Qantasclub
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AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:33 pm


http://www.airlinequality.com/news/231204-iberia.htm

Totally agree with this editorial. Alliances are all about connections, but just as importantly, consistency of product. There should be a minimum standard, but these carriers have fallen beyond that a long time ago.

Long Haul is the only way to go
 
aerlingus330
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:39 pm

If you have forgotten...the point of an airline alliance isnt only to help the costumer and have better connections, its also to help airlines.

Oneworld Alliance is HELPING Aer Lingus and Iberia...These airlines are in a down peroid at the moment, but will pull up with the HELP of Oneworld...

regards
aerlingus330
Aer Lingus Airbus A330-300
 
Southamerica
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:57 pm

The main point of the topic is arguable, but...


The point of an airline alliance isnt only to help the costumer and have better connections, its also to help airlines.


What? It seems you are mistaken between a charity program and businesses. In alliances, airline members participate in an [mostly] equal give-receive situation; even under that many companies have had entire histories of "cheating" on their partners within alliances.


Iberia...These airlines are in a down period at the moment, but will pull up with the HELP of Oneworld...


Would you care to explain exactly in what is this IB situation you are talking about? [forget about service - subjective thing] I'm anxious to hear about that...  Yeah sure





SOUTHAMERICA

[Edited 2004-12-30 06:59:01]
 
EZEIZA
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:42 pm

"Iberia...These airlines are in a down period at the moment, but will pull up with the HELP of Oneworld."

Actually IB is doing very well regardless of Oneworld
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
a340-600
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:15 pm

Iberia is one of the most profitable airline in Europe.
I don't understand the down period for Iberia Aerlingus330. Are you sure that you are not thinking about another airline?
 
MEA-707
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:21 pm

OK it's probably because Iberia and Aer Lingus don't have free meals on regional flights. But American doesn't have either, from next years on even on 6 hour transcontinentals, flights of a length in which Iberia and Aer Lingus would still feed you and give free booze. So should American be kicked out as well?
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
a340-600
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:27 pm

Two economy class should exist  Smile with meal / without meal.

I have used Iberia last summer, that's true that Cabin Crew are not kind/helpfull... and they can only improve. But to pay 100€ to fly Paris-Valencia instead of 300€ with Air France was nice. Aircraft cabin was nice and seats confortable.
 
wgw2707
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:09 pm

With all due respect, I think you're all rather off the mark here.

Aer Lingus first of all probably will leave oneworld, as it contributes little to the alliance and British Airways and the other European partners are increasingly agitated by the blatant LCC-type marketing and pricing strategies the airline is using.

Iberia on the other hand contributes enormous benefits to the oneworld alliance. While Iberia's coach class product is definitely subpar, remember, they do have a business and first class product that are competitive. Their first class actually features elegant, luxurious sleeper seats on a par with those offered by other alliance members. Iberia's route network furthermore is a tremendous asset to oneworld. With Iberia, American Airlines and LAN as members, oneworld is clearly the alliance of choice when it comes to Latin American connections. Take away Iberia, and you suddenly have a much weaker competitive position. Also, while Aer Lingus is largely superlative as an addition to the combined route network, if you were to take away Iberia you'd suddenly see a much less useful European route network resting on the strength of the London hub only, as Helsinki is too geographically isolated to serve as an efficient alliance hub for the largest intra-European markets.

Also, remember, Iberia's service is not that much worse than American's. AA under the incompetent management of Gerald Arpey continues to allow their product differentiation slide through constant, pointless cutbacks in service. While AA unquestionably is superior to Iberia, the margin of superiority is waning, with the elimination of MRTC, cutbacks in meal service, et cetera.

So taking a step back, by the standard argued here, oneworld would have to change radically. In addition to Aer Lingus and Iberia, if one was to exclude all airlines from the alliance that have sub-optimal service you'd also have to axe AA (for reasons mentioned above) and QANTAS, the latter of which has allowed their product quality to become erratic following the failure of Ansett. That would leave you with an alliance consisting of British Airways, Finnair, Cathay Pacific and LAN, in short, not much of an alliance.

-WGW2707
 
TBCITDG
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:47 pm

Since when does IB have a First class product?? I thought that they got rid of it since it was not really a money maker??
 
a340-600
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:53 pm

What a such big explanation to say that Iberia has an important place in the alliance with South America market.

