ConcordeBoy
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Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:29 am





Good stuff  Big thumbs up




EVERETT, Wash., Dec. 16, 2004 -- The three main sections of the first Boeing [NYSE:BA] 777-200LR (Longer Range), which will be the world's longest-range commercial airplane, were recently joined at the company's Everett, Wash. plant. The 777-200LR can carry 301 passengers up to 9,420 nautical miles (17,446 kilometers), making possible routes such as London-Sydney and New York-Singapore with a full passenger load. The first 777-200LR will be unveiled in February and begin flight-testing in March. First delivery is scheduled for the first quarter of 2006. Pakistan International Airlines and EVA Air are the airplane's first customers.

...continue reading at Boeing's website
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Sjoerd
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:51 am

Pakistan International Airlines and EVA Air are the airplane's first customers.

First and only customers...
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
rlwynn
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:09 am

Where does Pakistan need to fly 17,00km to.
I can drive faster than you
 
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ODwyerPW
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:14 am

Orders are scant. However, this plane lays the foundation for the 777 Freighter program.
learning never stops.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:23 am

"First and only customers..."............for now......wait until the performance comes out ( knowing how conservative Boeing is with their numbers, it will probably be better than given,), we will then see a plethora of orders, and I wouldn't be surprise to see SQ ring up a nice order along with some other air carriers.....ie. ANA, etc.

Jac777
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AAplatnumflier
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:24 am

Wait until they start flying this baby and showing off what it can really do. I would expect to see orders from American based Airlines within a few years assuming the economy keeps growing. I would have to say AA and UA aquire it to fly LAX-SYD. Just my personal opinion though.
 
A340600
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:28 am

OMG i'm so excited. Its another 777 in my opinion, excuse me whilst I fall asleep! It's hardly causing a stir with orders is it, just looks the same, almost more exciting than the A350 Laugh out loud

Sam Laugh out loud

[Edited 2004-12-17 01:29:58]
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
mdl21483
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:30 am

PIA may make the IAH-KRH flights non-stop* with these birds- they sure do have enough range to try!

Aren't orders usually scant for variants initially? I would think that most potential customers want to see if the plane would be worth it in today's economy by watching the success/loss of others before putting themselves into such a situation. Aviation isn't about pioneering as much as it used to be back in the day, now its whether or not your product is strong enough to survive.
From the shores of the sea we have come afar, we have risen high, among the stars.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:32 am

Since AA does not fly to SYD why would they need a plane that can fly that route?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:34 am

I would have to say AA and UA aquire it to fly LAX-SYD. Just my personal opinion though.

The 772ER can already accomplish this if they wanted to.

777-200ER max range - 7,720 nm
747-400ER max range - 7,670 nm (already doing LAX-SYD)

Nowthen, DFW-SYD? Definitely capable.
ORD-SYD, with a premium seating arrangement, possibly.
But both could do the route with a greater payload though.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:36 am

OMG i'm so excited. Its another 777 in my opinion, excuse me whilst I fall asleep! It's hardly causing a stir with orders is it, just looks the same, almost more exciting than the A350

Hey! Give us "niche" fans a break, will ya?!?!?  Laugh out loud
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:41 am

hardly causing a stir with orders is it

That's the nature of the C-market in general.

In case you haven't noticed; the A345 (whose major orders were placed when it was the only C-market aircraft available) has not been able to secure any more customers than has the 772LR, in the nearly half decade since the twinjet was launched.



777-200ER max range - 7,720 nm

7760nm
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whitehatter
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:45 am

Not in the least bit interested in it.

Now the freighter version...let's see that baby built and flying! The long range/high payload freighter is going to be the real moneymaker for Boeing if the MD-11 customer sector goes for it. There is ten times the potential (or more) in the freight sector for this aircraft.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
A340600
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:46 am

I never said anything about the A345, but at least it looks different. I said the A350, I can see neither the A345 or B777LR being a big success,

Sam
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:05 am

777-200ER max range - 7,720 nm

7760nm


According to Boeing, we're both wrong.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/777technical.html

7,730 nm.

Nya, nya, nya, nya nyaaaaaa.

[Edited 2004-12-17 02:07:53]
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:09 am

I never said anything about the A345, but at least it looks different.

To no significant degree...

...the only amateurs who could effectively differentiate the A345 from the A346 (or in most cases, from anything with 4 engines and no hump)... are industry-obsessed spotters and enthusiasts. Deal.




can see neither the A345 or B777LR being a big success,

Perhaps. Though, worth noting that the 772LR has two trump cards, one of which the A345 cannot replicate.

1) it can be utilized as an (expensive!) B-market aircraft offering more range/payload and less weight than the A345. This is particularly significant seeing as Boeing may very well have to become price competitve with the 772ER should Airbus succeed in producing a stretched A350-- allowing detanked 772LRs to compete near the higher end of that derivative's mission profile.

