BestWestern
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EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:29 pm

Interesting comments on the airbus and Boeing dispute from the EU commissioner on trade. Looks like the EU wont take this lying down.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh88232_2004-12-15_13-11-19_l15708213_newsml


Airbus's plans for the A350 have heightened tensions in the trans-Atlantic trade dispute. Airbus won approval from its shareholders last Friday to unleash a fresh marketing battle against Boeing by seeking orders for the new wide-body jet.

Mandelson said Airbus's plans for the A350 could only be viewed as provocation "by a rival that doesn't like competition. This market needs competition".

"Airbus's success is breeding envy and jealousy," he added. "Its expanding market share is clearly exerting pressure on its competitors, and this is the main driver of the dispute that has arisen between Airbus and Boeing."

EADS said on Friday it had not yet decided on whether to apply for government loans for development of the A350. Zoellick called the possible loans a "problem".

Airbus overtook Boeing as the world's largest manufacturer of big commercial jets last year, and both companies accuse the other of obtaining illegal subsidies.

Airbus has said it is entitled to apply for a third of the development cost under a 1992 European Union-U.S. trade deal, but Boeing maintains that deal is dead.

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sebolino
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealous

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:38 pm

The deal is dead ?


Since when ?




...
 
columbia107
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:45 pm

Certainly not envy when you have Airbus offering aircraft with a book value of US$55 million at circa US$30 million. At least that is what Reuter's is reporting when referring to the AirSong order for 40 short hall aircraft. Who on earth is going to refuse such an offer price.
My view is that Airbus strategy, with EU support (in order to keep highly qualified individuals employed) is to sell short hall aircraft to low cost airlines below book value with the purpose of selling long haul aircraft (with similar cockpit arrangements etc.) to the corresponding parent airline and which in fact carry a more lucrative profit margin.
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scbriml
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:48 pm

The deal is dead ?


Since when ?


Since the US unilaterally withdrew from the agreement a few weeks back.

"Airbus success breeding envy and jealousy" Wow, Mandelson must have been browsing on a.net!  Big thumbs up

Just one question - under the deal, Airbus could apply for 33% loans for development of new planes. The US now says the deal is dead, so what is to stop the EU giving Airbus a 100% loan for developing the A350?
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N79969
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:03 pm

When the US the filed with the WTO --the deal died. Actually the genesis of Airbus is rooted in the envy and jealously among Europeans at seeing the United States produce Boeing, McDonnell Douglas, and Lockheed jets in the 1960s and 1970s.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:11 pm

"Envy and jealousy"? Of course!! Boeing will never get used to the fact that somebody else could have overtaken them... Not being numero uno is so "un-American and unpatriotic", lol... The fact is, they should just swallow their pride and keep doing what they are doing best - making airplanes, not playing politics. It will only hurt them in the long run.
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columbia107
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:19 pm

It will only hurt them in the long run.

In what way?
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scotron11
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealous

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:55 pm

Boeing, Boeing, Gone! I do not think so! However, I do think this argument over subsidies to Airbus is Boeing trying to divert attention from the botched USAF refueling tanker fiasco. And more than likely a little politics entered into it because of the election, especially in Washington State, where Boeing aircraft are produced.

Subsidies? I feel Airbus is grown-up now, is making money, and should raise money privately, just like Boeing did for the 7E7. So what if Boeing received tax breaks, hell, even Airbus got tax breaks when they built their factories in the US!
 
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sebolino
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealous

Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:03 am

Just one question - under the deal, Airbus could apply for 33% loans for development of new planes. The US now says the deal is dead, so what is to stop the EU giving Airbus a 100% loan for developing the A350?

That's actually a very good question.
The deal was made to be sure that both part were not too strongly subsidized.
If the deal is broken, nothing forbid the EU to increase the loans, or even to give non repayable subsidies like Boeing has.

On the other hand, nothing would forbid the US gvt to increase the subsidies ... except the lack of cash.

Airbus would be forbidden in the US. So what ? That's not the biggest customer.
 
cannikin
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:05 am

Both are recieving help from their Govs, both are good companies. This is nothing more than a national pride war. A larger version of an A vs. B argument. Silly.
 
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sebolino
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealous

Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:12 am

Subsidies? I feel Airbus is grown-up now, is making money, and should raise money privately, just like Boeing did for the 7E7.