You really think that :
as Helsinki is too geographically isolated to serve as an efficient alliance hub for the largest intra-European markets.
because you think that Madrid and Barcelone are well located for intra-European markets?
The best location for intra-European flights are not :
FRA/AMS/CDG/GVA/ZRH?

The other point that I don't understand :
With all due respect, I think you're all rather off the mark here.
What was wrong(except Aerlingus330 sorry)?
 
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Flying Belgian
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:55 pm

@ QantasClub:

I already mentioned this problem in this thread:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1880665/6/


FB.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
alpere1
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:01 pm

So far, IB has First class product in most of their intercontinental routes
Soon they will get rid of it for a new business-first class, a smart move IMHO
IB is one of the most profitable airline in Europe right now, a well-run business, efficient, with an extensive route network. Along with it's partners BA and AA, they make the hardcore of the Oneworld alliance.
 
TBCITDG
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:09 pm

You think that IB has more importance in the OneWorld family than CX or QF?? I strongly beg to differ.
CX is the only Asian carrier in the alliance and as a result, to loose them would be a great loss for OW.
QF has a firm grip on the US-Australia/Pacific market along with excellent feeder traffic for BA,CX,LA (Both in Australia and abroad).
Personally I think that IB can be replaced. Highly unlikely, but they can. BA is the essential link in Europe, AA in the states, LA in South America, CX in Asia and QF in the pacific. Loose one of these carriers, and the alliance would certainly be missing something.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:29 pm


Along with it's partners BA and AA, they make the hardcore of the Oneworld alliance.


Hmmm. I don't think so. I would say BA,AA, and CX are the core.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
Qantasclub
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:38 pm


WGW2707,

I agree that Iberia has extensive route strength in south America and this is it's ONLY contribution to Oneworld.
We clearly differ on opinions regarding the standards of inflight service. I honestly don't see any difference between AA and IB in terms of service or product-both are equally bad.
However, your comparison of Qantas to AA (gasp!) and also your suggestion that it's service has declined since Ansett collapsed could not be further from the truth. Here's why:
I will be the first to admit that the service at Qantas is not THE best in the world, but it is definedtly comparable to BA and just behind SQ and CX, but clearly streets ahead of any US carrier. How can you compare a carrier that has fully installed flat beds in F and J class, PTVs in Y, gourmet chef designed meals in all classes, a generous inflight amenity bag even in Y, overall very friendly and professional cabin service (all of which have appeared AFTER the collapse of Ansett) to AA? Not in the same league, sorry.

The bottom line is, Iberia (and by implication AA since they tend to offer the same WALMART style service) and Aer Lingus have lowered the overall product standards at Oneworld and if not for their route contributions, should be expelled.


Long Haul is the only way to go
 
wgw2707
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:42 pm

Of course Qantasclub if you do ban Iberia and Aer Lingus it's only logical to remove AA (and in my opinion, QF) as well. If you do that, what's left of the alliance? Just a few super-premium carriers and one behemoth.

Also, it should be noted that both American and United offer fully flat beds in first class, and AA as far as I know has PTVs on some of their long haul aircraft, so you really can't fault the US airlines in that regard. Furthermore, remember, many passengers actually dislike PTVs, so that is not a universal attraction by any means.

-WGW2707
 
bazzaldonbond
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:54 pm

Aerlingus doesnt need one world as its a joke in itself BA have huge prices for flights AA have poor service CX is only useful if your going to the east .In this current market customers want the best bang for there buck and in Ireland that means cheap AIRFARES i.e. sub 350 euros to the states sub 100 euros around europe and you simply cannot get that with AA or BA at the moment.Aerlingus are making a profit and the customers are voting with there feet they are flying with EI .If Aerlingus was kicked out tomorrow i dont think they would lose too much sleep.The LCC works for them and look around the rest of the world how many other carriers are reducing costs and dropping this and that from there inflight service or starting up a lost cost arm.This buisness is like any other the aim of each carrier is to make a profit Aerlingus is doing that.
 
