NYC777
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JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:47 am

I saw on the Commercial Aircraft Orders web site (on Yahoo! Groups) that JAL is about to place a firm order for 18 7E7s as well as an unspecified number of options. The news comes from the Asian Wall Street Journal. Can anyone confrim this?

[Edited 2004-12-21 23:48:18]
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:55 am

I read this as well but I was very suprised to see JAL looking at the 7E7 before a 734/MD-80 replacement, if these rumors prove to be true. JAL is one of the airlines that will inevitably lean toward the 7E7 and was rumored to be among the first customers last year.....

The A300's JAL aquired via merger are still very young I believe....
 
gigneil
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:58 am

Very young, the youngest in the industry.

If it weren't for the close US ties, I think the A300 might have been the perfect airliner for the Japanese domestic market. JAS loved them.

JAL's 767s are getting on in years, so they could be planning to replace those. Would be weird given their recent order of 8 767-300s to replace some of JAS' non -600R A300s.

N
 
sabenapilot
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:59 am

Well, It would certainly not surprise me to see at least SOME of the many airlines rumoured to be ready to order the B7E7 for months to step forward and actually DO it, because right now, the B7E7 sales are disappointing to say the least and the A350 is steeling the show: launched only 11 days ago and already with a new airbus customer in the order book for 10 planes!

JAL would be the most logical and easiest 'win' for the B7E7....

 
NYC777
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:00 am

Yes but seeing that ANA ordered them, that might have pressured JALs board to expedite the purchase. The 7E7s will be an economically better aircraft vs. 767 and A300.

Does anyone have a link to the AWSJ article?
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:05 am

, because right now, the B7E7 sales are disappointing to say the least

Because the inital 12 months of sales matter for anything in the long run? At least the 7E7 has one blue-chip customer  Nuts

the A350 is steeling the show: launched only 11 days ago and already with a new airbus customer in the order book for 10 planes!

I'd all an Air Europa launch order about as spectacular as the Primaris 7E7 order  Big grin

JAL's 767s are getting on in years, so they could be planning to replace those. Would be weird given their recent order of 8 767-300s to replace some of JAS' non -600R A300s.

The order doesn't necessairly have to be an A300 replacement.... they could opt for the longhaul variants first. Then again, how are young A300 resale values right now versus their projected future values?
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:08 am

"Well, It would certainly not surprise me to see at least SOME of the many airlines rumoured to be ready to order the B7E7 for months to step forward and actually DO it, because right now, the B7E7 sales are disappointing to say the least and the A350 is steeling the show: launched only 11 days ago and already with a new airbus customer in the order book for 10 planes!"

Oh please, taking an existing plane and stretching it is not stealing the show. Also, I'm sure Air Europa was already in discussions with Airbus before the 350 was 'officially' launched.
Keepin' it real.
 
BH346
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:10 am

With JAL's large 767 fleet (as well as the A300s inherited from JAS) as well as Japan's relationship with Boeing, it's only a matter of time before JAL orders 7E7s. However, as said, it was said that JAL would look at a narrowbody replacement for their 737 classics, MD-80s, and MD-90s before ordering a 767/A300 replacement. With their merger with Japan Air System a few years ago, I imagine that it wouldn't be such a great idea to order all of these planes at once. They're not as strong financially as ANA as a result of the merger and integration costs.

It is true that the ex-JAS A300s are among the newest A300s out there. However, to simplify their fleet, they'll probably go since they have a large 767 fleet.
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daedaeg
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:28 am

Well, It would certainly not surprise me to see at least SOME of the many airlines rumoured to be ready to order the B7E7 for months to step forward and actually DO it, because right now, the B7E7 sales are disappointing to say the least and the A350 is steeling the show: launched only 11 days ago and already with a new airbus customer in the order book for 10 planes!

JAL would be the most logical and easiest 'win' for the B7E7....


Oh please, the A350 is stealing the show? LOL...i got a good laugh from that one. I dont think 56 orders within the first year of offering is half-bad and there's a lot more to come in 2005.

Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:33 am

Some people here just can't have it when they are reminded of the 'disappointing sale figures for the B7E7', can they?

