JoFMO
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Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:12 am

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh31451_2004-12-17_14-13-21_l17362248_newsml

What do you guys think about it?

I don't see any reason why a mojority nigerian owned airline should be banned from the USA. And I don't see what the anticompetitive Heathrow restrictions has to do with Nigeria.
To me it looks the other way around. The US wants to protect CO on its new route LOS.
 
Leskova
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:20 am

The US might want to protect CO on it's route to LOS - but, after all, the UK is essentially trying to protect BA (and VS) by means of the Bermuda II treaty that bars most US carriers from entering LHR...

While I don't see the barring of VS Nigeria as the right method in trying to get the UK to agree to open up LHR - after all, even though they are 49% owned by Branson/Virgin, that still makes them 51%, or majority, owned by Nigerians - I do understand the US's frustration...

... but I doubt that this measure will improve anything.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:32 am

Well, perhaps the Nigerian government could also ban CO from starting the route as well. I do not see why the US gov't should ban VS Nigeria either, but capitalism seems to only work when it is to someones benefit
 
JoFMO
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:38 am

I understand their frustration too, but it is unfair to let the Nigerians feel the pressure.

I really don't see that blocking Virgin Nigeria from the US should change Virgin Atlantics support to Bermuda II. Their benefits from limited competition in LHR are much bigger than what they loose from not being allowed between LOS-USA.
Why does the USA on the other hand allow Vigin to set up a low-cost carrier in the USA. That harms American companies much more than one or two daily flights between Africa and the US.

If the USA really want to lift Bermuda II, they should come to the table and negotiate a far reaching open sky agreement with the European Union. As long as they don't react more progressively in this way, I can't take their whining about Bermuda II seriously.
 
planemannyc
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:44 am

It seems a bit protectionist. The Bermuda II treaty was for direct flights between UK and the US. I don't see any British (or Nigerian) carrier trying to have flights between the UK and US with stops in Nigeria. If Nigeria allows 49% of its airlines to be owned by foreign investors, it's Nigeria's choice (of course, we all know that US does not allow this for its airlines). I guess all will fall back on the US-Nigeria treaty to see if their are clauses that states that airlines gaining access on the route must be 100% owned by Nigerian or US interests. From the outside, it looks like CO trying to gain a monopoly in a lucrative market by pressuring US diplomats. I for one always think that competition is good especially if the market is on a level playing field -- and in my opinion, 51% of Nigerian holdings means that V-Nigeria is a Nigerian company, and that it will cater to mostly Nigerians. So my gut reaction is that V-Nigeria should be allowed to fly between Lagos and the US. It will be best for consumers.

My $0.02

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc
 
Leskova
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:45 am

Why does the USA on the other hand allow Vigin to set up a low-cost carrier in the USA. That harms American companies much more than one or two daily flights between Africa and the US.

Because, based on the laws and codes of the United States of America, the government has no basis on which they could prevent Virgin America from starting up: they've complied with all necessary regulations and rules, so the FAA, DOT, government or whoever must give the final OK simply has no choice but to say yes.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
bobnwa
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:56 am

JoFMO,

I believe the US is ready to start an open sky agreement with the EU when the EU counties are ready to act as one in the United Nations etc. You can't just be a cohessive group when it suits your aims.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:01 am

Hey BA and Virgin don't want to share LHR fine. It's in their interest to do so. Don't expect any favors for a Virgin owned airline simply because the have some paperworked filled out in Nigeria that shows them to be a Nigerian company.
 
Leskova
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:08 am

Padcrasher, no-one's expecting favors, and VS didn't just simply "have some paperworked (sic) filled out in Nigeria that shows them to be a Nigerian company"...

Is it too much to ask that you stay with the facts when joining a discussion?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
padcrasher
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:21 am

The article states VS Nigeria is 49% Virgin owned 51% Nigerian "Institution" owned. Which is code word for oil money. Which I'm sure the British own a good part of that. Making it essence a British airline. Hoping to get past US regulators wishing to open up LHR. Why is it OK for the UK to guard it's airlines's interests but not the US? If you're concerned about the Nigerian air consumer let's help the LHR customer. It's so simple.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:31 am

Hey


I find it very unfare.