IberiaN
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:59 pm

Dear TBCITDG and Qantasclub,
I can't understand your point of view. First of all, Does IB only help Oneworld with its Southamerican flights? I COULDN'T DISAGREE MORE. What about IB's codeshares with AA, BA, LAN, Finnair and Cathay Pacific in flights all over Spain and Europe? What about connections to AMS helping Cathay Pacific to take its passengers to Spain? And BA's flights to South and Central America? And also codeshares with BA MAD-LHR? What About AA JFK/ORD/MIA-MAD IB codeshare flights?. Finally, I wonder if Qantas helps OW so much as IB does.
Thanks
Emilio
Has decidido puntualidad, has decidido Iberia ;)
 
TACAA320
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:06 pm

IB is and will be successful [and profitable] inside or outside OW.

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:12 pm

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
Arcano
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:01 pm

Two economy class should exist with meal / without meal.

Hi
A340! You know Lan Chile did that in the mid 80s (as well as Ladeco at the same time); they offered a super cheap fare for economy if you accepted to seat in the back of the cabin and take no meals... You could save up to 50% of the price... The result? a total failure, the people felt it was very bad idea, bad taste to make such an "outrageous" discrimination in the same cabin. Both airlines stopped that a couple of months after the beggining.


What about IB's codeshares with AA, BA, LAN, Finnair and Cathay Pacific in flights all over Spain and Europe?
Hi Iberia N: Although I don't think IB should be out of OW, your argument does not sustent an airline for belonging to an alliance; There are many code-shares between airlines not mambers of the same alliance, as AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ-AA; LA-KE; LA-AM; etc.

As for the main topic, it's true, complaints about IB and AA and their service are oftenly heard, but what the alliance wins by having them is much better than getting rid of them, with the connections and network enhance effect it brings...
And not sure about Air Lingus, but Iberia does have excellent conections and partnership with LA and AA, which would take a while before fully replacement...

Regards )( Arcano
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NumberTwelve
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:03 pm

WGW2707: you would ban QF from oneworld when banning IB and EI?
can you explain me, why?
Network or standard?

If network, MAYBE you are right, but if standard - why banning QF? I would agree that AA has to be banned then.
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Marara
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:17 pm

While i dont want to get into which airline is more important to OW. I would like to point a few things out to IberiaN.

BA codeshare on QFs services to all Australian Capitals. They have a JSA agreement on the Kangaroo Route which provides both BA and QF a large amount of feed in their respective markets.

QFs has a strong hold on the AU-US route, AA has its code on all of these routes. AA and QF are very close -> QF taking up AAs 73H slots instead of teh UA320s it was very interested in.

QF has codeshares on AY's HEL flights, LA's SCL, CX's ROM and hundreds of BA and AA flights from their hubs.

Just because QF does not work very closely with IB doesnt mean it is not a important member of OW.
I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
 
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Flying Belgian
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:36 pm

IMO, IB has a contribution to OneWorld with its extensive and excellent network in South America. It's also a major player in Southern Europe, much stronger than AZ is for instance.

IB would just need to make that little effort to improve its staff friendliness... That's all people seem to ask. But one can't rule IB out...

As far as EI is concerned, it's in a very weak position with BA across.

The rest of the debate (AA, QF,...) is pure useless wind.

FB.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
BMED
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:41 pm

Well, aer lingus should have kept a couple of rows of business class seats and reduced their fares for them. A national carrier that's all low cost is a shame. If ryanair ever introduce transatlantic flights then air lingus will disappear.
I've never understood why aer lingus don't fly to Asia even if it's via LHR. I'm sure that the Irish would like to fly the whole way with their own carrier instead of a foreign one?
Living the jetset life! No better way to be
 
Iberia340600
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:11 am

All I can really do is laugh. Not at this thread, but at that website Airlinequality and Skytrax. I brought the other news article about Iberia to the attention of upper management and nobody has even heard of these people. Who is Skytrax? What do they base their information on? I e-mailed Airlinequality to get some information as to where they get their supposed "facts and figures" and only recieved a nasty response from them in return without stating any facts. The website is a joke.