Mind you, the fact Boeing missed their own set sales target for the B7E7 is echoed allover each time the B7E7 is mentioned and can thus also be found in this AWSJ article:

"A decision by Japan's largest airline to buy the Dreamliner would give a badly needed boost to the plane's sluggish sales campaign. Although Boeing had initially projected that it would collect orders for 200 of the jets by the end of the year, it has so far taken firm orders for only 56 of them."





 
widebody
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:45 am

Missing the orders isn't a problem, not knowing how your own market or sales campaigns are going is. It is widely understood that shareholder and market confidence in Boeing isn't the best at the moment, the Sonic Cruiser and the management problems echoing the need for reinforced confidence in the company. Announcing you will have 200 orders by year end and not meeting this target is not good for Boeing, not good at all. Whether the 200 orders arrive January 1st 05 isn't the point.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:51 am

Announcing you will have 200 orders by year end and not meeting this target is not good for Boeing, not good at all.

Well duh... to my knowledge, the exec. who was touting the "200 sales" banner has been fired. It was plausible that the 7E7 could have 200 orders by this time, but that didn't justify the announcement. The interest for 200 7E7s was present in June/July (probably still is), but I think someone got a little zealous at the probabilty they would convert into firm orders....
 
widebody
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:00 am

Either you believe too much of what you read in the media or you aren't too up to date on how a major manufacturer deals with announcements of sales projections. Boeing can't hide behind one man, regardless of his position. Toby got a raw deal, given the amount of resources he was granted. You can't simply pull a figure of 200 orders out of your **** for the biggest aircraft to enter service for years, at a time when market confidence in your company is as low as it is for Boeing. Boeing was onto a good thing and were extremely agressive in marketing the 7E7 and signing new 7E7 customers. Something between mid-2004 and now has gone off track, though I'm not too sure what is. It couldn't have been entirely the A350.

When you speak you want people to stand up and listen, not slouch back knowing they have to take your words with a grain of salt.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:01 am

phxinterrupted...

I'm sure Air Europa was already in discussions with Airbus before the 350 was 'officially' launched.

Obviously no airline will order a plane without first looking into all the details, so YES Air Europa was in discussions long before the A350 was offically launched, probably already even at the time many here were still saying the A350 was nothing more than an easy way of Airbus to stall the B7E7 sales campaign and that they couldn't come up with something truly competitive so quick and while still working on the A380....

indeed Widebody! You are 100% correct!
I guess some people in Seattle are beginning to sweat right now, because at first it looked as if it was going to be such an easy win for the B7E7, they even felt strong enough to promise 200 planes sold by the end of this year. Then Airbus managed to withhold all airlines (apart from -not surprisingly- Japan's ANA) from signing up right away and just have a look at their project too and as time passed by, impressive performance specifications for the A350 were published in the press. Performance specifications which hinted at a plane much more than a simple re-engined stretch, since it would match the B7E7's efficiency and even undercut its operating costs! Several high profile airlines already named as possible launch customers for the B7E7 subsequently went as far as publicly criticizing the B7E7 for being to small (EK) and called upon Airbus to go ahead with their plans (EI). And now the first order for the A350 is confirmed while the B7E7 hasn't sold a single time since all this started around 3 months ago! I'd call that a stunning way to fight back from Airbus and YES, they are STEELING THE SHOW this year (once again)!


[Edited 2004-12-22 01:07:12]
 
widebody
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:02 am

PS. Boeing has a habit of sacrificing those who are publicly found to do wrong, you'd be kidding yourself to believe they act individually and without authorisation.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:20 am

PS. Boeing has a habit of sacrificing those who are publicly found to do wrong, you'd be kidding yourself to believe they act individually and without authorisation.

Well no duh... but as opposed to some more dubious corperations and presidential administrations, there is a degree of accountability for upper-level executives. I think that's something the world could use more of....

(EI). And now the first order for the A350 is confirmed while the B7E7 hasn't sold a single time since all this started around 3 months ago! I'd call that a stunning way to fight back from Airbus and YES, they are STEELING THE SHOW this year (once again)!

Well hold the anti-persprent, but I don't see much sweat. The market for 200-300 seat aircraft is so large, both could sell 800+ easily in the next 15 years. If you think Airbus is poised to take greater than 50% market share over a technilogically superior aircraft that will enter service first... you need a stark reality check  Insane
 
teahan
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:42 am

@DfwRevolution:you think Airbus is poised to take greater than 50% market share over a technilogically superior aircraft that will enter service first... you need a stark reality check

Since when has entry into service really mattered, consider A340-300 vs. the Triple7.

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NYC777
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:07 am

Sabenapilot,
You seemed to forget that the 777 had fewer orders a year into the program yet that program has been a huge winner for Boeing.. The 7E7 hads more orders than the 777 did at one year. The fact that Airbus was forced to respond to the 7E7 after it was offered is more proof of the 7E7 potential.