Unfortunately, that's not true. Japan is subsidizing the 7E7 project.

So what if Boeing received tax breaks, hell, even Airbus got tax breaks when they built their factories in the US!

Probably, but the tax break program built for Boeing is huge. 2,4 billions by the state of Washington. That's not "so what ?". That's subsidies.
 
greaser
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:25 am

Airbus would be forbidden in the US. So what ? That's not the biggest customer.

Don't you ever wonder that many of Airbus's biggest customers are American??
Guess not.
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cedarjet
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealous

Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:30 am

Airbus could never be banned in the US - since 40% of an Airbus is made of US components, there are a LOT of American jobs at stake. I would say that the demise of Airbus would harm the US nearly as badly as the demise of the Boeing Commerical Aeroplane ("Airplane"?) Division. Since only about 60% of a Boeing is made in the USA, and Airbus build more planes than Boeing, a healthy Airbus is probably as important to the US economy as Boeing Commercial.
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N79969
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:45 am

That tax break that Boeing may receive--any company can receive it. The state of Washington does not care. If Airbus want to build something in Washington state, they are free to do so and can ask for a tax break. Boeing cannot go to Brussels and ask for launch aid though.

The combined audacity or willful ignorance of history or both that are required to make such a remark about the U.S. is astounding. Like I said, Airbus was born out of European envy and jealously of the United States aerospace industry.

Although I very strongly hope that it does NOT occur, Airbus could be slapped with heavy tariffs for sales in the U.S. if the EU were to continue with is smoke-and-mirror position that every Boeing F-15 sale is actually a subsidy to BCAG.

The "Trojan Horse" effect of U.S. suppliers won't undermine the U.S. position really.
 
Maersk737
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:16 am

"That tax break that Boeing may receive--any company can receive it. The state of Washington does not care. If Airbus want to build something in Washington state, they are free to do so and can ask for a tax break. Boeing cannot go to Brussels and ask for launch aid though."

Are you sure ?

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sebolino
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealous

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:32 am

That tax break that Boeing may receive--any company can receive it. The state of Washington does not care

I doubt, but anyway that's not the point. Boeing is subsidized, period. Just like Airbus.
You admit it, very well.

Airbus could ask for it ? Yes, perhaps if they transfered all their prodution in the states. How hypocrite you are !


Although I very strongly hope that it does NOT occur, Airbus could be slapped with heavy tariffs for sales in the U.S

LOL

It would be funny to see the face of Boeing's top management when the EU would strike back with the same tariffs on Boeing in the EU.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
knoxibus
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:01 am

ignorance of history
European envy and jealously of the United States aerospace industry

As far as I am concerned, having great aircraft like Concorde and Caravelle (and i am sure I am missing on some other great planes) while Airbus was not even properly created doesn't show a particular envy or jealousy to my eyes.

I am not saying anything on the space program in those days (but considering the amount of money that was spent it would seem logic and the help of a lot of ex-german scientist, i.e. europeans)

And the brits invented the jet engine, etc...
..so yes, back in those days, I think we had every right to be jealous and build a company concept based on subsidies only and that would make crap aircraft sold at a stupid price...
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Scorpio
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:19 am

Boeing cannot go to Brussels and ask for launch aid though.

No, but they can go to Washington (D.C. in this case) and ask for launch aid. They won't get it, but that's Washington's problem, and not that of the EU. It's perfectly legal for Boeing to get launch aid under the 1992 bilateral. Washington not giving that aid is THEIR choice. The bilateral is not unfair for any manufacturer, because it allows for equal subsidies for both.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:35 am

"Subsidies? I feel Airbus is grown-up now, is making money, and should raise money privately, just like Boeing did for the 7E7. So what if Boeing received tax breaks, hell, even Airbus got tax breaks when they built their factories in the US!"

Finally, common sense from someone in Europe! Thank you Scotron11.  Smile

This is exactly the US argument. If Airbus is SO good and making money, let it stand on it's own two feet. Quit sucking off the government titty already.

Either that or let the US provide subsidies to Boeing at the same rate. Whats wrong Airbus, are you afraid that the massive economic power of the US ($10 TRILLION annually GDP and growing) would be brought into play against you?
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blackknight
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:30 am

This goes along with the discussion in the thread:
The end of an industry as we know it

See the link to the article in reply 16
BK
 
Planesmart
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:01 am

N79969
"Like I said, Airbus was born out of European envy and jealously of the United States aerospace industry."