Anyways, regarding IB and EI, neither are going anywhere. EI is staying in Oneworld, although it can be said its presence is not as great, it is still an asset to have. I believe Oneworld as a whole contributes more given that there is not so much overlapping as with the other alliances. We could go on and on about IB's service, etc....but really it has been discussed to death on here. IB has been improving its service and I disagree wholeheartedly with the statement from "Skytrax" saying that most senior flight attendants on long haul. Yes....most of them are, but the next time you take a flight on an IB A340, tell me how many "old" flight attendants you actually see. In the last few flights I have taken, there are less and less. Yes...they are retiring!!!! Thankfully the younger crewmembers are taking their place. The last longhaul flight I took with IB I would have to say that the average age of all the flight attendants was around 30.

Now, if anyone can give me ANY information as to where "Airlinequality" gets their supposed "facts" I would greatly appreciate it.
Visca Barça!!
 
AA767400
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:47 am

In order of service, I would say that it would go like this, from worst to best.

EI
IB
AA
AY
LA
BA
QF
CX

Aer lingus, has gone down all the way in terms of service. TransAtlantic is a joke, and inter-European is LCC all the way. Food on transatlantic flights are unreal. Aer lingus, in my opinion is a Oneworld member we can do without. And I am sure they can say the same.

Iberia airlines of Spain......Well, I am not going to start the all mighty "Iberia service stinks" thread. IB, has a good route network, with good connections. Inflight service is something that I can do without. Very mediocre.

American......Good ole AA, You got to love them. While they are a very important Oneworld member, they do lack amenities which other major airlines in the world offer. They are more helpful in my experience than IB, and EI. Service is bland, or non-existent, but at least they are helpful and courtesy. Unlike the members before this one.

Finnair is Finnland! AY, is a very good product all around. The only reason I put them in this rank, is because of there route network and not because of their service, which is excellent!

Lineas Aereas Nacionals, or Latin American Network, is a key player in Latin America, linking Latin America with Europe,North America, and Oceania. It is the only airline I have not flown in Oneworld, which in turn I put in front of AY, due to their network, and over all role.

The world's favorite airline! But because of it's size, is not all around the favorite of the world. Over all presence is here, with all the routes and Heathrow as the prime Oneworld location. Service is good, but then again it depends on the flight you encounter. You will get a nut or two, depending on your luck. This is due to the size of this monster, you can't expect perfection.

The spirit of Australia! Says it all, from the moment you board a QF plane, you know you are downunder. Great service provided on every leg, and every phase of you journey from check-in, to bagclaim. QF, plays a huge role in Oneworld, not as big as BA. But, What they lack at Heathrow, they make up for in service and reliability.

Marco Polo style all the way! CX, Has a major role as well in Oneworld with it's HKG hub. CX, offers a excellent service onboard it's aircraft, which really comes out with it's staff. It also offers great amenities onboard. They are numero uno for me, because they offer everything, and more than all the others From A to Z.

And in conclusion, I find that EI, should go. IB, I don't even know why it was mentioned. EI, has proven that a alliance is not for them right now.
"The low fares airline."
 
RCS763AV
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:02 am

IB out of OW???? Then who would feed the Euro network from Latin America....BA with their pathetic 3x weekly flights and horrid schedule!
 
luisde8cd
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Onew

Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:08 am

OW can survive without Air Lingus, but I cannot say the same without IB.
 
a340-600
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:33 am

Effectivement Olivier, j'ai lu aussi qu'IBERIA allait mal, alors qu'ils ont fait un super coef de remplissage, je ne comprends pas, (Eric PARIS 11)

I'm not sure that's the best place to write in French but I would be interested to know where you have seen that IB is in trouble. I'm almost sure that I have heard one or two months ago that they were very profitable.
 
Icaro
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:52 am

Hi all,

I think IB is not in OW because of our service, but because of our flights. We have a great network to Latinamerica that nobody else can offer right now and we help our partners to feed their aircraft and they help us to feed ours. That is what an alliance is for, and OW works well in that matter.

Now, it is true that a bigger product consistence should be achieved. A client should expect the same level of service through different carriers in the same alliance. But each carrier competes in a different environment.

We at IB need to reduce costs because we are being hit by so many LCC's, but to a point that it doesn't harm our high-yield pax. This is starting to show: our B/C in intraeuropean flights is now 4 pax per row, not 5 as it has been for the past two years. Our management have realized till which point they can reduce costs.

