wingnutmn
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NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:12 am

With all the talk of the success that CO is having flying 757 to europe from EWR, Would it not make sense for NW to try and get into PHL (not as a focus city) or maybe even PIT and try and set up a 757 hub to fly to europe?

They could fly to LGW, SNN, OSL (seasonal), KEF, BHX, MAN, CDG, AMS and CPH.

I don't see this as lose-lose situation for NW because they could fly an extra flight to each hub and increase connections, they also could get over flow traffic or vise versa with CO out of NW, and they could go after US in the process. Does any of this make sense, or am I just dreaming here?

WingnutMN
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burnsie28
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:16 am

CPH, KEF, and OSL would work better out of MSP with a widebody being the fact that their are many "northerners" in the twin cities and around MN. Just like Icelandair flies MSP-KEF-MSP with their 757's.
 
luv2fly
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:16 am

Dreaming as far as PIT goes the O/D numbers are just nor there for the flights! PHL maybe?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
ATLhomeCMH
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:21 am

Wouldn't PIT be kind of a non-issue, considering that geographically its nearly the same distance from Europe that DTW is?

Too bad there wasn't more available space at BOS for that.
"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:25 am

CPH, KEF, and OSL would work better out of MSP with a widebody being the fact that their are many "northerners" in the twin cities and around MN.

When Northwest launched MSP-OSL service in 1999 to much fanfare, the daily DC-10 service lasted less than seven months.
a.
 
Stretch 8
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:29 am

The ONLY place that makes sense for NW to increase its service to the EU is DTW, end of story. They (NW) spent millions on the new terminal, which has received rave reviews for both domestic and international connections.
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
727LOVER
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:33 am

Too bad there wasn't more available space at BOS for that.

Didn't NW used to have a transatlantic hub to Europe from BOS?
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m404
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:35 am

It would depend on the availability of ETOP 757s that NW has and the costs of converting more if needed. We already know they cannot get more -300s. We keep hearing from A.netters about NW and Ireland and that does seem like a suitable acft for that. With the shift in all the US carriers to International routes because of the low yield of domestic routes it will not be long before those are oversaturated as well.
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bobnwa
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:40 am

The NWA 752's are not ETOP'S and I don't believe there are any plans to make them so. The 753's which are ETOP'S, do not have the range for profitable trans-atlantic flights.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:42 am

Actually the flights were full, but ended after codeshare agreements with the local carrier fell apart.
 
bluejackets
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:24 am

NW couldn't fly the 752!, there's no IFE!!!!!!, pax would go bored to death and starting dropping into the pond!!!
It's funny when I tell people I love planes and they think I'm weird.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:27 am

NW couldn't fly the 752!, there's no IFE!!!!!!, pax would go bored to death and starting dropping into the pond!!!

They are equipped for it, and would be made availible across the pond in the unlikely event that it happened, just like NW does on the 753's to hawaii.  Big grin
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:35 am

Actually the flights were full, but ended after codeshare agreements with the local carrier fell apart
MSP-OSL were never all that full after the introduction. The codeshare wit Braathens didn't end until 3 years after. We still codeshared with them out of AMS for that time. It just did not generate the traffic that they'd hoped.

The NWA 752's are not ETOP'S and I don't believe there are any plans to make them so
They aren't ETOP's qualified, but ships 5636-5649 were built with partial ETOP's provisionings. But you're probably right, they may not use them for such.
Made from jets!
 
neilalp
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:42 am

NW couldn't fly the 752!, there's no IFE!!!!!!, pax would go bored to death and starting dropping into the pond!!!

Well I took ATA 757 across the pond from DTW-FRA. I don't recall it having IFE, but it was about 10 years ago. Nothing like a cramed 757 on an 8 hour flight.
 
PanAm747
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:49 am

The reason CO is so successful with their European flights is their high number of O&D passengers into the New York area. Philadelphia, despite its size, is not a large enough market to justify NW's expansion into that area. Consider also the connecting traffic that would have to be routed to PHL through MSP, DTW, and MEM. Two connections? Not really feasible.

Here's another way to think of it. CO flies to Asia, but mostly for IAH and EWR. From Las Vegas, a CO frequent flier is not going to choose LAS-IAH-NRT. Although possible, that's not CO's market. But United will quickly connect that person through SFO and LAX. It's the same with NW - from the west and midwest, connecting through MSP or DTW is not an issue, but for someone on the east coast, it's not likely they want to backtrack. No airline can please everyone, so they get as many as they can.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:21 am

From Las Vegas, a CO frequent flier is not going to choose LAS-IAH-NRT

No but they would likely take NW since NW has a LAS-LAX flight, so they would go LAS-LAX-NRT all on NW metal, but i see your point.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:17 am

Actually the flights were full, but ended after codeshare agreements with the local carrier fell apart
MSP-OSL were never all that full after the introduction. The codeshare wit Braathens didn't end until 3 years after. We still codeshared with them out of AMS for that time. It just did not generate the traffic that they'd hoped.


My mistake, I thought that I read that they were full.
 