Airbus was not planning to build the A350 coming into 2004 now with the 7E7 garnering so much interest, they have to respond.

I think you need to revise your definition of success.
The 7E7 will be a success, the A350, a stop gap measure will not.
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sabenapilot
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:11 am

DfwRevolution,

The market for 200-300 seat aircraft is so large, both could sell 800+ easily in the next 15 years.

Certainly, the B7E7 will one day reach the 200 sold mark, no doubt on my mind about it... only not this year... and maybe not even next...
Just run through the list of rumoured customers (and give them a percentage of likeliness to order the B7E7 soon) and the number of planes they'd need and you'll see that 200 figure is not on the horizon very soon.

If you think Airbus is poised to take greater than 50% market share over a technologically superior aircraft that will enter service first
I am pleased to read you too have finally come to the conclusion the A350 will take a very significant market share away from the B7E7, something unthinkable only a few months ago (Boeing thought they'd have that market segment all for themselves).

BTW, have you ever wondered how come a 'technologically superior aircraft' Boeing has been bragging over for almost a year now at every occasion as being a 'quantum leap forward' is so easily matched and even outclassed in some ways by a modified version of THE ONE plane it was designed for and supposed to beat????

I think the B7E7 does indeed contain some very interesting and even amazing technological features for which Boeing must be given all credit, but one equally has to admit 2 very big STRATEGIC errors have been made in Seattle.
The first one was that Boeing did not expect Airbus to counter their B7E7 with something new for numerous reasons: massive cost of the A380 project, relative young age of the A330, expected reluctance to simply finish of the A343, etc.
The second one being the size of the B7E7, which was set really on the low end of its market to avoid it cutting into the more lucrative B777 sales.

To me, the first error lead Boeing to make the second one and the second one is now proving to be the weakness of the B7E7 Airbus is successfully playing on.

Both errors combined lead to some very devastating questions less than one year after the launch and well before its first flight of the B7E7: is a plane which is so easily matched by an update of the plane it is supposed to replace, really the best Boeing could come up with after ten years?



 
gigneil
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:14 am

The 7E7 will be a success, the A350, a stop gap measure will not.

I don't understand why you keep saying "stop gap".

The 764 is a stopgap. The A350 is a $5.3 billion dollar new airframe project.

Just because Airbus doesn't agree that composites are this next step to the future doesn't mean its a stopgap. Its a great new plane with great potential, as is the 7E7.

N
 
sabenapilot
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:22 am

some here keep on referring to the A350 as a stop-gap or an intermediate solution from Airbus, but mind you... the A330 was the standard, the B7E7 was designed to beat it (and does so), yet the A350 will once again beat the B7E7 (check its performance spec. and operating costs per seat) so I would not call that a stop gap, I'd call that a new reference!

Introducing new technology is all very well, and the B7E7 might indeed be more technologically advanced than the A350 on some domains (although it can be argued new methods of doing the same things are not always automatically also more advanced methods) but what counts for the airlines is not whether the plane is the largest record breaker, but which will be the biggest money maker! (remember Concorde????)


 
stirling
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:42 am

How many original 737-100s were produced? Few.

How many variations on the original were made/are being made? Thousands.

Boeing has a corporate culture of "shooting first, aiming later".
It has worked in the past, can it work in the future?
Only time will tell.
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ken4556
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:16 am

"yet the A350 will once again beat the B7E7 (check its performance spec. and operating costs per seat) so I would not call that a stop gap, I'd call that a new reference!"

You are falling for the trickery of numbers. Figures lie and liers figure. Airbus is comparing the A350 and 7E7 on terms that, of course, favor the A350. But their comparisons are not accurate in the real world. It like comparing a 747-400 to a 717 on a operating costs per seat. You are comparing Apples and Oranges as they compared two aircraft with different seating capacities.

The A350 will nor beat the 7E7 when comparing exact specs and not adjusting the figures toi make one side look good, The 7E7 is a new airplane built around new technologies while the A350 is built around just better engines.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:28 am

Nyc777:

The fact that Airbus was forced to respond to the 7E7 after it was offered is more proof of the 7E7 potential.

Airbus was not forced to respond. They would have done it sooner or later anyway. They just did it sooner.

The 7E7 will be a success, the A350, a stop gap measure will not.

A350 will be a little more than stop gap measure. Just because it is not an all-new airframe does not mean it will not be successfull. Just look at next generation 737 family - would you call them stop gap measure in comparison to narrow-body Airbus family?