I remember that Nigerian Airways opperated to JFK, back when they where flying.

I find this especialy wierd since VS own half of the airline and that states has a good rep with VS.



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The 747 used was TF-ABA for the JFK route was leased from Air Atlanta and now opperate for Travel City Direct.

Now when was the last flight for Nigeria Airways?

I hope VS Nigeria gets to fly to the US
No Vueling No Party
 
Leskova
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:32 am

Padcrasher, I suspect that UA and AA probably won't be too interested in opening up LHR either... but, to be precise, we both actually agree on the LHR issue.

Nonetheless, the airline is technically 51% Nigerian owned - and it's not interested in opening up services from LHR to the US anyhow, but from Nigeria to the US... so, for all intents and purposes, this is a majority-Nigerian-owned airline wanting to start services from Nigeria to the US, something the US wants to prevent using the minority-owner side of the business as arguement... and that's where I'd say that the US is walking down a, to say the least, problematic path.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
padcrasher
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:44 am

Yes agree I'm for opens skies but Branson is no advocate of open markets. Why help him out?

Nice website you have. I lived in Mainz-Finthen and in Wiesbaden when I was in the military. Took some courses at the University of Frankfurt. Very fond of that area and the Germans. Lots of good memories.
 
flylondon
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:15 am

LHR should be opened up to all US carriers as soon as the US Congress passes a law preventing any US airline from having more slots at any one US airport than BA would have at LHR.

Try telling CO, DL or AA that they can only have 35% of slots of two runways at EWR, ATL or DFW respectively.

The sad situation is that there is currently not enough runway capacity at Heathrow for everyone who wants it. Why should US carriers be given preference for this limited capacity at the detriment of UK carriers? As soon as a new runway is built I'd be happy to see everyone at LHR - it would only reinforce its position a world hub.
 
jetblast
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:18 am

I don't think it would be right to ban Virgin Nigeria from the US because as far as I remember the US is on good terms with Nigeria! I would however think differently of an airline from an "enemy" country or a "dangerous" country such as North Korea (no offense).

Regards
JetBlast @ BWI  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Speedbird Concorde One
 
bobnwa
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:21 am

FlyLondon,

There is no slot control at EWR, DFW, or ATL for any carrier. Can't use them as an example. Same holds true for JFK, DTW, MSP, IAH, MIA etc.
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:36 am

Pad you lie when you state that SRb is not a fan of open skies. All of his mouthings show just the opposite.

And why is access to LHR always being trumpeted. As though it is some sort of panacea to what ails the US airlines. No amount of flying into LHR will help them.
 
elwood64151
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:14 am

And I don't see what the anticompetitive Heathrow restrictions has to do with Nigeria.

I think the article explained that: The UK-based Virgin Atlantic has been extremely vocal in keeping US airlines out of LHR, so this joint-venture is being blocked from having US landing rights.

I didn't say it was fair, right, or made sense. But it is an explanation.

Because, based on the laws and codes of the United States of America, the government has no basis on which they could prevent Virgin America from starting up: they've complied with all necessary regulations and rules, so the FAA, DOT, government or whoever must give the final OK simply has no choice but to say yes.

How little you understand our government system. The DOT can deny an operating certificate, even with our deregulation of the airlines. The reason Branson is being allowed to set-up Virgin America is that only 25% of the voting stock will be owned by him, according to US law. That means he'll own the majority of the company, but he won't have overwhelming control. Plus, it will provide jobs for American employees, so what does the DOT care?

The sad situation is that there is currently not enough runway capacity at Heathrow for everyone who wants it.

So what are Birmingham and Glasgow? Chopped liver?

