SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:32 am

Here's the situation...I flew US Airways LGA-361-CLT-728-IAH. US 728 CLT-IAH was thought to be oversold, and as a result, they bumped me onto American flight 659, leaving CLT for DFW at 8:28 AM, connecting to CO 2524 DFW-IAH. This was done at 8:17 AM, and the ticket was confirmed. I got to the American gate (A9, coming from B5), and they refused to accomodate me, not even bothering to look in the computer to see that I was confirmed on American 659 before closing the door. As fate would have it, I went back to B5, found the jetway still open, and was informed that there were seats on US 728 to IAH. Who should I be blaming here? Here's what I figured I should expect from each carrier:

US: one free capacity-controlled roundtrip ticket anywhere within the United States (they did just that)

AA: A voucher on American Airlines for half of the one-way Y-fare for CLT-DFW, on the basis that, truth be told, they involuntarily denied me boarding. Fortunately, I was able to get into IAH on my original flight, 3 hours before the AA flight would have gotten me in, but the wear and tear on dashing both ways from B5 to A9 at CLT, particularly with the AA people not even dealing with me, I feel like I should be entitled to something from them.
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luv2fly
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:37 am

Sorry to say this though AA owes you nothing in my opinion, for what its worth. Did US call and confirm that they would actually take you, or did they just FIM you over to them? If US actually did confirm with AA a seat for you then maybe AA should explain themselves to you, though compensation for not taking you and you still ended up at your destination quicker than AA would have gotten you there! That is a stretch, IMHO!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
AIR757200
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:47 am


If I understand correctly, if US Airways rerouted you to AA (because they were oversold) and if they didn't check with AA first, AA can deny you boarding and send you back to your original airline. (for many reasons: FIM incorrectly issued, non-refundable ticket, oversold AA flight, etc.)

You never bought a ticket on AA so you can't expect any compensation. If anything, US Airways should of provided you with something.

I've had it happen countless times when NW would send over passengers and we were full/oversold and we sent them back to NW.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:55 am

Luv2fly, AIR757200-You know, the more I think about it, the more I think I'm being too harsh on AA. However, the fact is, they cleared standby passengers on the flight AFTER I got there (to be fair, they were revenue standby passengers). That said, I really should have no reason to complain in retrospect. I got a free ticket on US, and I got to my destination at the same time as I shoud have. Thanks for knocking some sense into me!
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
AAplatnumflier
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:58 am

It is US Airways fault as said above. The flight could have been full or the gate agents could have been notified by the US Airways agents ahead of time and said no but they still sent you. Who knows but US Airways is at fault.
 
stlgph
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:03 am

Well now let me ask you this....a trip was booked for me on AA.com from STL to CVG to CLE on Delta and connecting to Continental Airlines to go from CLE from LGA. It's a multi-city excursion. Problem is...my record locator is through AA and is a complete different number from my confirmed locator number on Delta. Continental, on the other hand, has no record of me whatsoever. So what happens when I get to Cleveland and I go to Continental to try to get to LGA and they wonder who the heck I am? I have ticket print outs from the confirmation emails and from the website...but....!?!?!?!?!?
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AAplatnumflier
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:06 am

Well if you get stuck AA operates from CLE-LGA but I would think that you would just give what you have to CO and it would be fine. I dont know to be truely honest.
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:42 am

Even though your rec loc is different, your name and flight number remain the same. The carrying airlines will be able to recognise you and check you in. This is pretty standard
 
FlewGSW
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:24 am

What that todays, December 27th flight? If so it went out full, and left two AA passengers bumped to a later Eagle flight. So AA would not have accepted any other airlines travelers when they could not accomidate their own.
 
AIR757200
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:43 am


So AA would not have accepted any other airlines travelers when they could not accomidate their own.

I don't think he stated that the AA flight left people behind... his US Airways flight was oversold. But, to comment on your statement... AA would (as would any other airline) obviously get it's own passengers on board before accepting other airline passengers.
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:45 am

The AA flight left three (not two, as FlewGSW stated) revenue standby passengers behind. The AA flight did NOT, voluntarily or involuntarily, deny boarding to anybody. My question has been, and remains, this: why would American accept my reissue eleven minutes prior to departure, and then deny me boarding without so much of a look at the passenger manifest to see if I was supposed to be on the plane?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
September11
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:50 am

Personally speaking, it's not US Airways' fault or American's fault. You are just unlucky passenger.

US Airways or American can not be perfect. You have to expect irregular operations at US Airways and American.