What we are dealing with here are two different philosophies. Both companies did a 180 on design radicalism. If I remember correctly, Boeing was publicly lashing out on Airbus for putting FBW on A320. Ten years later they came out with a 777 with - guess what? An FBW system. Now Boeing comes up with a radical next-generation aircraft design, based mostly on composites, while Airbus chooses to phase in composites gradually. I'm ready to bet money that rumored A30X "people mover" would be all composite airframe with all features 7E7 would introduce. Airbus Industrie simply chose to be the one playing it safe this time around, when it comes to introduction of large-scale composite airframes. Keep in mind that Boeing had to throw out the first composite structure they built from scratch (X-32s center wing), and eventually that cost them the JSF competition. I'm pretty sure they applied lessons learned from that mishap into 7E7 fabrication process. Airbus is sitting and watching just as Boeing did with the first commercial airliner application of fly by wire.

So instead of lashing out comments such as the ones above, You should objectively look at the entire aircraft design process history within last 20 years and apply what You'd learn to the A350 vs B787 issue instead of blindly siding with one manufacturer. I've said it before and I'll say it again: BOTH airplanes will be successfull, as much as You'd probably hate to see Airbus succeed with A350. There will be airlines who will buy 787, and there will be airlines who will buy A350. The real winner of this competition will come out once both airframes are in service with proven track record pertaining to true field performance, not some paper figures prepared by sales team members of either Airbus or Boeing.
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greaser
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:43 am

yet the A350 will once again beat the B7E7 (check its performance spec. and operating costs per seat) so I would not call that a stop gap, I'd call that a new reference!
Since when was Airbus so stupid they touted their aircraft as inferior to the competition?
Now you're really flying
 
mdsh00
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:55 am

yet the A350 will once again beat the B7E7 (check its performance spec. and operating costs per seat) so I would not call that a stop gap, I'd call that a new reference!

Wow, I've never seen such blind support like I have from you. History has shown us the levels of accuracy between A and B. Why don't we just wait for a few months and see what happens before making such assertive statements, shall we?
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
aviasian
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:09 pm

Sadly, as is the case with almost every B7E7 discussion, this discussion about a possible JAL order has been hijacked and turned into another mindless A vs B war.

I know I speak for many when I say that we are getty weary of reading any postings that has the potential to turn into this.

KC Sim
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mymiles2go
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:14 pm

Regarding the commentL: "Mind you, the fact Boeing missed their own set sales target for the B7E7 is echoed allover"

Let I re-mind you that the end of the year ends next weekend. Thereby it is pretty inaccurate to use a word which implies something has already happend. Let me further remind you that as of last Friday (which is still THIS year) Boeing was still publically saying they plan to hit that target. (see: http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh22820_2004-12-17_05-21-55_sin66667_newsml)

Whether or not I believe that is completely irrelevant. When you're debating the points you at least need to ensure you get them right.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:02 pm

Boeing has a corporate culture of "shooting first, aiming later".

Yes because Boeing certainly did that with the 777  Yeah sure

Since when was Airbus so stupid they touted their aircraft as inferior to the competition?

He's referring to the fact that Airbus compares the A350-800 (250 seats) to the 7E7-8 (220 seats), and the A350-900 (~290 seats) to the 7E7-9 (250 seats). It isn't an honest comparison but it isn't that wild of a comparison either, as Airbus can hypothetically offer it as a viable alternative to the -8.

BTW, have you ever wondered how come a 'technologically superior aircraft' Boeing has been bragging over for almost a year now at every occasion as being a 'quantum leap forward' is so easily matched and even outclassed in some ways by a modified version of THE ONE plane it was designed for and supposed to beat????

Because the A350 is, as of today, talk. It is only T-A-L-K. By this time next year that could possibly change, but as of today, Boeing is the company with an aircraft at 90% design completion and Airbus are the ones with a Photoshop-ed A330 saying "Hey look at us." The 7E7 will enter production in the next 12 months while we know jack shit as to the exact definition of any part of the "A350" what-so-ever. That gives a whole shitload of credibility to Boeing and virtually none to you.

Of course the A350 is "superior," do you think that Airbus will come out and say... "we are planning a response, but it won't be half the 7E7?"

The first one was that Boeing did not expect Airbus to counter their B7E7 with something new for numerous reasons: relative young age of the A330, expected reluctance to simply finish of the A343, etc.

The scope of the A350 derrivitive shows that you are wrong. If the A330 isn't old, why is $5 billion USD necessary to bring it up to par? The A330 design will be over 25 years old if the A350 flies in 2010....