I think the next movement would be to implement a three class service in Europe. B/C, full Y/C and OW travelers, and finally no frills Y/C. That would be fair for everyone. But, main problem, as usual: COST. It means more F/A's per flight, and once we have been reduced to the minimum legal, I don't think they will go back to more.

Hope it helps
 
cxsjr
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:05 am

Maybe it's because I normally book in the cheapest class but rarely has any codeshare/alliance been a benefit to me.

I've tried to check-in for a JA ticketed flight (op' by NZ) at the NZ check-in desk and got told to go to the JA check-in .... yet I tried to check-in for an IB ticketed flight (op' by BA) at the IB check-in and they sent me to the BA check-in!

I tried to utilise BA to track my luggage lost by between BA & IB (as IB don't have a missing baggage call centre in this country) and BA said because IB issued the ticket, they couldn't assist.

We, the enthusiasts, probably understand the concept of alliances but what about the man in the street?

I personally believe that, unless you're sitting 'up front' collecting 000's of FF miles and utilising pre-flight lounges, alliances are a waste of time!
The world is a book, those who do not travel read only one page ....
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:15 am

IB is not going anywhere...remember that BA and IB are getting closer and closer working togther (merge anyone?!?). As mentioned, if IB goes because of service, AA has to go to. I frankly find them both to be efficient when it comes to getting from point A to B (or C), but i am not unhappy with them in general. If i paid for the ticket, i want low fares and the miles that can take me around the world with the OW alliance. If the company is paying and I fly business class, their service is good enough for me (without comparing) and because the company is paying, i dont care much.

I considered LA, CX, BA and QF to be in the same level when it comes to service, although BA and CX do excel. I have not flown EI, but considering their new LCC strategy, maybe it would be better for them to leave. I figuere that JL has not joined any alliance because code-shares work just fine for them and can avoid the alliance fees and costs. FOr the same reason, I think EI could do without OW.

I wonder if the new all coach service BOS-SNN on AA is a direct response to the new EI LCC approach or is it because they expecpt EI to leave soon and AA needs to cover the market?
 
rossyboy
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:38 am

I don't care what the article says- these airlines have every right to be in Oneworld...if you wanted to kick someone out of an alliance, try American or Delta instead. I am not saying that Aer Lingus is the best (making you pay for your food has sunk it to the level of Ryanair) but kicking them out on the grounds of service is absolutely unacceptable.

Yours truly  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Ross X
 
PDPsol
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:41 am

A340-600,

You are correct, while everyone appears to be completely obsessed with IB's inflight service, the real story here should be the carrier's stupendous profitability and financial condition.

At its current trading level of EUR 2.55/share, IB has a market capitalization of EUR 2,390 million, or USD 3,251 million! This compares to AA's market capitalization of USD 1,748 million, CO's of USD 907 million and DL's of 972 million.

Shareholders have done very well investing in IB stock; its share price has appreciated over 110% since its IPO in March 2001!! All this in the midst of the most traumatic financial crisis the commercial aviation sector has ever seen in its existence!

IB has generated EUR 200 million of NET INCOME in the last twelve months (LTM) period to September 30, 2004. This is absolutely incredible considering the substantial losses incurred by its peers.

IB has a over EUR 1,400 million of available cash, more than enough to cover all its long-term debt of EUR 430 million and EUR 113 million of short-term debt.

IB has a clearly-articulated strategic plan to continue improving its financial performance and commercial growth. The carrier has enhanced its operating efficiency tremendously, simplified its operations and grown its commercial frachise substantially, especially to Latin America.

All in all, IB has performed exceptionally well in an operating environment littered with financial disasters.

PDPsol
 
JOSEMEX
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:06 am

>The last longhaul flight I took with IB I would have to say that the average age of all the flight attendants was around 30<

Oh, there you go, Fede! So that´s why on-board service is so disastrous: their A340's are now staffed with kids!!!  Wink/being sarcastic  Wink/being sarcastic
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Onew

Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:27 am

hey

My dad was really upset that since he flew AA and wanted to transfer his miles to his Iberia Plus card, and American woud not let them, they told him that IB and AA have no conection!