2) it can be offered as both pax or freighter
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:13 am

The 772ER can already accomplish this if they wanted to.

United's can't. AA probably wouldn't be able to get a decent routing to make it possible.

The 772LR's 330 minute ETOPS, assuming cleared for South Pacific operations, would be the best way to do it.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:14 am

7,730 nm

Oh yeah... Iknewthat!  Innocent
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atmx2000
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:27 am

Well the entire purpose of the 777NG is to carry more weight further. You can either carry more money making passengers or cargo or more money burning fuel that allows you to travel further. Since airlines want to make money, the sweet spot for the 777NG's seems to be 773ER market. If Boeing could sell a the detanked 772LR for a bit less, airlines might buy it instead of the 772ER for enhanced cargo capacity and because it will probably have a higher resale value for freighter conversions.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
WF2BNN
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:28 am

What about NYC-SYD nonstop? That's only 8636 nm.

WF2BNN
What goes up, must come down.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:31 am

"PIA may make the IAH-KRH flights non-stop* with these birds- they sure do have enough range to try!"

you mean IAH-KHI.....and they wouldn't need to try, accordingly, it will be able to do with without too much of a problem (according to Boeings numbers), in fact, as I previously stated, if the numbers come out as expected, I think this could potentially be big for Boeing..
"Up the Irons!"
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:28 pm

If Boeing could sell a the detanked 772LR for a bit less, airlines might buy it instead of the 772ER

At this point, they have little incentive to.

The 772ER (its relatively high production costs aside) still commands a premium over its competitor, and nothing about that's going to change any time soon. However, with impending models such as the proposed A350 on the way-- the 772ER may lose that advantage and thus require a detanked 772LR to compete on the higher end of that aircraft's former mission profile.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:47 pm

Record breaking?

Expect this bird to break the 777-200ER's speed and distance record on it's delivery flight or in testing.

If Boeing could sell a the detanked 772LR for a bit less, airlines might buy it instead of the 772ER

37,500lbs of fuel in three aft cargo hold tanks are optional and airlines can already choose to buy them or not. Even without the optional additional fuel tankage the performance is such that it could carry the same payload, (actually a tiny bit more), than SQ's A340-500's average now SIN-EWR-SIN. That projected performance will most likely not only be validated but extended by 1-2%.

However, with impending models such as the proposed A350 on the way-- the 772ER may lose that advantage and thus require a detanked 772LR to compete on the higher end of that aircraft's former mission profile.

Given the proposed, or rumored, technology to be included in the A350 it's unlikely that the A350 will be able to provide significant or any operational cost savings at the payloads and longest ranges operated by the B market 777-200. 7E7-9 will have range beyond the A340-200 carrying a similar payload, with a 106,000lb lighter MTOW (that 106,000lb weight saving breaks down to about 35/65 % reduced OEW/reduced fuel respectively). I don't see Airbus being able to shave 100,000lbs+ off the MTOW of 772ER, including possibly 40-50,000lbs or more off the 772ER OEW and still be able to pull 70-100,000lb payloads over the poles as the Boeing does now on a routine basis. There is just not that kind of fuel/weight savings that can be gained with the technology. The B market 777 position is pretty safe for the forseeable future in my analysis, only to possibly be overtaken by its C market sibling.

Perhaps. Though, worth noting that the 772LR has two trump cards, one of which the A345 cannot replicate.

1) it can be utilized as an (expensive!) B-market aircraft offering more range/payload and less weight than the A345...

2) it can be offered as both pax or freighter


Exactly!


The biggest plus of the passenger C market 777-200 is that it will be able to carry full revenue payloads over greater ranges than the B market 772 and significantly higher payloads on the same routes that competitive aircraft now operate.

There are some 6,000-7,000nm Westbound routes flown by B market 777-200's that could more than triple the payload available for cargo if flown by C market 777-200's. That would represent a very substantial increase in revenue potential, like 15-20% increases in total revenues per segment.

The demonstration of the aircraft's projected performance will bring to light these advantages on a larger stage and orders will follow accordingly.

-widebodyphotog





If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:20 pm

37,500lbs of fuel in three aft cargo hold tanks are optional and airlines can already choose to buy them or not.

I was thinking more along the lines of a decrease in price. But I guess Boeing can wait to see whether airlines bite after the plane takes flight before doing anything of the sort.

However, with impending models such as the proposed A350 on the way-- the 772ER may lose that advantage and thus require a detanked 772LR to compete on the higher end of that aircraft's former mission profile.