Both errors combined lead to some very devastating questions less than one year after the launch and well before its first flight of the B7E7: is a plane which is so easily matched by an update of the plane it is supposed to replace, really the best Boeing could come up with after ten years?

You have no clue as to the A350's true performance! Quit acting like all of the sudden it has been shown that the 7E7 is a flop. I was waiting for you to give a phony "Now don't get me wrong, I love all airplanes," but christ... you're even more zealous/biased/blinded than I am. And that's saying something!!

There is nothing on the A350, and given Boeing's conservative nature, what makes you think Airbus will come close to the 7E7? Compare the 777X of 2000 to the 773ER/772LR of 2004, Boeing shattered their inital goals... the A350 will only inspire them to hammer Airbus again.
 
blackknight
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:21 pm

Was the statement by Boeing last summer about having 200 sales of the 7E7 by January 2005 responsible for the A350? Would Airbus have rushed the A350 to market if Boeing had quietly gone about business?

So is Airbus going to hire this guy, he did them a big favor and gave them a wake up call.
BK
 
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RayChuang
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:18 pm

I think JL will order the 7E7-3 primarily for Japanese domestic flights. I do think that JL is seriously looking at a pretty large 737-700/800 order soon--maybe as much as 60+ airframes.
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:32 pm

Also have heared that JL prefers the 7E7 but it's a rumour. Reason is that the US has lots of debts in Japan and China and so it's the easiest way for Japanese companies to buy US products.

Now let's talk about a sort of subsidies again  Wink/being sarcastic
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:43 pm

JAL has confirmed they'll make a statement around 5pm Tokyo time today. 17 minutes to wait!

In Hong Kong, Boeing's spokesman Mark Hooper declined to
comment. Japan Airlines will issue a statement regarding its plan
to ``introduce new aircraft'' after 5 p.m. Japan time today,
according to a statement at the nation's transport ministry.


Regards
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
PVG
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:53 pm

NO. 12: US HAS LOTS OF DEBTS IN JAPAN & CHINA, BUT ALSO BUYS THE MAJORITY OF BOTH COUNTRIES EXPORTS! ONE HAND WASHES THE OTHER IS A MORE APPROPRIATE COMMENT.
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:58 pm

is that a reason to cry ?
If this would be the reason, Japan should have to buy A and B planes - so that's not the answer.


[Edited 2004-12-22 09:08:44]
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atmx2000
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:00 pm

Reason is that the US has lots of debts in Japan and China and so it's the easiest way for Japanese companies to buy US products.

No the reason is that the US govt did not complain about Japan trying to prop the dollar up so as to boost competitiveness of Japanese companies selling into the US to help export their way out of the decade long funk Japan was in. Now that their economy is growing and they have reduced the deflationary spiral they were in, it is payback time. But it is not a full payback, because Japan is also getting a large share of the 7e7 work. Of course they have to help pay for the development and share some risk. Perhaps the Japanese government will help with the "marketing" of the plane to other Asian countries, now that they have a large stake in the success of the program.
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NumberTwelve
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:10 pm

Atmx2000, I wanted to answer but don't do - because otherwise we get off topic.



[Edited 2004-12-22 09:13:40]
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:27 pm

They ordered 30 firm plus 20 options
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
columba
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:28 pm

I think you need to revise your definition of success.
The 7E7 will be a success, the A350, a stop gap measure will not.

With your words the 737NG would have been a stop gap aswell since it is just a redesigned aircraft from the sixties. You see that a stretched and re-engined aircraft with a new wing can become a success. I don´t understand you blindly Boeing nuts : if something works Boeing it is a brand new aircraft in no way to compare with the old version and if Airbus improves its "state of the art" aircraft A330 it is just a stop gap. Wouldn´t say so !!!
I´ll think both planes have a lot of potential and both companies will have a 50 % market share.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:00 pm

50% marketshare in what range-capacity market? The 7E7 and A350 do not go up against each other directly, and only come close with the 7E7-9 and A350-800. Airbus doesn't really have an offering at this point that compares with the 7E7-8 and 7E7-3 (other than the ancient A300). The A350-900 on the other hand will be a competitor more to the 772ER (and A340-300). Bottom line is you can't compare A350 and 7E7 wins, like you could compare the 772A/ER/LR and A333/A343/A345.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
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RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:07 pm

Atmx2000, I guess the 50 % marketshare is A/B in total.
And this is realistic, even if A has little more than B in 2004 - it's 50 % marketshare.
signature censored by admin - so check my profile
 
StickShaker
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:34 pm

RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:17 pm

Official Boeing news release:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2004/q4/nr_041222g.html

JAL's requirement for 30 firm deliveries and 20 options will be fulfilled with a combination of 7E7-3s and 7E7-8s.

