jacobin777
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Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:00 pm

thats a bit ambitions....talk about record orders being needed....I wonder how large that order from China is going to be..i would say about 65-75


http://asia.news.yahoo.com/041217/3/1tb0u.html
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jacobin777
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:08 pm

"Boeing is finalizing sales of 200 7E7s to Asian, Middle Eastern, European and North American carriers, he said in a teleconference with Asian journalists."

http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt.jsp?cat=USMARKET&src=704&feed=dji§ion=news&news_id=dji-00001020041217&date=20041217&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw

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Boeing7E7
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:48 pm

It's all about the paperwork now. My guess is the A350 as projected is not what they were expecting/looking for and whoever is looking at the 7E7 is now ready to sign. By the end of the year, maybe. Perhaps in January. At this point it's irrelivant. 200 order before first flight for an aircraft of this size ain't too shabby.
 
 
Rj111
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:44 pm

They'll never sort out 148 order sorted in 14 days. They've alread said they arent concerned with missing the target, so saying this again is "shot for nothing", so to speak.
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:52 pm

You must be a real believer to eat this..
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na
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-e

Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:17 pm

Christmas is coming. Lots of presents to be expected. At least if you still believe in Santa Claus...

But I´m with Boeing here, hoping the ambitious 7E7 project will be a success. Airbus´ A350 at least looks like a lame duck in comparison.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:53 pm

As much as I would love to see that 200 plane order, I just don't see it possible even if they had all of these guys lined up to order these planes. Wouldn't the news leak out on this board if Boeing had that many customers lined up?

I don't know why they are in such a hurry to get 200 orders so quick. The plane isn't going to fly until 2008, they have plenty of time. By then the airline troubles in America should be done and you can pretty much guarantee a couple of the U.S. big six airlines would place 50+ plane orders to replace their 767 fleets.

Has anyone figured out the breakeven amounts for this plane yet?
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:05 pm

Break even is 580 units at current prices, but that will fall with incrimental price increases. The original was 400 units, but the discounts are really good if you're in the market. Not one has sold for over $90M and the -9 is being offered at $97 with discounts. The only option is after market seats, center bins in First and Business, and entertainment systems. Everything else is completely standard, and loaded I might add.

Target profit per unit was set for $15 million a copy, but there running between $7 and $10 million. The $120 million price is a generic tag added to the press releases. They won't hit that price until the first production aircraft is delivered.
 
col
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:08 pm

Why oh why, do they keep blarting out information when they don't need to. If they get 200 orders by year end, it would say more to build confidence, than this yes we can, no we can't, it will be next year, it doesn't matter when it happens.

They are unhappy about loosing Air Asia, but hey we do have 88% of LCC in USA. Randy, look at the frigging globe, Airbus are obviously offering the right product at the right price. When is this going to get addressed!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:10 pm

They must have the orders already because I doubt they'ed make such a claim so late in the year.
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Ken777
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:32 am

I believe that the orders are pretty well done deals. B would be very quiet if they weren't.

I would not be surprised for these airlines, knowing how much B wants 200 by Dec 31st, going after that last bit of sugar to sweeten the deal just a little bit more. Lots of pressure on both sides as the pressure ends on Dec 31st for both sides.

A lot of people working long hours to finish the deals and the last week of December may be hot.

the interesting comment for me was the inclusion of North America in B's statement. Who?
 
boeingbus
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-e

Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:39 am

who? Primarus for one - has MOU for 20 frames... and I wouldnt be surprised at all if CO, NW, and AA are in there trying to get new aircraft to aid their international exansion.
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NYC777
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:40 am

the interesting comment for me was the inclusion of North America in B's statement. Who?

Maybe Primaris (signing the final firm contract) but might also be NW.

I totally agree, with two weeks to go and the Xmas holiday coming up, why would anyone shoot their mouths off about 200 orders if they weren't very VERY close to getting it done.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:56 am

My money is on Continental. Northwest is a possibility, but we'll see...
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NYC777
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:10 am

Naw, I don't think it's Continental. They said they would love to buy it but the y don't have the money for it at this point. Though I would discount an order from them in the next 2-3 years. They need to recover and they're in a better position compared to the other legacies.