There are 55 million people in the UK, and it's about the size of Illinois. There are multiple cities with over a million people and multiple airports serving those cities. Certainly they are not the most desirable points of entry/exit for every passenger, but neither are DFW, CLE, or PIT.

Like the US airlines, BA and VS may have to learn how to deal with multiple points of exit/entry to better suit their customer's needs.

Besides which, the UK could simply open up a certain limited number of slots for each airline, rather than having only two airlines operate routes.

As though it is some sort of panacea to what ails the US airlines. No amount of flying into LHR will help them.

I have to agree. Why aren't US airlines operating more extensively to Birmingham, Glasgow, etc?
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
Leskova
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:19 am

Elwood64151, are you saying that the relevant authorities could simply deny an airline the required certificates because they simply don't want that airline to operate, even though it complies with all relevant laws and codes?

Because otherwise, saying that my comment proves that I don't understand the US's doesn't make sense...


So what are Birmingham and Glasgow? Chopped liver?

No, they're not... but if I recall correctly, they're not covered by Bermuda II, so US airlines wanting to fly there very well could: they just don't want to.

Why? I guess only the airlines know that - but I guess it has something to do with them not expecting enough demand from those cities.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:39 am

Guys, guys, guys!

We all agree that the Virgin Group cannot possibly benefit in the UK-USA market as a result of the formation of Virgin Nigeria. As most of you have pointed out, this new airline is to operate between Nigeria and the US, and not between the UK and the US. I'm quite certain the US government is using this as a BARGAINING CHIP in its own negotiations with the UK government, to the detriment of the ripped-off, over-charged Nigerian traveler who have had to endure long connections through Europe to travel between the US and Nigeria.

PS: Padcrasher: Please get your facts straight. I would doubt, judging from your post, that you can name the capital of Nigeria or if you are aware/up to date on Nigeria's facts. The British don't 'partly' own the 'oil' money youre refering to in the 51% stake reserved for Nigerian institutional investors. Furthermore, the 51% is earmarked for a an Initial Public Offering (IPO) shortly after the airline is airborne early next year.



If there is a will, there is a way
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:40 am

Gregoire said the UK had repeatedly failed to open the London market to additional U.S. airlines, adding that Virgin Atlantic had been vocal in urging its home government to lock out American airlines.

When last I checked, the LON market was quite open to "additional US airlines", just not the LHR market. Big difference!



The sad situation is that there is currently not enough runway capacity at Heathrow for everyone who wants it. Why should US carriers be given preference for this limited capacity at the detriment of UK carriers?

...for the same reasons that the Air Kookamongas of the world always seem able to weasle out a few slots here and there at LHR-- while most USA carriers are barred from even attempting to do so.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
padcrasher
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:44 am

"The US Government objection to Virgin Atlantic, he explained, is hinged on the basis of information from representatives of Virgin Atlantic and representatives of the Nigerian Embassy in Washington who told the US Government in July that indeed Virgin Nigeria would be a company controlled by Virgin Atlantic."

Awe shucks, I thought is was little ol me who was the only one who knows whats going on...LOL. Yes some Americans know the UK is Nigeria's biggest trading partner and some know the banks, oil companies, and insurance companies have a large British interests. In the US when you have ownership restrictions you don't simply stop looking the first corporation at hand. You look into the ownership of the "institutional investors".





 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:38 am

I have to agree. Why aren't US airlines operating more extensively to Birmingham, Glasgow, etc?

This is a simpe question and it has a simple answer, there isn't a market big enough outside London. If the national carrier, BA cannot find a market outside London, with a sole MAN-JFK flight, what chance have US carriers of expanding from MAN, GLA and BHX?
In Arsene we trust!!
 
oliver18
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:47 pm

I think the issue raised by the US diplomat has no basis? What does LHR have to do with Virgin Nigeria.