Highly anticipated but a still a good order nonetheless.

50% marketshare in what range-capacity market? The 7E7 and A350 do not go up against each other directly, and only come close with the 7E7-9 and A350-800 ...... Bottom line is you can't compare A350 and 7E7 wins

Very good point.
The 7e7 competes in the 225 and 250 seat market.
The A350 competes in the 250 and 300 (285) seat market.

What we are dealing with here are two different philosophies. Both companies did a 180 on design radicalism ....... Now Boeing comes up with a radical next-generation aircraft design, based mostly on composites, while Airbus chooses to phase in composites gradually.

Excellent post BlueSky1976. I agree, both aircraft will be successful and both embody the design philosophy of 2 very different companies.
The A350 wing, being mostly CRFP would normally be considered revolutionary if not for the presence of the 7e7, no other commercial aircraft uses such a wing. Same applies to the use of Al-Li alloys in other components. Take away the 7e7 for a moment and then look at the A350, it employs many new technologies and materials. The lack of a composite fuselage should not give it the tag of "stop gap measure".
Both manufacturers are using an unprecedented number of new materials and technologies - the winner will be the commercial aviation industry.

Cheers,
StickShaker
 
FCKC
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:39 pm

RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:27 pm

Nothing new here !!!!!!!!

This order is not signed yet (it's only a MOU) , and will be in Spring 2005.

So expect a large order of around 100 planes by JAL for Boeing (7E7s , 737NGs) next Spring.It will be the top sale of the year 2005 for Boeing.

This announcement in December is only for marketing , to try boosting the 7E7 sales up to the 200 as promised by Boeing.
Surely JAL has been asked by Boeing to make this announcenent earlier than expected..............
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:45 pm

It's a no-brainer really as JAL will require replacements to upgrade the older 767s they are flying, some of which fly high-cycle operations.

Likewise expect JAL to go for the GENX engine as they have longstanding ties to GE.

And can we have this "Airbus knee-jerk" horseshit put to bed once and for all? Airbus were flight testing wing systems for the next generation of widebody two YEARS ago! The A350 has been in development for a lot longer than the squabbling A versus B kiddies here seem to think.

And the stopgap thing makes me roar. By the same logic, the 737NG should also have been a miserable failure. Obviously Boeing were totally misguided when they decided to evolve a current design rather than build something totally new, and their sales reflect this... Nuts
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:56 pm

FCKC,

We are not talking about Iberia here. Boeing can chalk up 30 firm orders + 20 options today and dot the i's and cross the t's in the spring.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:17 pm

Yes because Boeing certainly did that with the 777

Yes. They did.

The 777-200A was not a popular airframe. It had horrible reliability problems, the dispatch rate was pathetic, and the capabilities of the plane just didn't give it many orders.

The 777-200IGW was where the 777 found its footing, and even then problems plagued the airplane.

Obviously, the bugs got worked out, because its the top model in its class. But it took effort to get there.


The scope of the A350 derrivitive shows that you are wrong. If the A330 isn't old, why is $5 billion USD necessary to bring it up to par? The A330 design will be over 25 years old if the A350 flies in 2010....


All fine points. I agree wholly, but it doesn't disprove his assertion. His assertion was that Boeing didn't expect Airbus to respond to the tune of $5.5b.

He was right. Boeing didn't expect that, and honestly neither did I. I really expected an A330 with GEnx engines and maybe a composite wingbox. $5.5b buys you almost an entirely new plane.

N
 
NYC777
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:40 pm

This announcement in December is only for marketing , to try boosting the 7E7 sales up to the 200 as promised by Boeing.

Oh and the Air Europa order wasn't...please wake up and smell what you're shoveling!


Surely JAL has been asked by Boeing to make this announcenent earlier than expected..............

And you know this how?
 Insane


[Edited 2004-12-22 15:47:32]
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:42 pm

Roll your eyes. I'm also positive its true.

N
 
sanscott744
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:43 pm

RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:00 am

Its Official! The local news in San Diego has reported it and it is for 30 new 7E7 aircraft!
 
FCKC
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:39 pm

RE: JAL 7E7 Order Rumor

Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:54 am

Nyc777

And you know this how ?


Because i have a brain.