N1120A
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:29 am

>No but they would likely take NW since NW has a LAS-LAX flight, so they would go LAS-LAX-NRT all on NW metal, but i see your point<

That is why that was upgraded from a DC-9 to an A319 and the A319 still goes overbooked in all classes everyday, NW FF's and Japanese tourists. If it were not for equipment rotation problems it would be at least an A320, probably a 757
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
NWADTWFA
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:13 pm

LAS-LAX was never intened to operate as a DC9. It only operated that way for the first week. A DC9 on that route would not be good fleet utilization as there are no other DC9's in or out of LAS or LAX.

Cheers,
NWADTWFA
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:35 pm

A DC9 on that route would not be good fleet utilization as there are no other DC9's in or out of LAS or LAX.
That's partly due to the fact that we're the only airline in the US that operates the DC9. Big thumbs up
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jetjack74
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:00 pm

My mistake, I thought that I read that they were full

Well they were in the very beginning, but the loads took a serious nose-dive in late-July, which was a leading indicator that the low yeilds would not get better. I believe it was October when the route was suspended. It was one of the shortest spans that NW operated a route in it's history.Accoding to folklore, part of the reason started flying was they were sucked into believing that they would have a strong originating/terminating traffic. A tragic miscalculation if it was true.
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kkfla737
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:10 pm

NW used Boston as a transatlantic gateway from 1982-83 to around 1992. It didn't work for them. Flying from Detroit has proven to be more successful for their core traffic which is from the midwest.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:08 pm

Well the Boston mini-hub started to come apart in 1996. BOS-AMS-BOM patterns still exist. We had several west coast and south Florida cities from BOS nonstop.
Made from jets!
 
AA B777-200
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:04 pm

I agree with Stretch8,

NW should remain focussed on DTW, that's it. I think they (NW) are doing just fine with KLM (and now AF).
They tried PHL-AMS before and that didn't work.
I just hope that the transatlantic DC10s will be replaced SOON with more 333s.
 
RyanAFAMSP
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:13 pm

The bottom line is that the industry is in a chronic state of overcapacity. Every major has negative margins except for NW, whose are basically flat. The LAST thing anyone needs to do is dump more seats into any market. EVERY legacy carrier's solution to the crisis is to pour more capacity into international. Can't make money on ATL-LAX? Fly to China! Can't make money on EWR-SFO? Fly a second TLV! When everyone has the same solution to the problem, they will only create more of a problem.

NW has been successful because of their shrewd analysis of trends in the marketplace and the refusal to waste capital on pie in the sky ideas. IND, MKE, FNT, etc. are underserved. The NRT hub as fantastic traffic and yield potential. Trying to stretch the shit out of 757s they bought 20 years ago for MSP-DCA to be the second competitor in in KEF and OSL sounds like the worst possible idea in the current marketplace.

Keep the 757s in the fortress hubs ripping Minnesotans and Michiganders off going to the west coast. It has worker forever!
 
vadheim
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:48 pm

I think a B757 service between Minneapolis and Scandinavia would work though!

Minneapolis area has the largest "Scandinavian" population in America.
 
BestWestern
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:58 pm

Honestly - the only non MSP and DTW trans-atlantic flying I see NW doing are using the 330 from MEM - to AMS, LGW and CDG.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
trent900
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:18 pm

They could always fly to STN.  Innocent CO's flights were always full but for some reason they pulled out just after 9/11. Used it as an excuse I suppose.


Trent.
 
BestWestern
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:01 pm

Trent, I know its early - please apply some brain power.. An airline wouldnt pull a profitable long haul route, now would they.  Sad

Transatlantic is not a pot of gold airliners.net thinks it is. The average profit margin on transatlantic routes over the last twenty years for north american carriers is 0.4%... When you remove the three largest loss makers from the equation (Pan AM, TWA and Delta) the average margin is only 4% - which doesnt even cover cost of capital for buying the aircraft - the airlines would be better off leaving the money in the bank.

You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
mtnmanmakalu
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:32 pm


NWA used to fly PHL-AMS a few years back but pulled the plug on low load factors. When I worked the flights, they were very light- 100 pax on a DC-10.

As stated earlier, NWA still flies BOS-AMS-BOM. I don't see any other Europe flying from the East coast, only more build-up in DTW and MSP....
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:03 am

Also, the PHL-AMS fares were heavily discounted and still couldn't draw any traffic. We lost over 30 million on that route the 21 months we flew it.

I spoke to a CSA at BOS about the AMS flight, It does extremely well out of there. It has a ton of originating passengers going to southern Asia(India/Pakistan).

Vadheim- Many people in MSP thought that was a good reason that the OSL route would be a good money-maker, but that was a big disappointment.
Made from jets!
 
Stretch 8
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:56 am

Who the hell would fly from Memphis to Paris?
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
DTWINTLFLYER
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:51 am

Well, connecting pax who come into MEM might fly to CDG...especially if they were continuing on to other cities in Europe. And vice versa (don't forget AF is a founding member of SkyTeam of which NW now belongs and that would add even more flyers). AF flies into CVG, and I would suspect just as many pax might connect through CVG as MEM.
 
flyibaby
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:02 am

Strech 8,
FEDEX would...lol.
 
bobnwa
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RE: NW New Hub To Europe

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:13 am

Stretch8,

The same kind of people who from Memphis to Amsterdam!!!

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