LHR is a very restrictive airport everybody knows that.
I think the British airlines face a lot more competition of the Lon-USA market:
take a look at the facts
BRITISH CARRIERS (LON-USA)
1. BA
2. VS

USA CARRIERS
1. AA
2. UA
3. DL
4. NW
5. US
6. CO

If LHR was to open up do you think the ratios of 6:2 would be fair.

ok ok including bmi 6:3.

The fact is there is a lot more American carriers than their are British which is obvious considering the size of the USA. However looking at the situation from the British perspective I can see why the British aren't opening lhr too soon. It just wouldn't be in the interests of their carriers. Unfair but its our airport and our airlines. Right now the situation is fair its 50/50. Two carriers from your side and two carriers from my side.

It would be great for lhr to get more runways. But with the city so close and the surrounding towns. it just not gonna happen too soon. if ever. (this has always been a British problem. its called lack of forward thinking. eg. more people travel by air, airlines need expansion to compete with others european airlines. DO NOTHING ABOUT IT. Population is growing in the city and city requires more homes. DO NOTHING ABOUT IT. More people are driving and using the roads, journey times are forever increasing for all. DO NOTHING ABOUT IT (or ken livingstone idea (london's mayor). fiddle with the traffic lights so they are GREEN for 5 seconds and RED for 60. Then make roads narrower, build more bus lanes, put more empty buses on the road, congestion charge to get the poor people off the road.

Sorry about that. back to the aviation discussion. I think with CO recent intentions for nyc-los market. they are simply using this as an excuse. I suggest SRB sell his stake to a friend of his. pick any rich nigerian, change the name to nigeria airlines. then buy the stake back after nigeria airlines commence their flights to the us, then SRB should buy back his stake and then change the name to Virgin Nigeria.


 
ETStar
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:59 pm

I certainly hope CO will be banned from operating into LOS... the US has no right to meddle into other coutries' business. And it's not like VS is the one that is operating the LOS-US route: why are there no issues with the AF/KL groupe, or any other airline owned by some other airline for that matter? Is the US desperate enough on the LHR issue to take such step?
 
notdownnlocked
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:02 pm

Good for the US government to block this. As some have said LHR is a very restrictive airport everybody knows that. If it is so restricted then why does every Flybynight Express to Podunkk get landing slots there as was previously mentioned. Why can no other US carriers land there? Yes BA was at one time owned by the government and I think that even today the UK government has their hands in the airline industry with their overprorectionist laws still proctecting BA and to a lesser extent VS. Of course BA/VS and the UK are against open and fair competition and that is the bottom line. If CO is banned from LOS then let the LOS PAX fly through LHR on BA/VS the same they are doing today. The US is not here to be an open playground to all that wish to participate in its spoils. Need to go to Lagos or Kano or anywhere else: happy travels through Europe. Want a nonstop or a direct flight from Nigeria to the US do it on a US airline or a legitimate Nigerian carrier. I'm sure that when those responsible for introducing flights from Nigeria to the US can prove who, what and why there with a good reason the US government will be more than happy to oblige. Until then don't expect a puppet airline to be granted rights outright. Can anyone of you UK residents really and truthfully answer why any airline from almost any country can get slots at LHR yet US carriers cannot. I never want to hear again the lamest argument in that there is no runway space or gates. Of course there is its just that there is no space or gates for US carriers. As for the airports that are slot constricted and regulated in the US and off limits to UK carriers please tell me which ones are these.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:26 pm

As for the airports that are slot constricted and regulated in the US and off limits to UK carriers please tell me which ones are these

There really aren't that many anymore, though two intriguing examples are:

MSP-LON can only be opped by USA carriers (though interestingly enough, MSP is one of the 14 permanent LHR gateways; meaning that UA/AA can op there to LHR should either of them choose to go against NW, who would have to remain at LGW)

LON-LAS can only be run by a Bri'ish operator.... IINM, it was a tradeoff with PIT for US.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
atmx2000
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:35 pm

Can anyone tell me how many flights UA, AA, VS, and BA account for between LHR and the US? And how many other airlines stopover at LHR on their way to the US?
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
rtfm
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:58 pm

Slots are restricted at LHR; that's an undeniable fact. And US airlines can get extra slots at LHR if they wanted them, however under Bermuda II the only ones who are allowed to operate from LHR are UA & AA. I think that UA has recently sold/traded some slots at LHR (tho' would be open to someone who knows the facts on that better than me..).

