haveric
Posts: 1219
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 9:31 am

US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:50 am

In addition to LH adding a 744 on the PHL-FRA route next summer, US will begin 2x daily service in April:

US Airways 782 PHL FRA 450P 750A+1 0 767
US Airways 894 PHL FRA 810P 1105A+1 0 333


No doubt, this is the aircraft that previously flew PIT-FRA. Good to see PHL's new International Terminal continue to grow. Spring will also see the introduction of PHL-VCE, PHL-BCN.
 
legendDC9
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:24 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:12 am

I wonder how much these seats on the titanic are going for...
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2897
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:19 am

That's smart....flood the market with seats.....drop the yields.....US goes under....LH downgrades the flight to an A343 and ends up making a killing on the route!
.......
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:29 am

LH doesn't downgrade PHL. They even upgrade it to 3times weekly 747. In fact LH and US seems to cooperate quite good.
Star is not enough for survival, but it certainly already helped US to gain some extra profits.
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:47 pm

It's amazing that people think the know what the market demand is. Obviously for the summer a second PHL-FRA will be needed considering it is a large tourist city. If they didn't think the route could support it they would put the wide body elsewhere. Aside from the fact that at PHL there is really not much competition on NTA flying.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:06 pm

Is US gonna be around next year? haha
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:18 pm

Are YOU going to be around next year?
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
willbdsp
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:15 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:21 pm

It still boggles my mind how US pulled the PIT hub down but yet they have added flights to PHL and CLT. I guess I'll never understand the economics behind that one.


 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:29 pm

It still boggles my mind how US pulled the PIT hub down but yet they have added flights to PHL and CLT. I guess I'll never understand the economics behind that one.

Simple. It costs more for US to operate out of PIT than it does from PHL and CLT. Some figures indicated that US was paying almost twice as much to fly a pax through PIT than through other airports.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
flyinggizmo
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:51 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:26 pm

Willbdsp writes:

"It still boggles my mind how US pulled the PIT hub down but yet they have added flights to PHL and CLT. I guess I'll never understand the economics behind that one."

Sir, have you ever been to Pittsburgh? If you come here, you will learn that it is a dying city with nowhere near enough population to support an airline hub, let alone even a "focus city". The traffic that is seen at PIT, those people you see in the terminal, they are CONNECTORS. People were flying thru PIT to connect, but no one wants to goto PIT as a destination. There is nothing there anymore - steel mills are closed, businesses are gone, city is bankrupt and corrupt as all hell. The terminal is going to be a "white elephant" as the local paper called it come next year as there will be more gates than there are flights. And don't even start about cost issues - Allegheny county has ripped US Airways all along on the fees, and now they are whining because they got caught red handed and are now being punished for it.

LegendDC9 writes:

"I wonder how much these seats on the titanic are going for..."

Your name refers to Legend Airlines, the carrier that got killed by a computer hacker. Chew on that for awhile.

Jmc1975 writes:

"That's smart....flood the market with seats.....drop the yields.....US goes under....LH downgrades the flight to an A343 and ends up making a killing on the route!"

Obviously, you don't know or understand much about the dynamics of the summer market on that route, or the effects of code sharing. PHL-FRA is the primary link between the US and all points east of the U.K. for US Airways, as it hooks into LH thru Star Alliance in FRA, and allows almost all connections thru the US PHL hub. If you could see the loads that are hauled in the summertime on that city pair, you would quickly realize that it is crazy NOT to have a second flight. Flights are oversold nearly every flight, and cargo is so much that it can't all be handled. Believe me, cargo gets bumped on this route, and it is not good when that happens(lost revenue). So having a second flight in the summer is definitely a good move.

If you want to talk about a loser route in the system, try PHL-SNN. This is basically a flight meant to appease the Irish government, as in "If you want to serve DUB, you must serve SNN". That flight is always open, and carries light loads.
 
usairways85
Posts: 3564
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:38 pm

Just a bit surprising to see the route go from a daily US 333 and LH 343 this summer to 2 daily US (333, 762) and 1 daily LH (4x 744, 3x 343) next summer. It's quite an increase on the days the LH 744 flies in.