What is that sopposed to mean!?!?
No Vueling No Party
 
HAVIK747
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 6:46 am

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:29 am

Don't forget AA is charging for meals in the Y cabin across the USA ... so though not a low fare carrier as Aer Lingus is adopting or the or the poor IB service (just flew MAD-JFK- absolutly miserable and I am One World Emerald) ..IB and EI should stay ...hopefully BA partial ownership of IB will change there horribel ground, air service, attitude and flithy planes.
 
IberiaN
Posts: 163
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 6:41 am

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Onew

Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:01 am

As always, the fool of everything goes to IB. And what about AA's service?
Apart from that, Havik747,
hopefully BA partial ownership of IB will change there horrible ground, air service, attitude and flithy planes
Does it refer to IB or BA? If its referred to IB, just say that it operates one of the most modern fleets in Europe, considering that their old 747s are leaving on 2005 and 3 new A346s are going to be received in January February and September/October 2005. In addition 20 new A320 family aircraft are going to be delivered, while old MD87s/88s are leaving IB soon.
About ground staff... Is BA's staff so good too? hmmm didn't know it, but I don't think so. Just because they are English they only speak English! What about Spanish/French/German ets knowledge? At least every IB F/A is required to speak a second language, and if they don't, they try to do as best as possible and a record in the language of the destination country is played. But I have to recognize that most Spaniards have difficulties at pronunciation, as other foreign people could have.
Emilio
Has decidido puntualidad, has decidido Iberia ;)
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:07 am

 Angry HERE WE GOOOOOOOOO AGAIN! Arguing over what an AIRLINE SERVES! If people don't like it THEN DON'T FLY THE AIRLINE! EVERY airline has cut back to survive and once again due to Low Cost Carriers, fuel prices, and the diminishing cost of flying over all.... If you don't like the economy service you get for the cheap fairs you pay dish out the money for a first/business seat. I am tired of these news articles bashing what airlines "once serviced".....

I think what the airlines should do is try a first/economy plus/ and then coach. First remaining as is, economy plus with 33" of leg room more comfortable seats but in the same coach style and with a regular coach meal. These seats should only be used for elites and full fair passengers. Coach should be the cheapest available seats, no head rests, 29" of legs room and the only thing offered with out paying is coffee,tea, and water. Meals, sodas and juices should be paid for. People want the absolute lowest prices fine you then fly coach with nothing! You want full comfort and amenities pay a full Y fair and you will get it. You want First Class with all the amenities, and everything free.... I think everyone gets the point!  Nuts
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:21 am

IB will not leave OW. They know that IB has the best LatAm network and connecting flights compared to any European carrier.

If the in flight service is a problem, other will be kick out first... Guess which one...  Big grin
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:29 am

IB shouldn't be kicked out. Their network is just too valuable. But EI should really think about if they still want to be lagacy carrier or not. Anf if they come to the conlcusion that they don't want to maintain a business class, lounges etc. then they should leave Oneworld.
The only problem for One without EI is the route DUB-LHR which is only served by EI so far. But if EI really want to become a locost, an operation at LHR is not appropriate for them anymore and they should trade their slots for some at GTW.
 
slvrblt
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:19 pm

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:39 am

Annoyedfa -

I have to agree with your comments here. Customers have spoken - the bottom line for their choosing an airline is PRICE. Period.

OK, fine - but then accept you get what you pay for. Mindset is, for the cheapest fare possible, the customer wants every amenity possible. Doesn't work that way, folks.

I do agree that on international flights, service levels should be differentiated but even then, I'm thinking only on the long hauls.Though the LCC's haven't really infected the international scene yet, fares are pretty darn low here as well.

Yet, one hears this bleating about food, and PTV's on flights, particularly in the US. Give it a rest. You didn't pay for pampering, the market has spoken. You want to get from point A to point B as inexpensively as possible. What you deserve is being on-time, and courtesy and competency from staff, but beyond that, I have no sympathy for these complaints.

Folks- what did you do before PTV's?? You read a book ( yes, used your mind) or watched the inflight movie, if it was a long enough domestic flight.

You can't stand to be without your cell phone or some other form of entertainment at every single moment?