I think Airbus is doing Boeing a favor by announcing the aircraft so far in advance of entry into service. They are giving Boeing plenty of time to plan a response.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
Adria
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:34 pm


"In case you haven't noticed; the A345 (whose major orders were placed when it was the only C-market aircraft available) has not been able to secure any more customers than has the 772LR, in the nearly half decade since the twinjet was launched.".......yes you can say this to make you feel better but this doesn't change the fact that there are more orders for the A345



 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:17 pm

777-200ER max range - 7,720 nm

7760nm

According to Boeing, we're both wrong.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/777technical.html

7,730 nm.

Nya, nya, nya, nya nyaaaaaa.

7,730 nm

Oh yeah... Iknewthat!


Yea, but I was closer! I win! I win!!!

 Laugh out loud
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
emrecan
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:09 am

I hope Turkish Airlines will also buy this A/C as they are planning to fly to Sydney..
 
dairbus
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:25 am

There is a lot of discussion about B and C market aircraft. Can anyone tell me where these standards come from and were I can look them up?
"I love mankind. It's people I can't stand." - Charles Shultz
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:44 am

There is a lot of discussion about B and C market aircraft. Can anyone tell me where these standards come from and were I can look them up?

They are a Boeing classification system devised when the Working Together group set about to define the market that the 767-X should fill. This aircraft evolved into the 777, but the customers agreed that three distinct markets were necessary for the new aircraft. Of course, this all happened in the late-80s, but it is still applicable-

A Market- 5500 nm, 350 passengers
B Market- 7000 nm, 300 passengers
C Market- 8500 nm, 250 passengers

The original plan was for the 777-200 to fulfill the A-market category, an increased weight version would fulfill the B-market category, while a shrunk 777-100 would fulfill the C-market category. Obviously not everything went as planned. Engines in the +100K lbf category allowed for heavier and heavier 777s, so a shrink (which would have atrocious seat/mile cost) is not necessary

The current 777 versions fulfill the following markets-

A Market- 777-200, 777-300
B Market- 777-200ER, 777-300ER
C Market- 777-200LR
 
airplane
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:44 am

Good stuff,
I hope Continental gets it so it can go to HKG with full payload.

JP
The sky´s the limit
 
dairbus
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:48 am

Thanks for the info DfwRevolution. I appreciate it.

DAirbus
"I love mankind. It's people I can't stand." - Charles Shultz
 
Thrust
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:48 am

What are the chances Rolls Royce and Pratt and Whitney will try to develop engines suitable for the 772LR? I would imagine Boeing is trying to get them to do it so as to attract more customers? Are the two engine manufacturers even trying to develop engines right now for the 772LR?
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:51 am

Boeing has decided to have only GE supply the engines for the 772LR and the 773ER. There sin't (nor will be) an option for RR or PW engines. That's what Boeing has decided.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:09 am

What are the chances Rolls Royce and Pratt and Whitney will try to develop engines suitable for the 772LR?

Zero... Boeing is contractually bound to offer *only* the GE90-115 on the 772LR/773ER. By the exact terms of the agreement, any engine can power the 777 through a MTOW of 700,000 lbs which would allow some growth over the existing 772ER. But past the 700k limit, GE90 engines are the only ones allowed.

Just FYI, but the current MTOWs for the 777 are-

772A- 545,000 lbs
772ER- 656,000 lbs
773A- 660,000 lbs
(contractual limit of 700k)
772LR- 766,000 lbs
773ER- 775,000 lbs

Refer to page 6 of this document to get a better idea of the contract-
http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/Aircraft/777X-6.html

Are the two engine manufacturers even trying to develop engines right now for the 772LR?

Nope... RR tried to use swept fan blades to greatly increase airflow through the engine, but the reinforced core of the GE90 really made it the most suitable engine anyway....

[Edited 2004-12-17 18:12:13]
 
Leej
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:18 am

London to Sydney with a full passenger load????

Isn't LHR-SYD about 10,500 miles?

Leej
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:24 am

Boeing has decided to have only GE supply the engines for the 772LR and the 773ER. There sin't (nor will be) an option for RR or PW engines. That's what Boeing has decided.

GE decided that it did not want to compete in the C market due to the limited number of potential airframe sales. GE was the technology leader in the Ultra-high-thrust engine sector and used that leverage to get Boeing to grant them exclusivity on 777's with MTOW beyond 700,000lbs. The situation was that PW had no chance to get on C market aircraft because the PW4000 has no more growth capability left in it, and Rolls-Royce, while having the capabilty to produce a new derivative Trent, would be too far behind with it's development to meet the EIS date.

I'm remebering back to the discussion of powerplants for C market 777's. There was talk of things like "thrusting APU's" because it was believed that no one had the capability to produce the required thrust from the two engines. It all seems rather funny now...