[Edited 2004-12-17 19:13:09]
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Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:29 am

I suppose it's possible, though not probable, if they are talking about 200 total announced commitments, not firm orders. After all, they only need a few airlines who have placed significant desposits to step forward and publically commit. It would also lower the number they need from 148 to 118, if we are talking commitments and not orders. There's no way they will have 200 total firm orders by Jan. 1, afterall, Boeing only recently stated they wouldn't get this until Feb.


"You must be a real believer to eat this.."

Ah, why not? I mean, some people on this board believe that AirAsia paid $62.5 million for each of their 40 A320's, when the actual price was closer to $30 million. Just goes to show that anyone can believe anything based on their own particular bias.


"Wouldn't the news leak out on this board if Boeing had that many customers lined up?"

It all depends on who's ready to publically commit. The Seattle Times reported a few months ago that they had seen the evidence that Boeing had deposits down from 16 different airlines for 248 7E7's. That includes those already announced. So the possibilty exists, though again, these won't be firm orders by the end of the year.

I believe when he mentioned North America, he was talking about the confirmation of Primaris, as well as possibly either or both of the major leasors (ILFC and GECAS).

Regards,

Hamlet69
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daedaeg
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:31 am

They'll never sort out 148 order sorted in 14 days. They've alread said they arent concerned with missing the target, so saying this again is "shot for nothing", so to speak.

I hope you dont believe that this finalization will only occur over the last 14 days.This process has been ongoing for months. Mr. Baseler has a lot riding on this, considering Boeing's top salesman was recently ousted. If he believes that the orders can be completed by year's end, then I have no reason not to believe him. However if you read the article carefully he says they are going to TRY to have 200 orders by the end of the year. That leaves room for if things dont go according to plan. We'll see what happens.
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Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:58 am

BTW - according to one report today, Blue Panorama has now signed a firm order for their 4 7E7-8's, with delivery accelerated to Dec. 2008, instead of Feb. 2009.

Can anyone confirm?

Regards,

Hamlet69
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NYC777
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:08 am

Where did you hear/read this?
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Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:16 am

The Orders forum. As I said, I am still waiting on confirmation, so take it for the moment with a grain of salt.

Regards,

Hamlet69
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NYC777
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:23 am

Ok thanks, where is the Order Forum?
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planemaker
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:13 am

BTW - according to one report today, Blue Panorama has now signed a firm order for their 4 7E7-8's, with delivery accelerated to Dec. 2008, instead of Feb. 2009.

FI reported that Blue Panorama signed a firm contract in Rome today. Boeing values the deal at $500 million based on catalogue prices ($125-million each 7E7) and have yet to chose an engine supplier.

They will configure the 7E7 with a 299-seat layout and will begin taking delivery of the 7E7s from February 2009.

It takes the number of firmly-ordered 7E7s to 56.
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teahan
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:15 am

@NYC777:

http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/orders

The archive is most interesting.
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glideslope
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:16 am


Na Wrote:

"Christmas is coming. Lots of presents to be expected. At least if you still believe in Santa Claus...

But I'm with Boeing here, hoping the ambitious 7E7 project will be a success. Airbus A350 at least looks like a lame duck in comparison."


I commend you on your honesty. That was not an easy admission on this site considering your national origin.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:40 am

**Break even is 580 units at current prices, but that will fall with incrimental price increases. The original was 400 units, but the discounts are really good if you're in the market.**


I am surprised that the break even point is that high. I think the A380 is only about 350.
 
gaut
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:41 am

If Boeing still claims they will sell 200 B7E7 by year end you can be sure they will do it. (or they are really stupid)

I'm sure the B7E7 will be a great aircraft and will sell well. But it's a very risky program because of all this new electrical technology replacing mechanical one.

It's funny because Boeing and American people said that Airbus built dangerous 'plastic & electronic' aircrafts and now Boeing develop the 7E7 with a lot of composite and electronic  Big grin Only stupid guys never change their mind....

I wish Boeing good luck.

Regards

Gaut
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aerlingus330
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:36 am

Airbus is bound to change the design of the A350, and i think it could and will be a worthy competitor to the 7E7...It will be a good aircraft war, but let the Best Company win!...(no A v B intended)

regards
aerlingus330
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:05 am

I am surprised that the break even point is that high. I think the A380 is only about 350.