Puh-lease.
..everything works out in the end.
 
anxebla
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:31 am

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:39 am

Qantasclub... How boring you are with this monthly anti-IB threads. All people here Know you dislike IB a lot, and I respect that... but I think is not necessary at all starting an anti-IB thread every month to enjoy yourself. I agree with Annoyedfa.

IB is key in OneWorld, and also I think EI will go on like a member within the alliance. OW is a fine alliance, but with less than 10 airlines members OW caN'T losing 1 or 2 airlines... That's a real luxury which OW can't afford.

About Skytrax... They are a joke, and I do agree with Iberia340600 (reply nº 25)

And don't forget an important thing:OW does need more IB, than IB could need OW. About EI, they are not the best carrier, but I prefer by far, EI over FR or another LCC. I've flown EI last summer to/from DUB and I must saying they are just average but also I must saying EI is not the worst airline flown by me.
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
howard500
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:28 am

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:54 am

PDPsol you said it!

Anyhow,

Frankly I think that within airline alliances, network size and effectiveness comes before service quality among its members. Personally, I would prefer it to be otherwise, but we have to accept reality....

Iberia is a fine asset for Oneworld, and we cant really say which is better for the alliance, Quantas or Iberia. In terms of service we could, but not in terms of practical business sense. Iberia serves Latin America, Quantas serves Australia/Asia. They are completely different markets. The real question is which market is better, Australia/Asia or Latin America and since this question really makes no sense, because Oneworld covers both, there really is no discussion. Quantas could not survive with Iberia quality standards because it operates in a very quality oriented market, while Iberia can get away with average service because its market competitors in Latin America do not pose a threat in this sense.

Realistically, we have to accept that Iberia's plan works, and they make a beautiful profit at the end of the year. They fill the aircraft up, so who really cares if its not top notch in costumer service....

Personally I think the "bad quality image" that Iberia gives out is harmful for the airline in the long term sense because if, one day, it decides to enter quality driven markets it will have a hard time "re-establishing" itself as a "quality-first" carrier.

Anyway, happy new year!  Smile
advice is a form of nostalgia
 
Iberia340600
Posts: 758
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:57 am

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:11 am

Oh, there you go, Fede! So that´s why on-board service is so disastrous: their A340's are now staffed with kids!!!

Jose...I cant win cant I! If they are old...its because they are too old...now they are too young!! JA JA JA!  Big thumbs up

Anyways....Que tengas un Feliz Año Nuevo!!! Thats Happy New Years for all the non-spanish speakers!!

Hopefully we can enjoy a lot more of these "heated" discussions in 2005! + or - a few airlines!  Wink/being sarcastic
Visca Barça!!
 
ei2ksea
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:17 pm

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:02 am

I suppose the concept of an alliance ultimately whatever about 'serving the customer' or similar marketing words, is to benefit the company bottom line through enhancing the premium product or connections making the carriers more attractive to customers as well as generating loyalty. In this regard Aer Lingus has not added anything to OneWorld and likewise it has received very little in return - worldwide connections to the east where the only EI element is usually Ireland-LHR. The AA link i'm sure has been positive but Aer Lingus could just as easily have this relationship with Delta as they did previously before Skyteam or OneWorld. I sincerely believe that the Irish market has a business volume which is too small to make a QF style premium product work. Due to the Ryanair effect from 1984, the Irish market has a heavy loco orientation an EI simply had to change.

Its all very well to say its a shame that EI has gone loco or IB has lost its edge or AA makes you pay for dinner nowadays (as we all know practically all US majors do nowadays), but come along kids, these companies have to make money. Post 9-11 Aer Lingus was given a few months to live, this year they will post profits of over EUR90million through changing to the loco way. Access wise they have launched 45 new routes in 2 years. Thats quite a change. And lets remember, EI have kept their (albeit crappy) business product on major business routes such as AMS, FRA, BRU, CDG and LHR.

EI management suggested the company would leave OneWorld at the end of 2004 however recently rumour has been that the OneWorld partners did not want to lose EI just yet and so they will remain for the foreseeable future - why this is(?) - i don't know but i'm sure BA, AA, CX and QF - 'the big boys' would have they're reasons for not turfing them out if standards were really so 'bad'. With new management team being implemented at the moment, it may be that EI will re-introduce C class on all EU routes soon.