GE intended from the inception of GE90 that it would grow to well beyond 100,000lbt and was the most prepared for the advent of C market derivatives. Unless Boeing decides to replace the 777 with another airframe, all current and future C market 777's will be GE powered.

-WIDEBODYPHOTOG
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:31 am

London to Sydney with a full passenger load????

Yes.... LHR-SYD should be possible with the 772LR, but the return trip, SYD-LHR would not be profitable. The west-bound flight must fight heavy winds, which degrades performance.

Isn't LHR-SYD about 10,500 miles?

Off the top of my head... it's roughly 9,100 nautical miles. But reserve fuel for several hundred nm is necessary...
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:06 am

hey,


Will the 777LR have blended winglets???

And what routes will Eva use this bird on??

I think it will look great in Eva Airs new livery.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gabe Pfeiffer



also still waiting for those 767s to be painted.
No Vueling No Party
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:08 am

Anyone know when the 772LR will be rolled out and will it be painted in the new "blue wavy" c/s?
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:10 am

Will the 777LR have blended winglets???

the 777LR's winglets will look like those on the 773ER and 764ER. Raked wingtips.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
A340600
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:15 am

Zero... Boeing is contractually bound to offer *only* the GE90-115 on the 772LR/773ER

It's going to to make al those RR customers buy it even more Insane

Sam Laugh out loud
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:21 am

It's going to to make al those RR customers buy it even more

Yeah... like Singapore Airlines? Or perhaps British Airways? The only Rolls Royce customer who put up a serious fight was American Airlines, and it doesn't appear that they have the funds or need for the 772LR anyway.
 
aa777jr
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:29 am

AA probably wouldn't be able to get a decent routing to make it possible.

Why wouldn't AA be able to get a decent route on a DFW-SYD flight?

It was stated above that AA could make that flight with their current setup 772. Can anyone confirm this?

Would AA consider this with their new terminal at DFW? I know AA codeshares a flight with QF out of LAX. Would there be a market for a DFW-SYD flight?

Thanks,
AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
irishpower
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:31 am

Let's fathom a guess to the next 5 airlines that will buy the 777-200LR and how many they will order.

I've seen people say SQ,BA,ANA,AA (maybe)??

Who else?

 
chiawei
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:59 am

As far as US goes, this is probably how BR will use its new 777

772LR will be used on route to SFO, SEA, EWR
773ER will be used on route to LAX, SFO

The 767 will not be painted in new color as they are being slowly disposed of in favor of A330.
 
AA777
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:31 am

the 772ER can already accomplish this if they wanted to.

777-200ER max range - 7,720 nm
747-400ER max range - 7,670 nm (already doing LAX-SYD)


Yes, but can the 777-200ER get ETOPs approval to fly that route? I am not sure.... my guess is no. If they could've, AA would probably have TRIED to opened up routes a while back....

-AA777
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:52 am

Yes, but can the 777-200ER get ETOPs approval to fly that route? I am not sure.... my guess is no. If they could've, AA would probably have TRIED to opened up routes a while back....

A 777-200ER could operate that route with ETOPS 180 or ETOPS 207 with enough flexibility to be viable. It looks as though AA did not want to invest the time and fleet mangement resources that it takes to get the ETOPS route approval. Without planning far down the road from EIS with a particular aircraft/airline, even ETOPS 180 is very difficult to acheive and maintain once you have significant numbers of aircraft. At this point it's just too late to do without diverting substantial resources of crew and material, the cost of which will take quite a while to recoup.

-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:01 am

Yes, but can the 777-200ER get ETOPs approval to fly that route? I am not sure.... my guess is no. If they could've, AA would probably have TRIED to opened up routes a while back....

This map illustrates a basic outline of the ETOPS-180 zones, shading indicates where no suitable diversion point exist. This obviously isn't what they navigate by, but it shows that ETOPS isn't a significant issue on said routing-

ok... map isnt posting, but just look for yourself-
http://gc.kls2.com/

It looks as though AA did not want to invest the time and fleet mangement resources that it takes to get the ETOPS route approval.

AA's 777-200ER fleet is ETOPS 180 certified..... (maybe even 207?)
 
ConcordeBoy
Topic Author
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RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:34 am

What are the chances Rolls Royce and Pratt and Whitney will try to develop engines suitable for the 772LR?

The same they were the last fifty times you asked this retarded question:
NONE!




A 777-200ER could operate that route with ETOPS 180 or ETOPS 207

Not 207 for a USA carrier on that routing.... not alloted for the S.Pacific.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Boeing: First 772LR Nearing Completion!

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:38 am

Not 207 for a USA carrier on that routing.... not alloted for the S.Pacific.

Where is ETOPS 207 allowed? Polar and North pacific?

BTW- how do you change fonts, I've been tryin to figure that one out for a while now?