junior1970
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United And TWA 727's In Europe

Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:52 pm

From what I remember in the late 80's and early 90's, seeing TWA and United 727's at AMS.
Since these aircraft don't have the range to cross the atlantic to eastcost USA, up untill today actually I wonder what they were doing in AMS.

Can someone clear this up for me ?  Confused

Thanks.
 
BMED
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:05 am

I think that they were used for services to feed to transatlantic routes as codeshares and alliances were not strong. PanAm for example used the 727 from malta to frankfurt. Passengers then could connect onto a 747 to LHR and onto America. The same as that bad crash in 1988, Lockabie (sorry about spelling)
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isitsafenow
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:08 am

Pan Am had three holers and 737's at Germany too. These plane supplemented europeran routes only..TWA had a hub in Europe, I think at Rome and Pan Am had theirs in Berlin or Frankfort.
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Thrust
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:12 am

The purpose of TWA and United Boeing 727s in Europe (Delta also sent their Boeing 727s in Europe for the same purpose) was mainly because they acted as shuttle services between Europe countries. TWA 727s served France, Germany, Sweden, Belgium, London, Zurich, all domestically speaking. They were short connections between European countries. UA and DL's 727s served a similar purpose. To cross the Atlantic, these 727s were given extra tankage to fly over the Atlantic nonstop, then the tanks were removed when they arrived in Europe to begin flying their typical-length routes. Pan Am also flew their 727s to Europe for the same reason as these other airlines. The 727s were indeed transatlantic feeders in Europe for quite some time until the early 1990s.
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Iberia340600
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:20 am

Why would they fit extra tanks on them just to get them to Europe? It doesnt makes sense. That is not done nowadays, as aircraft just take the northern route...like Montreal to Iceland to England and then to wherever in Europe they need to go. Are you sure about the extra tanks thing?
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BMED
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:24 am

You have strong headwinds coming to europe and the range was never the best on the 727 anyway.
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RayChuang
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:28 am

If I remember correctly, up until the reunification of Germany in 1990 LH (Lufthansa) couldn't fly into West Berlin, so airlines like BA (British Airways), PA (Pan Am) and TW (TWA) flew flights using 727-200's from West German cities into Berlin. These flights ended when the country reunified, which allowed LH to fly to and from Berlin.
 
Iberia340600
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:31 am

You have strong headwinds coming to europe and the range was never the best on the 727 anyway.

Negative. Headwinds are always on the return from Europe to North America. Hence the longer flight times on returns.
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AA717driver
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:40 am

No extra tanks were required for the TWA 727's to go back and forth. They had only the cockpit crew and a temporary INS or Omega was installed to navigate. I believe they stopped at Gander and Shannon.

There was no actual hub for TWA. The crews were based in Berlin, FRA, briefly in CDG and, in the old days even CAI, ATH and FCO were used. The widebodies would pull into CDG and you would have two 747's, four L1011's, a couple of 767's and a lowly 727 that no one paid much attention to out on the hardstand. The 727's would also show up at LHR and FRA.

It was a great operation from a crewmember's standpoint. They used to fly "The Corridor" at 3-5,000' at 300+ kts. Occasionally, Russian or E. German MiG's would "escort" them. Pretty wild times.TC
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dl021
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:49 am

It was a TWA 727 that was hijacked out of Athens and flown all around the Med during the 80's. Our use of smaller feeder liners was a byproduct of the cold war and the lagging development of inter-European airlines. As the Euro airlines developed the need and economic viability of the US feeders lessened.
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uadc8contrail
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:12 am

UA had a 727 base at LHR back when ua purchased the LHR routes from pa, ua flew them to ams,cdg,bru,ham and some others that i cant remember, also ua flew the 727s out of CDG for awhile to ath and gva. i believe DL had a pretty big op at FRA with the 27s when they got the FRA op.
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N276AASTT
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:05 am

It is the same thing with IBERIA. They have/had A319's based in Miami. They use these planes to help connect the IB passengers to and from the Central and South American countries whose loads don't require a daily widebody service. These planes "feed" passengers into MIA for their widebody flights to Spain and vice versa.

When my family and I moved to Germany back in '87, we flew on PanAm from JFK to Zurich on a 747 then connected to a PanAm 727 into Stuttgart Germany.
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Cody
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:44 am

A former TWA employee can correct me if I am wrong. The 727's were not only used for feeding the widebodies, but TWA had several Fifth Freedom routes in Europe. Athens-Rome-Cairo come to mind. I think they also had some sort of agreement with the French that they could actually sell seats from CDG to a few points in Europe. So it was not only a passenger connecting to a widebody that would fly on a TWA 727 in Europe. An Italian could actually buy a ticket on a TWA flight to Rome or Cairo and not be going to America at all.

In the early to mid 1990's, France changed their rules governing foreign carriers flying from France to other points beyond that foreign carriers country of origin. When this happened, TWA closed the CDG hub because it couldn't make a profit on 727's providing connection opportunities to JFK/STL/LAX/IAD/BOS alone. The O & D traffic was gone.

I had a friend who was a Captain on the 727 during this time. He was based at JFK at the time, but had the opportunity to fly the intra-European 727 routes. I think he had to make a six-week commitment to the operation. His trip paring would be something like a JFK-ATH deadhead. He would then be given a temporary assignment in ATH and spend his days flying from ATH to Rome, Tel Aviv, Cairo, and Paris. After six weeks, he went back to JFK for domestic flying. I think JFK based Flight Attendants could actually work a 747 trip from JFK to say Paris. The next day they would fly a 727 trip to Amsterdam, Rome, Athens, or Frankfurt. Then a day or two later would fly a 747, L1011, or 767 back to JFK. Again, if any TWA folks could elaborate or correct me, please jump in!
 