Yes the UK govt does restrict access to LHR to US carriers but they don't do it for the sake of it. Their argument is that more US carriers can have access to LHR if the US govt gives something in return. Like increasing foreign ownership rules, doing away with the policy that says that US government employees must travel on US carriers and signing an open skies deal. The problem is that what the US govt puts forward as 'open skies' does not tally with what the UK (and other EU) govts consider to be open skies. So basically UK govt has a bargaining chip in the ongoing open skies negotiations and they aren't going to give it up cheaply to a rather lop-sided US govt view of what 'open skies' means for them (i.e. that US carriers get unrestricted access to Europe and LHR and European carriers get.....)
 
Leskova
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:13 pm

Notdownnlocked: As some have said LHR is a very restrictive airport everybody knows that. If it is so restricted then why does every Flybynight Express to Podunkk get landing slots there as was previously mentioned.

Perhaps by negotiating with carriers having slots there but not using them? And if BA, VS or whoever doesn't feel like competing with "Flybynigt Express to Podunkk", then they'll sell, lease or whatever this slot to that airline.


Why can no other US carriers land there?

Ever heard of Bermuda II? And, no, that was not unilaterally imposed by the UK, but was also signed by the US, so it's not just the UK's fault.

Of course BA/VS and the UK are against open and fair competition and that is the bottom line.

... then again, so is any company (and, yes, that includes airlines from the US) that has a large percentage of any profitable market: "open and fair competition" will, almost always, only reduce their market-share and profits, with benefits going mostly to the new entrants in that market.

If CO is banned from LOS then let the LOS PAX fly through LHR on BA/VS the same they are doing today.

What does BA have to do with this issue? This is only about VS and VS Nigeria - with VS Nigeria at some point perhaps wanting to offer a further choice between Nigeria and the US to travellers - something the US seems to be wanting to prevent, with CO the main beneficiary... yup, seems like "open and fair competition" to me...  Insane

The US is not here to be an open playground to all that wish to participate in its spoils.

Ah, ok - now I see your point: what you're saying is that the whole world must be unconditionally opened up to US airlines, but if an airline from the outside wants to fly to the US, they can forget about it? Yes, I can see that you're very much for "open and fair competition"...  Insane

Need to go to Lagos or Kano or anywhere else: happy travels through Europe. Want a nonstop or a direct flight from Nigeria to the US do it on a US airline or a legitimate Nigerian carrier.

The majority of VS Nigeria is Nigerian owned - VS Nigeria is a legitimate Nigerian carrier.

Can anyone of you UK residents really and truthfully answer why any airline from almost any country can get slots at LHR yet US carriers cannot.

Again - the reason is called Bermuda II treaty and it has signatures from the UK and the US below it...

I never want to hear again the lamest argument in that there is no runway space or gates.

It's not really that much of a lame arguement - it's the reality of LHR... but if US carriers were content with getting two or three flights a week, all departing at different times of the day on the respective days they operate, then I'm sure that something can be worked out as soon as that little issue of Bermuda II is solved...

As for the airports that are slot constricted and regulated in the US and off limits to UK carriers please tell me which ones are these.

Not because of slot restrictions - but otherwise UK carriers cannot open up services from LHR to any airport in the US they like: it either has to be one of the permanent gateways, or they have to drop one route they're currently flying to move that route to the new airport that they'd like to fly to...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
ACAfan
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:15 pm

OK, so Virgin Nigeria can't fly to the United States. Big hairy deal.

Who's gonna stop Virgin ATLANTIC from flying JFK-LOS?
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
Leskova
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:20 pm

ACAfan, I'd say that even if, and that's a very, very big if, the Nigerian government were to allow Virgin Atlantic to fly JFK-LOS, the US government would certainly not allow it: and, in that case, they'd be right.