Airbus was born out of frustration. Good aircraft built in Europe like the BAC111, Trident, Caravelle, Mercure were doomed to low sales.

European manufacturers were constantly opposed in the mkt place by US manufacturers with US Govt export finance, available at well below mkt rates, & with generous terms and conditions.

And a civil order was usually a requirement for access to US military aircraft.

U also ignore work the Govt has bought for the US aerospace industry. The one i'm most familiar with is the Goshawk. Even allowing for modifications, it could have been manufactured for nearly a lot less in the UK. Justification for US assembly was 'strategic importance'. Really just a Govt subsidy to the US aerospace industry.

The pendulum has swung, and now the squeeks are coming from the other side of the Atlantic. Gives us lots of topics to discuss here.
 
Leskova
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:02 am

Dayflyer, the US is permitted to give Boeing support by indirect means - funding of research and/or development programs, for example - whether they chose to do so or not, or whether they use the full bandwidth available under the agreement (not that that plays a role, since the US withdrew from the agreement) is their, the US's, decision.

What's allowed is this (from http://europa.eu.int/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/04/232&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en, titled EU – US Agreement on Large Civil Aircraft 1992: key facts and figures):
On the other hand, the agreement establishes that indirect support ( e.g. benefits provided for aeronautical applications of NASA or military programmes) should be limited to a 3% of the nation's LCA industry turnover. This discipline is primarily targeted at the support system in use in the US. In contrast to the European system of repayable launch investment there is no requirement for indirect support to be reimbursed and the generous ceiling of 3% is calculated on the larger basis of the turnover of the LCA industry and applies per individual year.


Nonetheless, like quite a few other Europeans on a.net I, too, would prefer it if both manufacturers stood on their own two feet - no direct and no indirect subsidies.

Unfortunately, and I've said this before as well, I don't really see that happening anytime soon - something for which I see both sides as responsible...

Regards,
Frank
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flyabunch
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealous

Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:14 am

"Subsidies? I feel Airbus is grown-up now, is making money, and should raise money privately, just like Boeing did for the 7E7. So what if Boeing received tax breaks, hell, even Airbus got tax breaks when they built their factories in the US!"

Not to whip a dead horse, but companies asking for subsidies from states, counties, and even cities in the U.S. to finance a new plant is quite common. Even smaller companies can apply for and get such aid. It is all part of politicians insuring their reelection by making sure that they create jobs for their constituents.

Mike
 
rabenschlag
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:56 am

Not to whip a dead horse, but companies asking for subsidies from states, counties, and even cities in the U.S. to finance a new plant is quite common. Even smaller companies can apply for and get such aid. It is all part of politicians insuring their reelection by making sure that they create jobs for their constituents.

really? so you mean that direct subsidies to whatever companies are a widespread means of american economic policies? if so, why complain about europe with it's few state owned companies and direct subsidies?

you mean, every company which creates jobs in the US can benefit from these subsidies? i believe that. we have seen that happening with BMW and Mercedes when they set up their plants in the south.

but, the same is true the other way around, EU subsidies for US companies if they produce in the EU. talk about AMD's plant near dresden, germany, or GE's new research facilities near munich....


i must confess that i am sick and tired of the constant sissy whining of some US a.net fellows about unfair subsidies, especially with the amount of direct (not repayable or anything, just plain money) and indirect subsidies pumped into the 7e7. it reflects a bad and truly unamerican attitude: that of a bad loser.








 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:14 am

Can anyone direct me to a source that would provide a record of the monies repaid by each Airbus airplane model for the EU launch aid loans?

The terms for re-payment would also be of interest, i.e. how many airplanes had to be sold before re-payments began, what was the typical re-payment amount per airplane, interest rates, etc.

Thanks, Old Aero Guy
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Ken777
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:28 am

Most cities and states in the US develop incentives to lure plants (read jobs) into their area. I live in little old Tulsa and we've done it. More impressive is the fact that the people here went to the polls and passed bond issues to support individual incentives - like financing the building of a plant.

Other forms of incentives are tax relief (especially in terms of property taxes) and infrastructure development, like roads or rail access.

Can any company get these incentives? Easily if they are going to add jobs to the economy. It doesn't have to be aerospace either. We've done it for school buses, toilet paper and washing machines.

