rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

Continental To Take Over LGA?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:07 pm

Just wondering what you all think about the idea of Continental beefing up their position at LGA so that they are ready to take over in the event that US Airways goes under. If Continental fills the shoes of US at LGA, assuming US goes under, they will completely dominate NYC, one of the most important aviation markets in the world.

In a few years, we could see CO with their own terminal at LGA operating the BOS-LGA-DCA Shuttle as well as some flights to a handful of other key business cities...All while having a superstrong global hub at EWR not too far away. Thoughts?

[Edited 2004-12-16 08:09:18]
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:14 pm

I personally think there is a greater likelihood of B6 beefing up at LGA than CO. Also, some of the WN people here have mentioned that the vaccum left by a failure of US may decongest an NYC airport enough to get them to finally go into the New York market
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:39 pm

If congestion were the only factor they were considering... they would've moved into JFK long time ago.

There's a good bit more at play here  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
PVG
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:39 pm

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:13 pm

Why didn't WN move into JFK earlier. They left a wide opening for B6? Anyone familiar with their thinking?
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:58 pm

I continue to assert that WN dropped the ball BIG TIME in leaving JFK open.

Yes, it can be congested during the transatlantic rush.... but one can essentially go bowling on JFK's runways during the morning and early afternoons.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
avek00
Posts: 3160
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:15 pm

"Just wondering what you all think about the idea of Continental beefing up their position at LGA so that they are ready to take over in the event that US Airways goes under."

No need for CO to do this - CO OWNS the US LGA terminal, and has the right to occupy the terminal should US default on its lease obligations.
Live life to the fullest.
 
EZYcrew
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:22 pm

Isn't LGA slot controlled? Can CO really pick up slots as it wants (even if US folds) ? Aren't slots there granted by some authorities (don't remember who though)?
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:25 pm

Avek-Continental does NOT own the US Airways Terminal. However, Continental owns the lease on the terminal, and US Airways subleases the terminal from them.

Ezycrew-LaGuardia Airport is one of two US Airports where the slots are actually governed by the FAA (the other, unsurprisingly, is Washington-National).
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13502
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:56 pm

Avek-Continental does NOT own the US Airways Terminal.

Source, please? This is contrary to what I've been told as well.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:58 pm

If LGA is smart they'll close half the slots that open up and save them some delay headaches.
 
avek00
Posts: 3160
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:01 am

From CO's 2004 Shareholder Proxy:

"We remain contingently liable for US Airways’ obligations under a lease agreement between US Airways and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey related to the East End Terminal at LaGuardia airport. These obligations include the payment of ground rentals to the Port Authority and
the payment of principal and interest on special facilities revenue bonds issued by the Port Authority with an outstanding balance of $174 million at December 31, 2003 and having a final scheduled maturity in 2015. If US Airways defaults on these obligations, we will be required to cure the default,
and we would have the right to occupy the terminal after US Airways’ interest in the lease had been terminated."

I do stand corrected on the lease v. ownership issue; however, my bottom line assertion remains.
Live life to the fullest.
 
wbmech
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:02 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:27 am

I don't think WN will enter the NYC market because of the expense involved and the way their business model is structured. If they enter this market their fixed costs would rise so high, that they would be just another airline when it comes to cost structure. Their low cost model isn't based on low labor costs,(they pay all their employees well) but I believe mostly on low airports costs. Thus going into all the secondary airports where the landing fees and terminal leases are next to nothing compared to NYC's big three as well as some other major airports around the country.
 
ramerinianair
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:10 am

2 things about LGA an the slots.
1-SHUP,
Yea, LGA is controlled by slots and it is up to the FAA not the airlines. Slots can be sold however. US will not sell their slots to a competitor- it is most likely that they will sell their slots to a bank or financing firm and pay them a fee per month-this to get some fast cash.
Even if the slots go to WN or B6, what gates are they going to use??? CO can reject them at the US terminal and there are very limited gates available in the Cantral terminal-rarely are there gates "open" next to each other.
2-SLOTS ARE TOO EXPENSIVE FOR WN! In their current business plan, slots are too expensive. The yields suck for the most part to florida, where I'm sure they'd want to fly. Add the slots cost on that! I don't think WN will be in the LGA market unless they undergo a large transformation.
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:41 am

Remember, prior to 9/11, CO has started a fairly large presence in LGA. There were mainline flights to Florida; there were a few RJ cities, like GRR and MSN, I believe, that were being served from LGA.