AA717driver
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:15 am

Cody--You could bid it on a month-to-month basis. There was no lock in as far as I knew.

TWA and PAA had Fifth Freedom rights to everywhere in Western Europe. I didn't hear about the French arbitrarily cancelling the rights but there were a lot of changes to route authorities during the deregulation of the N. Atlantic during the early '90's.

During Icahn's tenure, anything that didn't directly add money to HIS bank account was discontinued. Actually, UA and DL didn't continue their ops very long so they must not have made money.TC
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kkfla737
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:01 am

Pan Am flew a numer of 727s out of
Frankfurt which were inherited by DL in 1991, and flew out of LHR which were inhereted by UA in 1991. I'm not sure what happened to the planes PA utilized on the IGS services to/from Berlin, but I remember German reunification which great for the rest of the free world, being another major blow to Pan Am as the route to/from TXL were among their most consistent money makers.
 
gigneil
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:31 am

DL continued their ops for a fairly long time, actually. I think they were still doing it in 1995.

DL operated a fair amount of A310s from Frankfurt.

N
 
greenguy01
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:06 am

Does anyone have an old schedule for these 727's? Did they just run one or two flights a day to get the connecting pax?

I'm curious to see what the a/c utilization was on them.
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TW741
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:14 am

Cody is right with the traffic rights.

The TW 727's (in the beginning 727-100, later changed to 727-200) where used on the "direct services with plane change at intermediate stop" routes.
A major 727 hub was Frankfurt having for example flight number TW740 JFK-FRA with a B747 with onward connections on 727's to TXL, IST, VIE ...
Besides those onward connections there was an extensive network to Berlin (Shuttle Service shared between PA and TW) at the time when only the "4 allience partners" where allowed to fly into Berlin. PA changed this service to A310's whereas TW stayed with the 727 trying to compete.
Later on this shuttle service was discontinued and TXL had just 1 feeder flight a day to FRA for onward connection to JFK.

727's where extensively used with TW, ATH, HAM, MUC, STR, IST, TXL, ARN, VIE and SVO where the major cities served from AMS, BRU, FRA, ZRH, MXP, FCO or GVA.
Same was with PA - PA served more or less the same cities and in addition for instance BUD.
For a very short period PA had 737's instead of 727's in use.

With TW - when Icahn was the owner - he wanted to replace the 727's with DC9-30's in order to save crew costs (cockpit+cabin) but there was a problem with the certification of those Niners for the european operation.

A good deal for TW and PA where those 5th freedom rights as they carried in addition to the US bound pax also local traffic at considerable lower rates than the local carriers.
For all that the "feeder operation" was quite expensive. TXL-FRA and FRA-TXL as the only flights a day with a crew of 7 - so a 2 hour flight utilisation for a B727 per day is not really a good usage.
So both with PA and TW more and more cities originally "feedered" got a direct service with widebodies, like JFK-AMS-VIE or JFK-FRA-VIE with L1011 (later changed to a B762 nonstop), other cities where just discontinued like HAM, STR, ARN, ... - what I remember the 727's mostly where flown back to the states around 94/95.

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patroni
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:17 am

@Greenguy01:
I'm curious to see what the a/c utilization was on them.

I remember we had a UA 727 sitting in Berlin Tegel. It went from Berlin to LHR in the morning to feed the transatlantic flights ex LHR and came back later with the incoming pax. The rest of the day it just sat on the ramp. So utilisation of the 727 was below 4h per day...

Later (1995?) this was replaced by a LH 737 flight, codeshare with UA and then eventually dropped.

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Tom
 
PanAm747
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:36 am

Some points of trivia:

1) TWA had a whole of "kangaroo" routes (many short hops) throughout Europe (as has been stated). I remember thinking, "boy, if they can sell seats on those hops (such as CAI-ATH), they'd make a lot of money". This was before I could ever conceive of the phrase "fifth freedom...I believe at one point they had a routing CAI or TLV-ATH-FCO-ORL. The durability of the 727's made them perfect for this duty - and filled to the brim with a lot of American tourists in the summers!!

2) When Berlin was divided in 1945, each sector (British, French, American, and Soviet) had its own airport. I believe the French had Tegel, the Americans had Templehof, the British I can't remember (it was deemed too small and unexpandable - it was eventually closed), and the Soviets Schönefeld. When the Soviets and East Germans walled off the city, only three air routes were allowed to West Berling over East German territory - via air corridors from Frankfurt, Hannover, and Hamburg. For years, only three airlines were allowed to operate routes into West Berlin - Pan Am, Air France, and BEA.

There were no long range routes directly from West Berlin - I would imagine that the only routes were to Germany and maybe France and the U.K. BEA used Tridents, Air France used caravelles and later 727's, while Pan Am pioneered the use of the 727 in Germany, as did Lufthansa on short and long-range routes in Europe.

I believe TWA also operated 727's into West Berlin at some point, didn't they?

Hope nobody minded me changing this into a memorial for the 727, did they?  Innocent
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RHSNYC
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RE: United And TWA 727's In Europe

Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:11 am

Bmed.......Pan Am never flew Malta to Frankfurt. I was a Pan Am flight attendant who went over to United from LHR. I flew the intra-European routes for both airlines. Pan Am we operated intra-Europe on the 737, 727, and A310. United used the 727 only.

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