Airliners.net of the Future
 
haveric
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:07 am

you got where you wanted to be at the time you wanted to be there. I find the fact that you got anything from US quite amazing. They met the terms of their contract of carriage with you.
 
Cactus739
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:14 am

Yeah, but he wants something for the inconvenience.

Take what you got from US and run with it. Use it quickly, and don't check bags.

You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:24 am

As far as I'm concerned, US Airways has more than acquitted themselves well, which is one reason why, as long as their planes continue to take off and land, they will get most of my business. My concern here is not with US Airways. It's with American, who accepted the reissue, and then denied me boarding. Certainly, I will not hold one (relatively small) incident like this against an airline on its own, and never fly them again, unless it is something significant (see Independence Air). Why would I ask for a voucher FOR FUTURE AMERICAN AIRLINES TRAVEL if I didn't want to fly them? What I can say, however, is that I feel that American should not be totally left off the hook here, and I feel I am entitled to something from them.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
September11
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:30 am

I think you need to travel more often to get used to those unfortunate airport/flight adventures.

After all, it's fun to fight for yourself with the airlines. Dust at airlines will never settle down.



Airliners.net of the Future
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:33 am

Can't understand either why US gave you something. What inconvenience? You got on the exact flight that you were suppposed to catch. Ah well. Good for you
 
Cactus739
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:37 am

So you don't want a voucher from them or you do?

In your original post you say they should give you a voucher. Your statements in response 14 suggest that you don't want a voucher because you don't play to fly AA, but you feel that you are entitled to something.

Unfortunately American owes you nothing. US Airways made your booking on them, US Airways made the goof up. American was following their own procedures and did what they were supposed to do.

Besides, doesn't American have a policy that if your rear isn't in the seat 10 minutes before departure that they reserve the right to give that seat to someone else?

You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:41 am

Aerofan-They gave me the free ticket voucher when they sent me off to gate A9 for American 659 to catch that departure. If US Airways had asked me to give the voucher back, I would have, however, it's for reasons like that (them letting me keep the voucher, knowing I am valued as a customer rather than a PNR number) that when it comes to booking my next flight that I have to pay for, I will go to US Airways, even with their situation (hopefully they'll survive, although I do have my doubts).
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:55 am

I do want a voucher from American. There are only two airlines in the United States that I will not willingly fly, namely Delta and Independence Air. That has not changed. All airlines are going to have their foul ups, they are just a fact of life. The way that an airline deals with their foul ups, however, is far more important. Additionally, I generally won't refuse to fly an airline based on one incident (Independence Air is an exception, because of the circumstances), most often, in order for me to refuse to willingly fly an airline, there has to be a pattern of such issues and blatant disregard. Clearly, with American in this case, that point has not been reached.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:58 am

Ship- bull! you like most of us will go to the carrier that has the lowest fare. I still do not see why what happened merits any compensation. But as I stated earlier good for you that you got something out of it! IMO all that this merits is an apology.
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:11 pm

Aerofan-bull? Not bull at all. I don't know if you've seen my flights for this year, however, for flights I've actually paid for, or I've booked myself, every single flight has been on either US Airways or United, except for a pair of Independence JFK-IAD-JFK turns, one for the weekend to visit somebody down there and to try them, and one for what was supposed to be an interview with Independence Air. Sure, if the price difference is significant, I'll fly an airline other than US or UA, but given relatively equal prices (meaning, within 50 dollars or so), I'll fly one of the aforementioned bankrupt carriers.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
Cactus739
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:25 pm

While I don't think you should get jack from American....

what do people that actually work for American think about this "issue"?

(ps - I knew you'd find a way to get your grudge against Indy in this topic)

You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
kanebear
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:28 pm

SHU - Unless you have hard proof that US confirmed you on AA I would believe entirely that the person you dealt with sent you on a wild goose chase to get you out of their hair. As for AA not dealing with you, while it's poor customer service it doesn't warrant any compensation. If AA knew they weren't going to be able to accommodate their own revenue pax and had already given the seats to their own revenue standbys they should've told you so and sent you on your way. What exactly did the AA GA say to you?
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:33 pm

Kanebear-I have the hard proof that US confirmed me on AA. In fact, I even asked for (and received) the SABRE printouts that showed me being confirmed on the American flight. As for them giving the seats to their own revenue standbys, they didn't until after I had already showed up at the gate and told them I had a confirmed reservation, and the American gate agent didn't even think to look at her computer for me.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:54 pm

Given the flight numbers you provided:

AA 659 is scheduled to depart at 8:28 a.m. from CLT bound to DFW.