It's because of the heavy discounting right now. This bird is a steal at $90 million and whatever airline said it was too "Capital Intensive" for them was full of crap. If they were selling at $125M it would be $45 million a copy profit, which would obviously drop the break even point. Even at $125M these would be a steal. List price range is identical to the 767-300.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:07 pm

"I'm sure the B7E7 will be a great aircraft and will sell well. But it's a very risky program because of all this new electrical technology replacing mechanical one. "

actually, Boeing has been using the core technology for years, if not decades with their fighter jets, so I don't think they will have too much of a problem integrating it into the consumer avaiation market........

there have been reports that the total development costs of the T7 was $14billion+, and that was 15 years ago before the dollar being gutted out (as it is right now), and only $5billion for the 7E7, with lots of that money being shelled out by Japanese companies, but the mere fact its only $5 billion might mean that Boeing didn't have to put out as much R&D money in the first place since the R&D had already been done.....

of course, its all just speculation on my part..
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-e

Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:32 pm

there have been reports that the total development costs of the T7 was $14billion+, and that was 15 years ago before the dollar being gutted out (as it is right now), and only $5billion for the 7E7, with lots of that money being shelled out by Japanese companies

$5 billion being Boeing's investment in the 7E7. Total project costs are closer to $6-7 billion USD, once you factor in the subcontractors. Calling them all the "Japanese companies" is a bit disingenous given that Vought/Alenia have just as much of a stake as Kawasaki/Mitsubishi do.

If Boeing still claims they will sell 200 B7E7 by year end you can be sure they will do it. (or they are really stupid)

Well, if I'm not mistake, the head of sales who made the claim was recently fired  Big grin

It's funny because Boeing and American people said that Airbus built dangerous 'plastic & electronic' aircrafts and now Boeing develop the 7E7 with a lot of composite and electronic

And it was Airbus who advocated against the proliferation of long-haul twins... but like you said... consistency is for wimps. That being said, Boeing criticized Airbus early computerized aircraft, as they have yet to build an all-electric aircraft.....
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:05 pm

Jacobin777,

I'm sorry, but your numbers are pretty far off. Total program costs for the 777 were approximately $8 billion, plus roughly another $1.5 billion for site improvements between the various manufacturing facilities, with the vast majority of that going to Everett. Boeing's share of the 7E7 project has been estimated at @ $6.4 billion, with their numerous suppliers picking up the rest. Though I agree with you that some of the technology has been tested elsewhere, the vast majority of what Boeing and its partners is trying to do is pioneering in the scale they are attempting.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-end

Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:26 pm

there have been reports that the total development costs of the T7 was $14billion+, and that was 15 years ago before the dollar being gutted out (as it is right now),
The dollar is not to far away from where it when the 777 program started and when the 777 went into service.


Year DEM FRF GBP JPY EUR
1988 1.585 5.363 0.5327 122.7
1989 1.764 6.026 0.5487 123.6
1990 1.709 5.835 0.6208 146.3
1991 1.49 5.075 0.5148 134.5
1992 1.528 5.217 0.5352 124.5
1993 1.637 5.593 0.6658 125.4
1994 1.742 5.928 0.6774 112.5
1995 1.554 5.359 0.6394 100.5
1996 1.435 4.901 0.6423 103.9
1997 1.541 5.195 0.5929 115.5
1998 1.789 5.993 0.5929 130.1
1999 1.655 5.551 0.6027 111.9 0.8462
2000 1.897 6.362 0.6192 102.1 0.9944
2001 2.067 6.931 0.6675 114.8 1.0566
2002 2.165 7.261 0.6919 132 1.1069
2003 1.865 6.254 0.6213 118.7 0.9534
2004 1.551 5.2 0.5613 107.5 0.7928



[Edited 2004-12-18 09:31:10]
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Still Aims For 200 7E7 Orders By Year-e

Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:23 pm

While I don't expect another 144 orders to close by the end of the year, some airlines may prefer to close a deal in the current fiscal year. If the Chinese planned to close the deal before the end of the year, they will likely do so. I would not be surprised to see significant orders come in before the year is over.