Not that i don't welcome just surprised to see it all come at once. I thought this increase would come, but actually thought it would come sooner.
 
pgh234
Posts: 732
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:48 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:47 pm

Flyinggizmo: All hubs, including PHL, are filled with a majority of connecting passengers. PIT was not odd in this aspect...that is simply how hubs work. Also, the PIT metro area is bigger than CLT's (Just some food for thought, I don't have the immediate numbers but many a.net'ers have argued this point in the past with the correct figures) While PHL has more o/d, I believe US is simply killing itself because, as we can all see, PHL is not capable of handling the traffic that US is trying to shove through it.

As for PIT-FRA, no one knows why it was really pulled. According to US pre-bankruptcy, it was among the most profitable flights (2nd flight in the US system to be upgraded to A-330). LH can come in and, using Bayer,*Alliance feed, cargo that constantly filled the underbelly of the A-330, and a city that can easily support a non-stop to Europe that is filled with hungry US Dividend Mile card-holders, LH can turn a profit.
 
flyinggizmo
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:51 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:08 pm

Pgh234 writes:

"Also, the PIT metro area is bigger than CLT's"

And, behold the wonders of wikipedia...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte
"As of 2004, census estimates show there are 614,330 people living in Charlotte, and 801,137 in Mecklenburg County. The county's population is projected to reach 1 million in 2010."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh
"Pittsburgh's population decline during the last half century is remarkable."

The PIT "metro" area is bigger than CLT's. Yes, but is calling Johnstown and Beaver part of PIT really fair? That is pumping up of numbers to try to attract businesses under falsified data.

PIT-FRA was pulled simply because Allegheny county was ripping the airline off on landing fees and the presence of one company, Bayer, does not justify running flights from Podunk, PA to a major European city and hub. It is about as intelligent as declaring a place like Columbus, OH to be a "world" city. The flight from PIT-FRA was NEVER profitable. Sure the flight was full in the summer, as all the local wealthy folks used to love to use it to get to Europe, but the fact is it never made a cent of profit. And don't try that line about LH coming into PIT - they have already laughed at the mayor and told him no way.

"I believe US is simply killing itself because, as we can all see, PHL is not capable of handling the traffic that US is trying to shove through it."

You are wrong on all counts. PHL is a mess because of inadequate staffing and poor turn times on aircraft, as well as a peaked schedule for arrivals and departures. In addition, ALL the carriers at PHL are suffering from incompetance at the ATC tower, as the FAA has funneled most of their rookie controllers for the tower and ground into PHL. All of it equals a complete cluster**** that festers day in and out. Add to it a local workforce that isn't worth a damn(as in, they like to get the moolah but don't want to have to work for it). Until these things are fixed, nothing will get better at PHL.
 
LXsaab2000
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:00 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:02 pm

How many flights and which routes does USAir operate the next summer between Europe and USA?
Thanks

Bye
 
9V-SPF
Posts: 1340
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:42 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:24 pm

How many flights and which routes does USAir operate the next summer between Europe and USA?

These are the ones that come to my mind:

From Philadelphia to:

Amsterdam daily 767
Dublin daily 767
Shannon daily 767
Frankfurt daily 333, daily 767
Glasgow daily 767
London daily 333
Madrid daily 333
Manchester daily 333
Munich daily 767
Paris daily 333
Rome daily 333
Venice daily 767

From Charlotte to:

Frankfurt daily 333
London daily 333
 
cragley
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:09 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:43 pm


From a UK travel perspective, the guys at work prefer to route via Charlotte cause its less crowded and takes the stress out of going to the states.
It's also better for tourists travelling to Florida.

Instead of critisizing airlines, how's about we start supporting them instead. Strange concept I know, but if US Airways goes under, who are you left with?
And more importantly, why are you kicking the dog when its down?

Though I agree, 3 daily flights between FRA and PHL does seem a bit much.
I wouldn;t be suprised to see LH pushing pax onto US flights over UA flights.

 
willbdsp
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:15 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:52 pm

Flyinggizmo:

Have I ever been to Pittsburgh? Yes, actually, I have. I was born and raised in Pittsburgh and I have a lot of hometown pride. My job, however has taken me away from the Steel City.

PIT was a Hub airport in a hub and spoke model. Because of this, there is going to be a lot of connections.

Gate fees and other airport fees are high in PIT because of the airport and the bonds that were used to finance it. US wanted a big airport because they wanted to make PIT their mega hub, so it was built to be a mega hub. (Which took a lot of money to do) When the industry took a turn down, the fees didn't go down. The financing situation for the airport sucks and it is hurting the region as well as the airline.