The rebooking by the US agents occured, according to you, 8:17 a.m. When including the time it takes to walk/run from gates B5 to A9, this puts you within the 15-minute "involuntary boarding" situation. The AA agent, therefore, was only following protocol by not boarding you, and the fault should be placed on the US agents for not taking heed of the 15-minute window and rebooking you on a later flight. AA does not owe you anything IMO.

Directly from AA.com:

Reservations are subject to cancellation if you are not checked in and at the departure gate at least 15 minutes prior to departure.
 
DAYGS
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:58 pm

In addition to the above post immediately above, airlines are required to call another airline direct on the day of departure to confirm space. It can only be booked through the CRS if they've called to see if space is truly available. This is because the availability may be out of sync between the various systems. It's possible the US agent didn't follow procedure when booking you.
 
Iberia340600
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:57 pm

US Airways is at fault. It is AA's policy to close check-in 15 minutes prior to departure. They are not going to be responsible for US's wrongdoing. Basically US was just trying to get "rid" of you and it backfired. Although US may have been able to book a reservation for you....AA's flight may have already been full...regardless of the fact that it was already too late to accomodate you on the flight.
Visca Barça!!
 
n9801f
Posts: 154
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:09 am

AA probably has a legitimate out. Airlines used to have 'freesale agreements' which defined terms for how they could book each others' seats. The way I think they work is that for a late booking like yours (within 4 hours, say) US must call AA in order for it to be a legitimate booking.

If the above is true, AA owes you nothing.

US seems to owe you at least an apology for the aggravation. (They got you there in the end, so they shouldn't pay DBC - denied boarding compensation.) At a minimum, it would be courteous to offer you a $25 or $50 travel credit. There are lots of alternatives to US, so they should try hard to please customers...
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:27 am

How does American have a legitimate out...here's what happened, from the SABRE records:

7:55 AM: Attempted to book US 1452, CLTORD, AA 559 ORDIAH in first, could not confirm AA559

8:13 AM: Attempted to book US 1242, CLTDFW, CO 2524 DFWIAH, could not get me on 1242 due to being past departure

8:15 AM: Attempted to book AA 659 CLTDFW, CO 2524 DFWIAH

8:17 AM: CONFIRMED on AA 659 CLTDFW, CO 2524 DFWIAH

I made it to gate within about 3 minutes (unfortunately, SABRE does not have a GPS monitor on me, and quite frankly, I'd be really scared if they did), and was denied boarding. US has done their job, as far as I am concerned. The DBC from US Airways was more than fair, even excessive in my opinion, although that is why I will continue to have them as my preferred carrier, as long as they don't go the way of Braniff, Eastern, and Pan Am. However, I still feel like American owes me something, after all, I was technically involuntarily denied boarding on AA659, even if I got to Houston three hours before AA659/CO2524 would have.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
bucky707
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:37 am

The bottom line is who sold you the ticket? That is who's responsible.
 
Cactus739
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:40 am

Well, unless SABRE can show that your rear was in that seat at the AA REQUIRED 15 minutes before departure, then you don't have a leg to stand on (or a seat to sit in so to speak).

Call AA. Tell them your preferred carrier booked you on one of their flights within 15 minutes before departure and you were denied boarding. See what (if anything) they offer you. If anything, they just need to tweak the SABRE coding to not allow bookings that close to departure.
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
slvrblt
Posts: 287
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:47 am

SHUPirate - We don't owe you anything.

Ridiculous, really, for US to rebook a customer on another airline 11 minutes prior to departure. That's doomed to fail.

Procedurally, when involuntarily rerouting a customer to another carrier, the new receiving carrier has to be called on the phone, you don't just book a seat in the computer and tell the customer, "you're all set, have a nice day."

As stated above, all reservations are null and void if you haven't checked in and are at the gate 15 minutes prior to departure. At that time, the AA agents are dropping unused reserved seats and clearing standbys. Your chances of getting on at this point were slim to none unless it was a completely empty flight.

Why do you feel AA owes you something - ?  Confused You weren't our customer, you bought a ticket on another airline. They felt they couldn't accomodate you and sent you over to us, literally at the last possible minute. Assuming no one was rude to you, sounds like we did a good job by our customers.  Big grin
..everything works out in the end.
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:47 am

Stop being greedy and go on your way. AA does not owe you anything. US only owed you an apology, yet you got a free ticket as well. Be happy and thankful that you got some compensation
 
jkudall
Posts: 389
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:19 am

You were not denied boarding by AA if US booked you 11 minutes before AA's departure time. That was a big no no on US Airways' part. Unless they talked to the gate agent from AA on the phone to get permission, they should not have done that. The US Airways agent obviously didn't follow correct procedures in getting you rebooked on another airline.