Trust me, CO is watching LGA closely. If US succumbs, CO will, I believe, beef up service there, be it with mainline and/or RJ'S.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13502
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:08 am

Avek, thanks for the clarification on the lease vs. ownership issue of the terminal at LGA. I agree with Alpha 1/Falcon 84 though - look for CO to move their operations from the central terminal to the US (former EA shuttle) terminal and expand mainline and RJ ops from LGA considerably.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:22 am

CO has EWR, why do they need LGA?
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12427
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:25 am

There is no doubt that CO could take over the lease of the LGA terminal if US dies, but there are questions as to if they could get the slots. Assuming the slots could be transferred to CO, the next problems would be CO finding aircraft in their fleets to run out of LGA, expanding the ground staffing. I am quite sure CO would want to mostly run newer 737's or Jungle Jets out of there, but where could they get them from (ATA?). Also, what about the commuter flights under US's banner, could those slots be transferred or would the commuter lines keep them? If CO were to take over, I could see them going for the LGA-BOS-DCA shuttle service, as it is a cash cow and taking over the business base routes US operates (like Challotte), not so much the tourist (i.e. Florida) routes, which JetBlue could take over. I doubt WN will go into LGA due to the traffic, weather delays that would wreak havoc with their system.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4448
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:43 am

CO did run a bunch of RJs out of LGA to second-tier cities in the summer of 2001. Since these flights just about the first cancelled after 9/11, the expansion was presumably a flop. I'm not so sure they would want to try LGA again, except possibly for the BOS/DCA shuttle flights. One of these days the shuttle routes will be profitable again.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:49 am

>>CO has EWR, why do they need LGA?<<

1) LGA closest to NYC business center.
2) Market share.

There are few opportunities in the US domestic market for profitable growth... LGA opening up is one of them. And I believe it would complement CO's EWR hub nicely.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13502
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:50 am

CO has EWR, why do they need LGA?

While CO's presence at EWR is huge, millions of people in Queens, Brooklyn and Long Island find it inconvenient to get to, and would rather use LGA if they could. LGA can be a pain operationally for airlines, but it's worth it.

NYC being the number one market in the nation, gaining any market share there - even if you already have a large one to begin with - translates to millions of dollars to your bottom line.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:53 am

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Trust me, CO is watching LGA closely. If US succumbs, CO will, I believe, beef up service there, be it with mainline and/or RJ'S.

Any idea what mainline routes they are looking at?

Also, I was trying to think about how CO might run the Shuttle. Do you think they would have a dedicated fleet ( a la Delta) or operate normal mainline aircraft (a la US Airways)? It seems like the 319s and 733s that US and DL use are too much capacity today...Maybe a dedicated fleet of Embraer 190s?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:07 am

>LaGuardia Airport is one of two US Airports where the slots are actually governed by the FAA (the other, unsurprisingly, is Washington-National).<

Actually, the slots are governed by the DOT, not the FAA.

>I don't think WN will enter the NYC market because of the expense involved and the way their business model is structured.<

B6 has a lower CASM and flies out of JFK every day

>If they enter this market their fixed costs would rise so high, that they would be just another airline when it comes to cost structure.<

Now we know that is not true, otherwise LAX, SEA, BWI, DTW, STL, etc. would have already done that

>Thus going into all the secondary airports<

You mean like they don't do in LAX, SEA, BWI, DTW, STL, FLL, RDU, and more?

>where the landing fees and terminal leases are next to nothing<

See above and add that LAX is a good example of where WN flies from one of the most attractive terminals (Terminal 1, the first one in, and easy out because of the cut in the loop to 7 and the airport exit) that the need more space in?

>compared to NYC's big three as well as some other major airports around the country<

Do you know how easy B6 got it at JFK because they brought some low fare competition there?

I agree with Fred about WN missing the boat on JFK, though I think they have been leary about markets that are rather open to big snow and congestion delays, as went their experience at DEN
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ClipperAurora
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:26 am

CO has also been asking info about AIRWAYS in DCA......can anyone say Continental Shuttle!
//////// FLY THE FLAG
 
NWADC9
Posts: 3940
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:33 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:08 am

Continental Shuttle Big grin
Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:27 am

So, can we paint some of the CO planes red again and call them New York Air.

That would be really cool!
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:33 am

CO would be a great thing at LGA. I would fly them all the time if they were not holed up in EWR, which is so far and expensive to get too from the Upper East Side and Westchester where I work and play...

They are a great airline with great planes and service. Second only to Jetblue in my opinion in the New York area.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:27 am

>>which is so far and expensive to get too from the Upper East Side and Westchester<<

How is $13.55 any more expensive than a cab ride to LaGuardia? ($2 to Penn, $11.55 train to EWR)
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:36 am

LGA, $25 cab ride from Upper East Side and 20 mins (max). EWR- a walk to the subway, 3 subway trains, a NJ transit train, and the Airport Train (1.5 hours?) OR a $70 dollar- 50 minute (at least) cab ride. I know what I am talking about here as I am a 30 year resident of the city.

From Westchester- its even more complicated... not sure why that is hard to understand. I suppose if I had a lot of free time, then EWR would be more attractive.

I do like CO though and have/will consider using them when flying overseas due to their superior product (IMO). LGA would be a great base for them. If the operated out of the US Airways terminal, it would be even nicer- as that terminal has the most space and best restaurants.

US Airways is OK- but they are very regionally restricted and do not match CO's service.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:47 am

>> I know what I am talking about here as I am a 30 year resident of the city.<<

Irrelevant.

