jewish goods produced in Israel to protest the current conflict, and the general European attitude towards the State, I would find it interesting if Israel would give consideration to Airbus, and not to Boeing which is located in the US, their staunchest ally.


This topic also reflects the current political tensions between the Orthodox and non-Orthodox in Israel, and the dissatisfaction with the status quo - the discussion of which would be outside the scope of this forum.


Thanks
I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!
 
ly7e7
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RE: LY Goes Private

Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:32 am

Bwi757

Welcome on board  Smile

One of the many differences between a religious belief and fundamentalism is that a religious belief does not affect other people's life other than the one of the believer. Unfortunately this is not the case here. Who's gonna fill those seats? Frankly dear, I don't give a damn. There are more important things for a nation than its flag carrier business success. The EU pressure on Israel is justified to a certain extent. The financial and political outlook for 2005 looks bright and hopefully we'll see the end of the occupation. I hope that in the long run LY will be able to compensate for the loss of the ultra orthodox travelers. But it takes more then aviation. We can continue this at the non-av forum.

P.S. At least now ,as I've mentioned earlier, it will be a business decision.

P.P.S. Have you ever been in TLV on Saturday? If you have you had probably noticed that NORMAL PEOPLE ARE WORKING. Jewish or not. LY employs Jews on Saturdays. So do CO, LH, LX, AF, AZ ,LO, OS, you name it. It is all hypocrisy.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
rjpieces
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RE: LY Goes Private

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:15 am

LegendDC9-I hear what you are saying, but try convincing your employees, who most likely are orthodox Jews, to work on Saturday. Are you going to have the inflatable autopilot fly the planes? Are you going to put vending machines in the aircraft to do the safety demonstrations? Are you going to have the metal detectors do the work themselves, and have themselves stop passengers if they have something they shouldn't? Are you going to have machines do the Air Traffic Controlling in Israeli airspace? I hear what you are saying, but for orthodox Jewish people, the Sabbath is as sacred to them as Touchdown Jesus is to a Notre Dame football fan, Fenway Park is to a Boston Red Sox fan, and Old Trafford is to a Manchester United fan.

It is a very common misconception that Israel is filled with Religious Jews....A large majority of the population is secular.

Also, isn't the government still going to fund and be in control of LY security?

They whole orthodox thing is a joke anyways. If LY starts flying on saturdays do you realy expect them to stop their pilgrimige back and forth to Brooklyn? Who else would they fly?

LOL! As somebody who has lived in Brooklyn all his life, I can testify to how true that is!  Smile
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
legendDC9
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RE: LY Goes Private

Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:02 am

"It is a very common misconception that Israel is filled with Religious Jews....A large majority of the population is secular."

As far as misconceptions go, that's a mild one I can live with. It's all the other ones that are the real pain in the A**.

Bwi757, that was a very good post but I wanted to respond to your line:
"I am afraid that if they start flying on Saturday again, they will once again wind up in the red - not something they can afford with Israel's economy in it's current state."

El Al has been losing money for years, with or without the religious folks. Simply put, as a government controlled entity, the bottom line was not the most important factor. In a country like Israel, that has only been around for 50+ years, with diaspora all over the world, to have that control over a fleet of aircraft was more important than any profit margin. That aspect has been proven time and time again and there is no need to go through them. Nowadays, with privetization taking a greater role in Israel, with most of the Ethiopian and russian jews out of harms way, the country can relinquish some it's control. The end result is simple, planes that sit, don't make money. By operating 6 days a week instead of seven, you are automaticaly forgo 15% of your potential revenue. The religious groups will either have to adjust or find a different airline and all of a sudden, dare I say it... competition.
 
N1120A
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RE: LY Goes Private

Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:39 am

>Last I checked, CO and TWA are/were not owned by Jews<

I am sure that CO has and TWA had plenty of Jewish shareholders, so yes, they are/were part owned by Jews
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
BWI757
Posts: 380
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RE: LY Goes Private

Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:16 pm

LY7E7
Thanks for the welcome. Since LY was state-owned, there was the ruckus to stop flying on Saturday. I am curious, are there similar reactions to Arika operating on Saturday? I don't recall if Tower operated on Saturday, and it was owned by Nachtomi. Regarding the other issues - we can talk in non-av.

LegendDC9,

With all the talk on the boards regarding the very profitable routes to TLV by other carriers, and knowing that LY is often sold out, I am surprised to hear that they are not profitable. I was unable to find any financial data on them, can you provide a link? Does not need to be in English.

I'm not operations proficient, so I can't rebutt the 15% statement. However , at least on the NY runs, would it not be a loss to operate flights at less than capcity if they flew on Saturday?

You make a very valid statement regarding the competition.

N1120A
I own AT&T stock, about 5 shares. That does not make me a majority owner. If what you are saying is true, then Jews could not benefit from anything
I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!
 
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N328KF
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RE: LY Goes Private

Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:20 pm

Carl Icahn and Michael Milken never told TWA to not operate on Saturday.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
TW741
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RE: LY Goes Private

Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:50 pm

PRGLY:...but who knows, Izzy is very tough

Are you talking about "Izzy" Borovich? In case yes - I fully agree with "tough" (would even use a stronger word for that)  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

TWA - we showed you how good we have been!
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: LY Goes Private

Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:14 pm

are there similar reactions to Arika operating on Saturday?
They operate on Sat. and everybody's happy with that.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
PRGLY
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:55 pm

RE: LY Goes Private

Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:57 pm

TW741, yeah, he is the one I meant, i know him a little and I know a lot of people who know him either, and stronger word will suite, that is right
just fly - it is nice

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