AA definately didn't do anything wrong, but US Airways did mess up.

You are lucky that you got to keep your compensation from US. Especially when you ended up getting on the flight you were originally booked on. Sounds like you came out a winner.
 
AIR757200
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:28 am


However, I still feel like American owes me something, after all, I was technically involuntarily denied boarding on AA659,

To put it bluntly, you were not an AA passenger. So, let's say you ended up boarding that flight and then it ended up cancelling.. do you know what would happened next? They would send you back to US Airways!

End of story.
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:22 pm

Here's the pertinent SABRE line, which shows I was a confirmed passenger:

A3S SSR TKNE AA HK1 (Held and Konfirmed (sic)) CLTDFW0659Y27DEC/(number deleted for privacy reasons)

A3S SSR TKNE CO HK1 (again, Held and Konfirmed (sic)) DFWIAH2524Y27DEC/(number deleted for privacy reasons)
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:05 pm

why would American accept my reissue eleven minutes prior to departure, and then deny me boarding without so much of a look at the passenger manifest to see if I was supposed to be on the plane?

Because AA's computer reservation system was accepting STANDBY reservations at the time US "booked" you on the AA flight... STANDBY. That system did not know what the gate agents knew when you got there... you, as an OTHER AIRLINE CUSTOMER STANDBY passenger were not going to get on the plane... so they told you that information when you checked in. The only way US could have "guaranteed" you a seat on the AA flight was if US purchased a last minute full-fare ticket on that AA flight. Anything else will be a standby (space available) basis [boarding priorities may very, but AA revenue passengers will always go first].

what do people that actually work for American think about this "issue"?

You want some "consideration" from AA, then buy an AA ticket. [how's that?]  Laugh out loud
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
jkudall
Posts: 389
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:17 pm

You aren't getting the point. US should not have booked you on that flight that soon before departure. Just because your reservation says you were HK'd doesn't mean anything. I can HK somone on a flight 2 seconds before scheduled departure time if I wanted to. That doesn't mean policy allows it though.

Honestly, you really aren't entitled to anything but an apology from US for wasting 20 minutes of your life walking between a couple concourses.
 
aa777flyer
Posts: 1017
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:01 am

Shupirate-

Bottom line AA owes you NOTHING. As stated previous, unless US called AA diectly to get the OK to put you on the flight, you are owed NOTHING. More than likely the flight was overbooked, but authorized to sell more, and US just booked from availability. When you arrived at the gate they had already accomodated all passengers that AA needed to. I would have sent you back to US to.
Oh and one other thing. I would use that Free US ticket SOON!
The TSA was created to make the post office look efficient!
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:26 am

They hadn't accomodated all of AA's passengers that they needed to. The flight was, at the time of boarding, undersold by seven. Four of those had confirmed reservations, but no seat assignments, and three others were cleared from the standby list after I had gotten to the gate. I agree that what US Airways did was somewhere between extremely generous and excessive. However, American confirmed my seat and then denied me boarding without the gate agent doing so much as asking for my name so she could check the computer. As a result, I should be entitled to compensation as an involuntarily denied boarding passenger, and I'm probably being nice by only asking for 10 separate non-combinable vouchers of $48.25 each (each voucher being 5% of the one-way full Y fare). Like I've said, I'm asking for vouchers because I feel this was one American Airlines agents' error, not the error of the entire company that all of them would make, and as a result, I am WILLING to fly American again. I don't suppose there is any good reason for me to ask for vouchers (not cash, I stress) if I'm not going to use them.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
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RE: Who's Fault: US Airways Or American?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:48 am

SHUPirate, at some point you have to realize that you're wrong, not owed anything and not going to get anything. It doesn't matter that US confirmed you at all in the CRS. AA's OWN CSRs are precluded from making changes as everything is under airport control within two hours of departure IIRC. How much chaos would ensue if the gate agents could be overridden by someone else making changes while they were boarding??

When the plane is boarding, the GA is g-d... and no one fiddling with Sabre can change that. Any frequent traveller knows that. If the GA doesn't want you on that flight, you're not going. The GA may be wrong and may be reprimanded later but you're at their mercy as they hold all the cards. So US' would've had to CALL THE AA GATE and get their approval. The SABRE booking is worth nothing more than the paper it's printed on.

Feel free to write letters and call AA customer service all you wish. You'll only be wasting two peoples time... your own and the AA CSR. At the end of the day you'll end up with exactly what you are "entitled" to... nothing.

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