With the 7E7 there were a lot of offers made to Boeing, Washington state simply came up with the best one of the bunch.

The objective of incentives is to bring jobs into an area. Transplanting this concept to the Airbus environment, Spain or Italy could have provided more incentives to build the 380 in their country. The UK could have come up with a better offer and taken away the assembly plant. Was there any reason to build it in France? None except the probable incentives that Airbus received, infrastructure support, etc.

Incentives are different than subsidies as they relate to where a plant will be built. You can be sure that France knows that and is VERY good at providing incentives - they did get the 380 production, didn't they?
 
Leskova
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:43 am

OldAeroGuy, I think you'll find what you're interested in on page 22 of EADS' "Financial Statements and Corporate Governance 2003" publication...

http://www.eads.net/xml/content/OF00000000400004/3/00/29655003.pdf

... where they list the "breakdown of total amounts of European
government refundable advances outstanding, by
product/project".

While it's not the total they've received over the years, although I somehow remember seeing that in there somewhere as well, it shows what amounts are currently still open.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Planesmart
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:48 am

Try searches on S&P, Reuters and Bloomfield.

Notes in published accounts may give some idea, but you won't be able to determine who they are from, for what, etc.

The information you want on A isn't available for B either. What loans has B available and/or drawn down for the 7e7? What are the repayment terms, in particular 'trigger' events, like sales milestones? Can they re-draw loans after repayment if they develop a new variant? What loans, etc have all the risk sharing partners and sub-contractors obtained and what are there terms and conditions?

And if you want to take it to the nth degree, what technologies are A & B using that have been developed from other civil, and especially military contracts, and what has been paid to use these technologies & expertise?


 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:28 am

Thanks Leskova. It will be interesting to see what's out there and what can be gleaned.

PlaneSmart, one step at a time. First Airbus and then Boeing, although I'm unaware that Boeing has ever received re-payable government loans to fund new aircraft development.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Hamlet69
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:52 am

"The deal is dead ?
Since when ?
"

The U.S. announced (I believe in Oct.) that they are voiding the 1992 GATT agreement. According to the articles agreed to by both parties, this means that 12 months from this announcement (Oct. 2005), the agreement is dead.


"Just one question - under the deal, Airbus could apply for 33% loans for development of new planes. The US now says the deal is dead, so what is to stop the EU giving Airbus a 100% loan for developing the A350?"

Three words- World Trade Organization. Remember that the 1992 GATT agreement was a private pact between the U.S. and the E.U. This pact allowed subsidies, limited to 33%. According to several rulings by the WTO since then, their position is clear: any significant subsidies (10%+) are illegal (one particular case, IIRC in 1995, is the most similar to the present argument). However, Airbus continued to receive launch aid (for example the A380), nor did the U.S. challenge this, as the 1992 deal legalized this aid.

Something to note: the U.S. is not challenging any aid Airbus has already received, only that they can no longer receive more.


"That tax break that Boeing may receive--any company can receive it. The state of Washington does not care. If Airbus want to build something in Washington state, they are free to do so and can ask for a tax break. Boeing cannot go to Brussels and ask for launch aid though.

Are you sure ?
"

Yes, he's sure. In fact, the state of Washington has quietly been talking to Bombardier about assembling the new C-Series here. I don't believe it will happen, but if they (or anyone else) chose to, then they would be allowed to receive the same tax breaks. In addition, BMW, Mercedes and Honda have all received nice incentives to build assembly plants in the U.S., which again shows that U.S. tax breaks are not limited to U.S. companies


"Boeing is subsidized, period. Just like Airbus."

Boeing gets government money/support in three major forms. 1) tax breaks 2) military expenditures 3) advanced R&D (i.e., NASA).

1) Already discussed above. From what I understand from my British friends, both BAe Systems and EADS also get certain tax breaks for being major employers in their certain areas of operation. I don't know the details, so someone please elaborate.

2) The biggest comlaint from Europe, seemingly. Boeing competes for certain (and numerous  Smile/happy/getting dizzy) military contracts. This competition is often paid for by the government with certain caps. Any expenditure beyond that cap is paid for by the individual companies (Boeing, Lockheed, Northrup, etc.). Should Boeing win a contract, the government then buys whatever product the competition was for, similar to an airline buying a commercial plane. The biggest complaint from both Europe and American taxpayers is that the government is overpaying Boeing and others for military projects. Unfortunately, it is also hard to prove, as military items don't really have a 'commercial' value, now do they?