 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:02 pm

"From a UK travel perspective, the guys at work prefer to route via Charlotte cause its less crowded and takes the stress out of going to the states."

Cragley, please tell me what map you are going by. According to every map I've seen, Charlotte is in the state of North Carolina, which has been part of the United States since its inception, save for four years when they became part of the Confederate States of America. Additionally, I can tell you that I fly through Charlotte all of the time, and yet somehow, when I get off that US Airways flight from LaGuardia, I manage to evade US customs.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
cragley
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:09 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:17 pm

SHUP

May I recommend prozac.

I am clealy saying that customs and immigration at charlotte is easier and more convenient for business travellers as it is less crowded.

Oh and the map I am going by is the map of the globe. You might find it in an atlas perhaps.

lose the attitude, its ugly and uneccesary.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:27 pm

Cragley-Thanks for the Prozac recommendation. Unfortunately, I am already at the maximum legal dosage, and another pill per day will kill me, or at least that's what my doctor says.  Big grin

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I apologize for my attitude, I misread what you meant. My first reaction was that you were referring to Charlotte Amalie, St. Thomas, US Virgin Islands, where believe it or not you are required to clear US Customs before a "domestic" flight (St. Thomas' Airport has preclearance). Additionally, as I have never cleared US Customs at an airport (I have cleared US Customs, but always on a cruiseship), I would not know that PHL's Customs is absolute purgatory, whereas CLT's is a relative breeze.

I apologize for what I said, and I recognize with 20/20 hindsight that it was totally out of line. However, I do know that I cannot take what I said back. In the future, I will make every attempt to not be so rude and obnoxious.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
9V-SPF
Posts: 1340
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:42 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:00 am

Although it´s none of my business at all, I have to congratulate you, SHUPirate1, for behaving very, very fine!
It doesn´t take much to make a little mistake that might hurt somebody more than one might think.
But it definitely requires a lot to stand up and say: I apologize!

Well done to you!  Big thumbs up
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:25 am

9V-SPF: Thank you very much. Everybody makes mistakes, nobody is perfect. However, many people (in all walks of life, not just a.net), rather than admitting that they made that mistake, will instead try to justify what they said. I tried to inject dry, deadpan humor into something he said, and I instead made myself look stupid. The easy way out would have been to continue to allow the situation to escalate, but the easy way isn't always (or even usually) the best way. Instead, I recognized that I made a mistake, and I had no problem owning up to said mistake.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
gilesdavies
Posts: 2274
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:51 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:31 am

I am surprised that no second daily service between LGW-PHL is operating this summer with US Airways.

This summer LGW will have lost two 767 services with US to PHL and PIT.

LGW always use to be their biggest European destination.
 
N670UW
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:55 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:49 am

The PIT "metro" area is bigger than CLT's. Yes, but is calling Johnstown and Beaver part of PIT really fair? That is pumping up of numbers to try to attract businesses under falsified data.

Pittsburgh local traffic draws from the metro area, as does Charlotte's local traffic, so yes, it's a fair comparison. Secondly, it's not 'falsified data'. Johnstown isn't part of the metro area. The metro area just means it's not just the city of Pittsburgh. Bethel Park, Coraopolis, Moon, Mount Lebanon, West Mifflin, Monroeville, McKeesport, Penn Hills. That's the PIT metro area. It's just as fair as using, Gastonia, Belmont, etc. as part of the CLT metro area.

PIT-FRA was pulled simply because Allegheny county was ripping the airline off on landing fees

For a Taj Mahal terminal insisted by your beloved US Airways. I'm not saying the county isn't at fault here. They partially are, for betting the farm all on one airline (and a joke of an airline in this case). But US insisted on that terminal, and it has to be paid for somehow.

The traffic that is seen at PIT, those people you see in the terminal, they are CONNECTORS.

The percentage of connecting traffic at CLT is higher than it ever was at PIT.


Clearly your incessant hate for Pittsburgh is getting in the way of seeing the facts.



N670UW

[Edited 2004-12-23 23:50:53]
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:05 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:50 am

SPF's list above omits PHL-Barcelona.... another new one for '05.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
LXsaab2000
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:00 pm

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:03 am

X 9V-SPF.
Thanks for all! ...
....I think there should be BCN-PHL too!  Smile
Bye.