Regards
Ph
Next Flight: DUB-BOS (EI), BOS-DEN-PDX (SWA), SEA-BOS (AS)
 
aussie747
Posts: 1005
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:15 pm

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:15 am

The real question should be about getting JL into One world, not whether we should be kicking out anybody.

To stay true though the alliance should be consisting on full service airlines. The idea of the alliance is so that all airlines can complement each other. With EI pruning itself to a low cost carrier and AA cutting costs so that is offers no meals on any domestic service is harldy complementing the full service standards of BA/CX/QF.
 
Qantasclub
Topic Author
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:48 pm

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:51 am


Iberia340600: re: "Now, if anyone can give me ANY information as to where "Airlinequality" gets their supposed "facts" I would greatly appreciate it"

Uh...try over 5 million responders to their surveys, ie: the flying public..the people who actually buy tickets and keep the airline industry running. The reason they didn't respond to your query is because it's a stupid question which is more than bleeding obvious if you check out their website. I agree that it's not the Bible of inflight service, but you can get a pretty accurate idea of what kind of product each carrier offers.

SLVRBRT: re: "Customers have spoken - the bottom line for their choosing an airline is PRICE. Period"
That may be how you choose your carrier, but on the contrary, I, and many others, especially for long haul travel will select a carrier based on quality. You are right in saying that you get what you pay for and I think Howard500 really hit the nail on the head by saying that Iberia gets away with it (s opposed to Qantas who have CX and SQ right in their neighbourhood) because if the lack of quality competition into and out of sth America.

Both Qantas ad Iberia contribute to the Oneworld network invaluably and I don't think you can say routing-wise which is more imortant to Oneworld.
I think that for now, it is clear that Oneworld needs the network connections Iberia offers, and this currently will take priority over it's universally acknowledged crappy service. Sure, it's profitable and financially stable, but this has come at the cost of significant cutbacks as we already discussed.
When you compare Oneworld to Star, for instance, Star has an even MORE heterogenous group of airlines with an even greater inconsistency in service levels, and they don't seem too concerned about it.

So for now, size and quantity/critical mass seems to rule over quality and excellence, and that was exactly the point I was trying to make with this thread. I like Skytrax because this is what the website endeavours to do...encourage better service and slap carriers over the wrist for slipping standards. Quality control. It's not ALL about profitability. Do you remember the days where SQ was the best airline in the world and their were reknowned for their inflight service? Well, what happened as a result was that SE asia now enjoys the highest concentration of the best (and profitable) carriers to compete with each other. CX, MH, TG to name a few. I have no doubt that the product and service enhancements at Qantas are entirely a response to this competitive environment, and guess what...all these airlines are largely also profitable.

And lastly..I love PTVs! Those who say they are not needed..well, simply a case of sour grapes.

have a happy new year everyone! ( I must say, I'm feeling rather flat in view of the sheer devastation from the Tsunamis-it seems inappropriate to celebrate)

Qantasclub

Long Haul is the only way to go
 
Iberia340600
Posts: 758
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:57 am

RE: AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:30 pm

Qantasclub:
Uh...try over 5 million responders to their surveys, ie: the flying public..the people who actually buy tickets and keep the airline industry running. The reason they didn't respond to your query is because it's a stupid question which is more than bleeding obvious if you check out their website. I agree that it's not the Bible of inflight service, but you can get a pretty accurate idea of what kind of product each carrier offers.

Sorry but I have to disagree. I HAVE looked through the Airlinequality website and to me they seem very biased. If they do not respond to my query, in my opinion they loose credibility. You may think its a stupid question, I do not. I want to know where they are getting there information, and if they do not have the decency to respond to me and let me know where that information is coming from, bascially to me what they are posting is pure bullshit.

I quote what the supposed expert at Skytrax said ""Staff motivation seems to be very low, and it can often be difficult to obtain any proper service on some of these longer Iberia flights."

Staff motivation seems low?? According to Skytrax? Has he interviewed staff and asked them? Has he spoken to H.R.? I mean...how do you come up with that kind of an "assumption"?

To give you one example of why I think they are biased...Virgin Atlantic always has been a very respected airline and praised for their quality...and the majority of the comments on their site are negative....how do you explain that?

Sorry, but I do not take anything that website says seriously.


Visca Barça!!