Virgin Atlantic is an airline from the UK - not from Nigeria, not from the US... and I seriously doubt that the current bilateral between the US and Nigeria would permit a UK airline from operating the route...

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
foxiboy
Posts: 200
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:36 pm

Lets see we have BA,VS,BD flying from the uk to the us and we have AA,CO,DL,NW,US, and UA so there are more us carriers flying to the UK From LHR to the US have AA,UA and the UK have BA and VS fair split in my eyes now LGW the uk have BA,VS but the US have AA,CO,DL,NW,US unfair split then MAN there are BA,BD,AND VS the us have AA,DL,CO,US.
Now why should US carriers get more opertunity to fly from LHR than the uk carriers. Now lets say the UK said we want a fairer playing field so only 3 us airlines can operate to the uk and 3 from the uk meaning say AA could only op to LHR CO only to MAN and NW to LGW, from the UK BA from LHR VS from LGW and BMI from MAN, that is fair but hey that wont happen as the US carriers would throw all their toys out of the cot and cry. So yes its unfair if the US ban V NIGERIA,maybe the nigerians should ban Co from LOS.
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:59 pm

What does the number of US carriers have to do with anything? Most of them serve different markets. On the other hand there are almost five times more potential US passengers, and the few British airlines that fly transatlantic routes gain access to most of them through the existing agreement.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:04 pm

If the national carrier, BA cannot find a market outside London, with a sole MAN-JFK flight, what chance have US carriers of expanding from MAN, GLA and BHX?

Continental and US Airways for example have proved there is a market outside of London
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
airbusA346
Posts: 7284
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:04 pm

What does VS Nigeria's C/S look like, does any body know.

airbusA346  Smile  Big thumbs up
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
foxiboy
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RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:06 pm

It has everything to do with it as the US airlines want more access to LHR, and also tend to cry foul along with VS if they dont get they want,so if only certain carriers were allowed into the uk then it would make it morefair and the US carriers operating into the uk would get more of the passengers travelling than they do now as they are , not only competing against uk airlines but other us carriers.
 
AngelAirways
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 1999 3:55 am

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:37 pm

Oh how I long for the day when those bloody politicians will scrap Bermuda II and give everyone open skies.

The US decision is selfish, protectionist and unfair towards Nigerian travellers to the US, but the VS lobbying of the UK government is equally rotten.
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:16 pm

That would be terribly anti-competitive, since that would mean a few airlines would dominate the UK-US market, not to mention the market for international flights beyond the UK or beyond the US. Passengers would pay higher prices. Plus other US airlines would suffer if the airlines that are allowed to fly to the UK could use profits from the less competitive market to assualt other markets.

Anyway since you think number of airlines is important, I will suggest the number of airports is also important. Why not restrict British airlines to the same number of airports/cities as American airlines can fly to in the UK? That way we'll have the same number of airlines flying to the same number of cities as each other. Afterall, just as BA and VS don't want other American airlines flying to LHR, why would American airlines want BA flying to their airports.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
boo25
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:03 am

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:11 pm

Simple 6 US carriers versus 2 UK carriers doesn't equate.

Of course the UK government has to protect the interests of UK airlines - in the same way the US airlines are protected (anti-competitively) from going bankrupt, even some realistically have long been so.

LHR is packed to the seams, and to let more carriers in would be ridiculous.
With the strong competition already in place, needless to say overcapacity would soon figure too.

The USA is a huge country, and LHR offers a huge range of the best connections - the only way the Americans are ever going to get around that is to fly to one of the hubs stateside that connect to LHR.

If they are working/visiting London however, Gatwick is a great option, with the premium fast train service -Gatwick Express- getting them to central London in 30 minutes.