P.S.
Just as curiosity : during 2003, 158 986 pax have flown on US 2/3 (PHL-FCO-PHL).... on average 218 pax per flight.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5450
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:01 am

Flyinggizmo writes:

'And, behold the wonders of wikipedia...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte
"As of 2004, census estimates show there are 614,330 people living in Charlotte, and 801,137 in Mecklenburg County. The county's population is projected to reach 1 million in 2010."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh
"Pittsburgh's population decline during the last half century is remarkable."'

Of course, in his attempt to obscure the facts, he chooses to ignore the census data regarding Pittsburgh, in which Allegheny County had 1.27 million inhabitants as of July, 2002 -- or roughly 50% more than Mecklenburg County. Moreover, he chooses to ignore actual O&D traffic figures from USDOT, which show PIT having 5.7 million O&D passengers in 2002 in comparison to 4.6 million at CLT. PIT also slightly outpaced CLT in revenue that year, with $999 million vs. $988 million coming from O&D passengers. And when you consider that CLT could be a single bank merger away from losing a significant chunk of its business traffic...

High per-passenger airport costs at PIT are also largely US Airways' doing. With mainline departures having been cut by 75% from 2001, per-passenger costs are bound to escalate given the fixed cost of bond service on the terminal -- which was built at the behest of USAir's management. And PHL's per-passenger costs are comparable to PIT's; it's just that stronger O&D at PHL makes it a better place to concentrate traffic aside from PHL's well-known operational problems. CLT would also look like a high-cost airport if US Airways were to eliminate most mainline flying there.

Flyinggizmo also claims, "In addition, ALL the carriers at PHL are suffering from incompetance at the ATC tower, as the FAA has funneled most of their rookie controllers for the tower and ground into PHL. All of it equals a complete cluster**** that festers day in and out."

Really? Southwest had 84.1% of their flights into PHL arrive on time in September and 84.7% in October. I guess not EVERYONE suffers from so-called "incompetance" [sic] at PHL.
 
willbdsp
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:15 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Fri Dec 24, 2004 12:06 pm

Bravo N670UW! Thank you for saying what I was thinking. Welcome to my respected user list!
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:05 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:00 pm

ScottB...

Regardless of whose fault it was, PIT could not compete financially (fees, O&D traffic) with PHL. So PHL it was.

And logistically, one cannot say that CLT and PIT compete with each other... they are in different regions of the country. So what exactly is your point?

But yes, truth is important, point or no point. Regards.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
flyinggizmo
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:51 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:05 pm

N670UW,

If Allegheny county was in such deep trouble, then why did they go and splurge my tax money on two sports stadiums that were not even needed? I too live in this rip job of a city just like you, and have done so for the last 12 years. In that time, I have observed a city and political structure that did nothing but bad mouth their largest employer and largest airport customer. How many other cities do YOU know of who tell their citizens to goto another city nearby to fly on a different airline, instead of supporting the home town team?

ScottB wrote:

"Really? Southwest had 84.1% of their flights into PHL arrive on time in September and 84.7% in October. I guess not EVERYONE suffers from so-called "incompetance" [sic] at PHL."

Uh, Scott, are you aware that Southwest is an airline that does not use ACARS for OOOI reporting? They have acknowledged themselves that they are the biggest liars in the airline business when it comes to honest time stat reporting, and if you are willing to believe the figures you quoted, then I have a bridge to sell you. Also, please remember that at PHL right now WN is the darling of ATC, and as today's flight delays inbound proved, they get what they want. WN got their flights into PHL today without a problem, while other airlines were forced to divert. WN has had ATC at PHL in their pocket since the fall; free trips to Disney for the tower managers families and the other goodies has bought their loyalty. Don't believe me? Contact anyone who works at PHL tower, and they will tell you what has been going on with a smile. As far as the quality of PHL controllers, you only need to look at what happened today to get an idea of the quality of people working there.
 
Azul320
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:49 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:50 pm

This guy is calling them out. Misinformed, misguided you name it. Welcome RU.

[Edited 2004-12-24 09:54:39]
Excuse me, while I kiss the sky
 
haveric
Posts: 1219
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 9:31 am

RE: US To Begin 2x Daily PHL-FRA Next Summer

Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:07 am

flyinggizmo -- allegheny county paid for only 1/3 the cost of the stadiums. the other 2/3ds were paid by the state and teams.

and they did need a stadium -- three rivers was a first class dump, as was the previous airport in pittsburgh.