Was simply speaking to your prior post that EWR was more expensive to get to than LGA. It is not. Longer to get to, yes.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
exFATboy
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:15 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:33 am

Actually, even on public transport, EWR is more expensive to get to than LGA from Manhattan - you can get to LGA for $2 if you really want to and have the time: subway or bus to 125th St., M60 bus to LGA.

I've done it. Okay if you only have a carry-on, otherwise a pain in the butt of biblical scope.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:35 am

True ExFATboy... Very True.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
jetbluefan1
Posts: 2870
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:39 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:57 am

I actually think CO should try moving into the Long Island scene. JFK has too much competition, but I honestly think that they'd do well at ISP. The Long Island crowd is very hip and high class for the most part and CO caters to that crowd much better than WN. Also, they would not be losing any passengers from EWR because a Long Islander would NEVER go to EWR for a flight (it takes 2 hours on average to drive there -- trust me, the George Washington Bridge is rarely a pretty site), as JFK, LGA, and - to a lesser extent - ISP, are more convenient (in that it doesn't offer as many flights or choices of airlines as the other 2).

LGA would still be a very competitive place to make a large operation out of, even if it doesn't have WN. AA and DL have a great presence, and every single other airline there offers many frequencies to hubs and focus cities.

My thoughts.

JetBluefan1
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13502
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:11 am

>> I know what I am talking about here as I am a 30 year resident of the city.<<

Irrelevant.

Was simply speaking to your prior post that EWR was more expensive to get to than LGA. It is not. Longer to get to, yes.


Irrelevant? Hardly, although it seems like you've chosen to dismiss his point since it contradicted yours.  Insane

Sure, you can get to EWR inexpensively via the AirTrain - IF the times coincide with yours, and IF you're willing to haul your luggage on the train, etc...but not everyone is willing or able to do that.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
FLAIRPORT
Posts: 3863
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 10:46 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:27 am

just a few comments:
you can get to LGA for $2 if you really want to and have the time: subway or bus to 125th St., M60 bus to LGA.
Don't remind me...Winter 2000...day trip with school...we left LGA and boarded the M60 to 125th ST...then, being idiot out of towners, we transfered to a BUS to Wall Street! (we had left on the 6am flight...got to LGA at 8am and got to Wall Street at 10am!)
Plus, when we did take the Subway to 125th Street, we almost got lost...TWICE! We almost ended up at JFK, and then the train went express...luck had it that we were able to get off at 125th! But, hey, it was $2! and we couldn't fit a group of 20 in a taxi!

Anyway, should CO move to the USAirways terminal, that would leave 5-6 gates open in concourse A. jetBlue could move from A5 to any other lower number and operate all FLL flights from there. Additionally, Canjet would move to A5 and Air Canada would operate some flights from that gate as well. So that would leave 4-5 for WN or B6 to take over...assuming one would want/get the slots. So, gates are not the issue here, it's slots.
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:25 am

ok guys.... At expressjet the rumer is.. If Us airways goes under COEX will go in LGA with a specifically designed jet made for express.... It's basically the a cross between the 170 and 190...... The mechanics said they have gotten whime of this. Along with alot of other people. I know everyone is going to say express can't operate anything over 50 seats for CO but we can. Aslong as it's not in a CO hub. LGA is not a CO hub. Since our operating costs are less then JB and all other airlines in LGA let's just see I don't see us having a problem finding our market share...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
ckfred
Posts: 4736
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:34 pm

Remember one thing, American Eagle is already running a BOS-LGA-DCA shuttle. If it appears that US is about to shut down, AA starts to pull MD-80s out of the desert and replace the RJs on the shuttle.

My assumption is that CO also has aircraft stored in the desert that are available for a shuttle, but it needs to get the US terminal prepared for CO flights (computers, staff, etc.) and it needs slots. AA already has staff, gates, and slots.

That's not to say that CO won't try to fly other routes out of LGA. AA flies a lot of routes out of LGA, even though it is building a new terminal at JFK. But I don't think CO can get a shuttle going fast enough to compete with DL and an expanded AA shuttle.
 
nycfuturepilot
Posts: 773
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:50 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:17 pm

I think it may be possible for WN to start flying to the NY area from MDW soon if ATA folds. There would be no LCC competition on this route and MDW is a hub for WN so they would be able to get pax into nyc from all over.
Father, Son, HOYA spirit
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Continental To Take Over LGA?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:58 pm

EA CO AS: Although as usual, your post contributes nothing to the topic at hand, I'll respond by reiterating that length of time that one has lived in a city doesn't mean that one can't be mistaken on how much it costs to get to the airport. Petazulu got all bent out of shape for no reason... I simply was questioning how $13.55 was more than a cab ride to LGA... I thought I was misunderstanding something, and indeed, ExFATboy reminded me that one can take public transport to LGA for $2.

Considering you live in PHX, I'm not sure on what basis you project yourself as an authority on NYC mass transit, but I would suggest you get over yourself.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.