The Americans already dominate many markets, thats a fact, but LHR should always remain as it is.
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:43 pm

How is it anti-competitive to prevent airlines or any other company from liquidating? It increases competition by leaving unhealthy airlines in the market. Also the bankruptcy laws aren't aimed at protecting airlines from international competition; they are there to allow companies to reorganize.

Anyway I still don't see why 6 US carriers versus 2 UK carriers matters. They all have their own set of hubs just like the British carriers, except there is more cut throat competition in the US market. I'd be more worried if the US had 2 super carriers if I were a British airline.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
JoFMO
Topic Author
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:43 pm

I don't see what the number of carriers from UK vs. US has to do with this topic. There are also only two German carriers to the US, while 6 American. And it is the same from the Netherland, France and so on. But not the number of carriers is relevant, the market share it's all about. And Britsh carriers have more than half of the markte between UK and US. And from the most profitable British airport - LHR - British carriers have a far more favourable market share compared with their American counterparts.

Nigeria designated Virgin Niegeria as their new flag carrier, and 51% is locally owned. So as the Nigerian government I would be very upset if my airline is blocked from serving a route while I have to welcome a foreign carrier on the same route. As a Nigerian I would be ashamed if a foreign country treats me that way.
What do you think would China or India do if a foreign country says sorry, but we can't accept your carriers anymore?
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:43 pm

Boo25, so how does 3 or 4 cities in the UK (with a market reasonably big enough to support flights to the US) equate with 20 to 30 in the US?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
JoFMO
Topic Author
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:58 pm

It is alos worth noting, that with canceling Bermuda II not alo t would chance. The biggest profit would go to BMI. They are only one with already enough slots but without permission to serve LHR-US. All other non-permitted American carriers like CO, DL, NW, US would have a lot of problem to get slots for new LHR routes. Maybe Skyteam members could get some in exchange from their European partners.
So even without Bermuda II, BA would still be the dominant carrier from LHR to US.
 
EurostarVA
Posts: 1205
Joined: Thu May 16, 2002 12:24 am

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:01 am

JoFMO,

I fully agree with you and hope that this matter is resolved when Sir Richard Branson and Nigerian government officials arrive in the US for talks (on Virgin Nigeria and Virgin America).

If there is a will, there is a way
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:29 am

This is ridiculous.

CX is owned by a British conglomerate, yet CX can serve the US nonstop from HKG. You can't have it one way but not another.

Our disagreement is with business practices at London's Heathrow. It has nothing to do with Richard Branson or his operations in other countries unrelated to that.

Nigeria should yank CO's EWR-LOS route authority. Simple.

N
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:28 am

HKG was under British rule very recently, so it is not unexpected that ownership of the airline is British. If the original Nigerian airline were also owned by Brits that would also not be an issue. But the fact that it is Virgin Group that is doing this now, no doubt aided by profits from the Virgin Atlantic's protected market of UK-US routes, that makes this a legitimate issue.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:32 am

No, it doesn't, no.

Nigeria is not England. This is a regulatory battle with the EU and England, not Nigeria.

N
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:36 am

Nigeria is not England. This is a regulatory battle with the EU and England, not Nigeria.

... and, added to that, Virgin Nigeria is majority owned by Nigerians - so it's not a British airline one way or another, but a Nigerian airline with a minority owned by a British airline.

Not to mention the fact that VS is minority owned by Singapore Airlines - shouldn't, by the same logic, VS now not be handled as a UK carrier, but a Singaporean one?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Is It Fair To Ban Virgin Nigeria From US?

Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:27 pm

leskova,

You are getting too caught up in this 51%/49% technicallity. Virgin Nigeria told US authorities they will be controlled by Virgin Atlantic. So they do not get to fly to the US as VS is a UK airline. The US would have no problem with a Nigerian carrier flying to the US provided it is controlled by Nigerian interests.

You know the US is not the only one who sees a problem here. Many in Nigeria don't want the logo/label "Virgin" slapped on the planes of the national carrier of Nigeria. Many also complain that 49% is way too high a stake for foreigners to hold.

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