EADS & BAe Systems receive these same type of contracts from European governments, as well whatever foreign buyers they can find. The Eurofighter, Rafael, A400M, etc. are all good examples, and are funded in the same manner as the C-17, F/A-18E/F, F/A-22, V-22, etc. In fact, EADS receives more income from their European military contracts than Boeing's military division does from the U.S. government.

3) Probably the most open to criticism, as some of this government funded R&D can eventually find its way throughout the company. Again, a similar arangement can be found in Europe with the ESA and various European manufacturers.

So going back to your point, yes, Boeing receives government support, but not "Just like Airbus." The sticking point is that BAe Systems and EADS receive the same types of government support as Boeing does, but then Airbus receives launch aid in addition to the other forms of government aid to its parent companies.

Sorry for the long reply,

Hamlet69
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scbriml
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:52 pm

Three words- World Trade Organization. Remember that the 1992 GATT agreement was a private pact between the U.S. and the E.U.

And that would worry the EU how? I believe the US is currently simply ignoring a number of WTO rulings against it. The WTO is a toothless organisation.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
707lvr
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:46 pm

Clearly, very few people in here or elsewhere have actually read the bill which gave Boeing the Washington State tax "subsidies." All it did was move aerospace companies from the rate category of renderers and nuclear waste disposers down to the B&O tax rate paid by most other companies, over a twenty year time frame.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:53 pm

"Envy and jealousy"? Of course!! Boeing will never get used to the fact that somebody else could have overtaken them... Not being numero uno is so "un-American and unpatriotic", lol... The fact is, they should just swallow their pride and keep doing what they are doing best - making airplanes, not playing politics. It will only hurt them in the long run.

It's quality and value, not quantity and devaluation that matters.
 
warren747sp
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:56 pm

It's the best public works program in the world.!
Certain to bring envy and jealousy from the unemployable world wide.
W
747SP
 
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sebolino
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealous

Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:10 pm

The U.S. announced (I believe in Oct.) that they are voiding the 1992 GATT agreement. According to the articles agreed to by both parties, this means that 12 months from this announcement (Oct. 2005), the agreement is dead.

Oh, I didn't notice we were in 2005, sorry.


Three words- World Trade Organization. Remember that the 1992 GATT agreement was a private pact between the U.S. and the E.U. This pact allowed subsidies, limited to 33%. According to several rulings by the WTO since then, their position is clear: any significant subsidies (10%+) are illegal (one particular case, IIRC in 1995, is the most similar to the present argument). However, Airbus continued to receive launch aid (for example the A380), nor did the U.S. challenge this, as the 1992 deal legalized this aid.

Plain wrong on 2 topics.

1) The loans are not illegal, they are permitted by the agreement. Airbus doesn't receive a 33% subsidies, that's ridiculous. They receive an aid max of 33% of the R&D cost, that they pay back with interests. The 10% you are talking about is 10% of the turnover, not for loans. Absolutely not the same.

This pact allowed subsidies, limited to 33%
One more time wrong. It allows repayable loans as high as 33% of the R&D costs , or subsidies as high as 3% of the turnover, directly or indirectly.


2) Boeing receives launch aid, especially by Japan for the 7E7, and by different local organization, in particular the state of Washington, which want the jobs.

Once again, the difference is that Boeing keeps the money, not Airbus.
 
Planesmart
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:06 pm

In the last 7yrs the US govt has imposed tariffs on NZ butter, lamb, steel and aluminium.

When NZ complained to the WTO, the US dragged out the review processes until the last possible moment, then withdrew the tariffs. Meanwhile 2-3yrs have elapsed.

The NZ economy is a fraction of the size of the USA, yet it's OK to beat up a little country.

Europe (EADS shareholders) and the USA are much closer in size.

Seems like when your opponent is closer to your own size, or bigger, you think a different set of rules should apply.
 
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glideslope
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RE: EU "Airbus's Success Breeding Envy And Jealousy"

Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:08 pm

We are ready.

If I were the EU Commissioner I would be much more concerned over who is bugging who's conversations in EADS meetings? Not a good situation for EU consensus. Just what is the percentage of Germans these days that approve of France's meddling? ROFLOL. Maybe you are not that much different than in the US???? I'd spend a lot more time watching your own backyard than issuing hollow verbiage on our joyously over EADS.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu