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jetjack74
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Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:50 pm

In my opinion, I think that NW will aquire more 757-300's regardless of the engine-type disputes. The aircraft has proved to be a lightning of success for the medium/longhaul market for us. With CO picking up a few on lease, I don't think NW will be far behind in snagging the few that are up for sale. With them being reletively new and out of production, they could be an attractive candidate to re-engine and reconfigure. Most of these aircraft are overwater equiped from their careers with charter airlines. With our company looking for ways to capitalise on growth, this could be the answer.
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gigneil
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:09 pm

How many are really left for acquisition?

The re-engining of an airframe is nontrivial, especially on an older type like the 757. Its certainly possible, and NW could certainly use them.

N
 
ba319-131
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:51 pm

The only ones left are :-

Arkia A/L

4X-BAU(this is showing for sale)

Condor

D-ABOA,OB,OC,OE,OF,OG,OH,OI,OJ,OK,OL,OM,ON

Icelandair

TF-FIX

That apart from NW,CO,TZ that is it,just 15 frames out there.
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leelaw
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:08 pm

Won't happen, the cost of having two engine types isn't cost effective. NW blew it when they didn't take up some of their remaining options (16) when Boeing pulled the plug last year, and Boeing gave them ample time to make a decision. They'll live with the 16 PW powered 753s (the only ones assembled) they've got, and figure something else out. Perhaps get some A321s for short range flights which require higher capacity, and re-deploy 752s exclusively on medium/long hauls?
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ua777222
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:16 pm

Well someone has to be making offers on TZ frames. I'm surprised Icelandair is dumping their 753 seeing how this a/c (757S) is the backbone of the airline, well the only bone of the airline. Then again the 752 has better range, min. being around 2400 and max. being around 4000 if I'm correct (the 753 offering a min. of around 2200 and a max of 3400 if I'm correct), which works well for their LONGGG flights. As troubled as they say the industry is only 15 frames is something to be proud of.

Thanks again.

UA777222
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highliner2
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:33 pm

CO is getting TZs birds in 2005 I believe...
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yyz717
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:34 pm

NW is the only PW customer of the 753, and hence with a large 752/753 PW fleet, I hardly see them adding a smallish fleet of RR 753's. As gigneil said, adding the RR 753 is not a non-trivial event for NW.

I really don't ever see any RR 757's in the NW fleet. Is NW pissed that Boeing closed the 757 line? Perhaps......but that is not enough for NW to add used RR 753's to their fleet.

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aviatortj
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:43 pm

FWIW, also remember that NW got rid of RC's (Now HP's) 757s that were not PW powered.


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jetjack74
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:37 pm

Won't happen, the cost of having two engine types isn't cost effective. NW blew it when they didn't take up some of their remaining options (16) when Boeing pulled the plug last year, and Boeing gave them ample time to make a decision. They'll live with the 16 PW powered 753s

LeeLaw, Are you aware that we operated two different engine-types for the DC10? We had the DC10-30/40's in the fleet at the same time. NW had 21 PW-powered DC10-40's and brought on 24 GE DC10-30's between 6/90 and 8/00. I think it is conceivable it could happen if there is enough demand in markets these aircraft.

FWIW, also remember that NW got rid of RC's (Now HP's) 757s that were not PW powered

Well the 757 was at it's infancy at the time, but the engine types were weren't the only reason that NW disposed of them. They differed from the rest of the NW fleet in that RC pilots were the only ones that could fly them due to a different cockpit layout. AW bought these, and had there subseqeunt ordered 757's match the 2nd-hand RC ones
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NWAFA
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:53 am

We were told in meetings with the company (Im involved with our Union) that NWA approached Boeing to keep the 757 open as they wanted more 757-300's.
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STT757
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:37 am

There are a few former UAL pratt powered 757-200s sitting around, they don't have the capacity of the 757-300 but they have better range.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
N808NW
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:04 am

Why dosent NW just order the 762. It can carry about the same amount of pax and cargo as the 753, and it has greater range. The 757 and 767 share the same cockpit, so thats a plus for NW crews.

???????

-Jason
All flights have great IFE...get yourself a window seat, thats something no PTV can beat! flew 808 Pacific an Atlanic
 
san747
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:14 am

Why dosent NW just order the 762.

I don't think the 767-200 is still in production...however, the 767-300 is, and it would probably be a good aircraft to use instead of 753s, provided the 763s had a 3-class configuaration. Jut a thought...
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leelaw
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:35 am

"Are you aware that we operated two different engine-types for the DC10? We had the DC10-30/40's in the fleet at the same time. NW had 21 PW-powered DC10-40's and brought on 24 GE DC10-30's between 6/90 and 8/00. I think it is conceivable it could happen if there is enough demand in markets these aircraft."

IMO, NW will not be able to scrounge up enough RR powered 753s to make a dual-engined fleet economically feasible in the near term. I'm not sure the DC-10 comparison is a good one, because NW got the DC-10-30s at very reasonable prices (I believe, all were at least 5-10 years old at the time of purchase) and were available in sufficient quantities to make dual-engine types feasible. The largest single source of remaining 753s would be Condor and it's my understanding they're hanging on to them. Should these become available in the future, perhaps NW will go the RR route if there is a need for the aircraft.

"We were told in meetings with the company (Im involved with our Union) that NWA approached Boeing to keep the 757 open as they wanted more 757-300's."

My understanding is that NW management, as is frequently the case, played coy with Boeing regarding taking up its options before 753 production ended. In this case, the game of chicken failed to produce the desired price cuts and Boeing ended the program. Had NW come up with a significant order in a reasonable time frame, I'm sure Boeing would have accommodated the customer and built the aircraft, they did for the former TWA with the MD-80.
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isitsafenow
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:16 am

I dont think so JJ. My money is on a few more A330-200's for a little domestic time, namely MCO, RSW, SEA, LAX, PHX, and LAS in season. Perhaps 6 to 8 more.
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ContinentalFan
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:31 am

I don't think NW will order A332s to fly domestic routes. They will possibly shift old DC-10s off of international routes as they are replaced by A330 series aircraft, but new A330s are expensive. With some exceptions (e.g. Delta, transcons), most domestic widebody flights seem to be continuations of international flights.
 
leelaw
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:32 am

"My money is on a few more A330-200's for a little domestic time, namely MCO, RSW, SEA, LAX, PHX, and LAS in season."

I'm not so sure the A332 is such a great domestic solution given stage lengths on the routes mentioned, but could well be the only viable option short of introducing another aircraft type like the A321 to free up 757s. Keeping DC-10s in the fleet longer than planned isn't a great option either, because of the mounting mx expense and three person cockpit.

[Edited 2004-12-31 20:38:11]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
gigneil
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:40 am

The 767-200 is still in production, but its a horrible choice for NW. Its too much plane for the domestic routes, and its operating costs are much higher than the 753.

Plus, as much as its a common type, its a very different airplane. NW would do just as well acquiring some second hand A310s for this purpose.

A330-200s for domestic runs is hard. The 332 requires a large aircraft gate sized for the likes of 747s and 777s. The 767 can fit in to much smaller gates, making them a better fit for domestic routes.

I do think the best alternative for NW is to add the 321 to the fleet, put it on shorter haul high density runs, and free up 752s. Even swap those freed-up 752s on to some of the HNL flying and have the 753 for some mainland sections.

N
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:51 am

If NW were to buy new A321's (not many parked up?) why not just buy up some older 752's? Has NW shown a desire to buy new aircraft when there are older planes available?
 
flyabr
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:02 am

does anyone think NW would get some 7e3s for domestic ops...wouldn't this aircraft be ideal for say MSP to SFO...LAS...etc??
 
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solnabo
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:06 am

Will CO have winglets on their 753 too, as they are to get on 752??

I know this topic is about NW´s 753, just curius though...

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Planesmart
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:07 am

Just as A & B are ultra keen to win NW's next new aircraft order, RR are equally keen to play a part.

Not beyond the realms of possibility that RR could offer NW a package of s/h 757's with super sharp power by the hour deal.

A is trying to fill the A32 order book as far forward as possible, so they can announce and develop a replacement without impacting production volumes of the A32. There are great deals around which an A32/757 or 757 only operator could take up relatively quickly.
 
flyabr
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:11 am

is there any chance that NW could pick up some RR 753s and let there close partner CO maintain them...?
 
ba319-131
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:18 am

The basic problem is there are very few 753's left.

Thomas Cook/Condor were looking to dispose of their fleet but found no takers,it was easier to dispose of the 752 fleet,which they have started to do. Assuming they keep them,whhich looks likely now,there are only 6 753's left spare.
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
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STT757
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:25 am

The Domestic system is the exact reason why I expect NWA to eventualy go place a 7E7 order vs an order for A350s, the 7E7-300 has a different wing so and is able to squeeze into 757/767 gates.

The 7E7-300 is much better suited for operations such as NWA's DTW where you can fit them in right next to narrow bodies, also one huge advantage is that the 7E7-300 will probably be able to operate into LGA.
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Planesmart
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:31 am

You're right BA319-131. Not many 300's.

Perhaps a deal could involve Condor and BA 200's.
 
gigneil
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:39 am

he 7E7-300 has a different wing so and is able to squeeze into 757/767 gates.


Well, same wing. Different tips.

also one huge advantage is that the 7E7-300 will probably be able to operate into LGA.

It absolutely will. Its span is quite modest, actually, compared to other widebodies.

N
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sun Jan 02, 2005 3:10 pm

I'm not sure the DC-10 comparison is a good one, because NW got the DC-10-30s at very reasonable prices (I believe, all were at least 5-10 years old at the time of purchase) and were available in sufficient quantities to make dual-engine types feasible.

Most of the DC10's were over 10 years old at the time, and had more than 60,000 hrs on them. These are the aircraft MSN numbers, original carriers and their delivery dates
S/N Carrier Delivery date NW Reg
46868 SAS 10/5/74 N211NW
46577 Swissair 9/10/73 N220NW*
46579 Swissair 2/06/74 N221NW
46580 Swissair 1/11/75 N223NW
46581 Swissair 2/15/75 N224NW
46582 Swissair 2/21/75 N225NW
46583 Swissair 3/03/75 N226NW
46969 Swissair 10/22/77 N227NW
46578 Swissair 12/06/73 N228NW*
46551 KLM 12/03/74 N229NW
46552 KLM 2/06/73 N230NW
46961 Thai Int'l 5/05/77 N232NW
46640 MAS 9/21/77 N233NW
46912 KAL 2/10/75 N234NW
46915 KAL 4/25/75 N235NW
46934 KAL 2/09/75 N236NW
47844 Varig 11/10/80 N237NW
48267 Thai Int'l 12/01/87 N238NW
48290 Thai Int'l 12/22/87 N239NW
48319 Thai Int'l 5/26/88 N240NW
48282 Varig 4/30/81 N241NW
47845 Varig 6/09/81 N242NW
48315 JAS 3/30/88 N243NW
48316 JAS 7/29/88 N244NW

*Retired from the fleet
Most of them, as you can see, were built before 1980. They didn't acquired the later-model ones until 1996-00. 1226, 1237-1244 were the ER models. NW recieved most of them at extremely cheap prices. The leasing company who owned them gave them to NW for a song. Fears of the MD11, 767ER and A330/340 coming on line really devalued these aircraft. NW couldn't say no. Which is why I think, that if the prices were right, NW would probably bring more 753's into the fleet regardless of engine-type.
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sllevin
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:56 pm

Why doesn't NW just order the 762.

While of similar capacity, the 767 birds were designed with much longer range in mind. Hence, they have a heavier structure to carry all the weight, etc.

Off the top of my head, a 767 carries around about 25 *tons* more airframe.

Steve
 
leelaw
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:42 pm

"...that if the prices were right, NW would probably bring more 753's into the fleet regardless of engine-type."

I agree, but the lack of available of RR powered 753s in sufficient numbers makes the price too high and consequently renders your hypothesis moot.
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jetjack74
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:40 am

I'm not talking about acquisition of an entire fleet, just about 7-8 more. There are several that are going to become available. Condor, TZ and Arkia have some that I believe are probably going to be put up for sale. TZ is for sure, CO is taking just a few, but there will be some left over. The 753 was designed for charter airlines, but NW and CO have found them to be a very worthwhile aircraft. I don't think that NW is finished with the 757, whether we obtain some 2nd-hand 753's or longer-range 752's, we'll most likely be grabbing a few more.
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sv11
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:51 am

I also think that NW will take some RR powered 757-300s. I thought Condor/ATA were looking to sell theirs? Then NW can also get some RR 757-200s and increase the fleet numbers.

sv11
 
gigneil
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:06 am

Its better for NW to acquire a large quantity of them, if that's the route they decide to go.

That way they spread the fixed costs of having a different engine type across a larger number of engines.

If NW were to buy new A321's (not many parked up?) why not just buy up some older 752's?

I didn't respond to this earlier, but should have.

I totally agree that purchasing second hand Pratt 752s is a cost effective route from a capital expenditure perspective.

But this is also a good opportunity to analyze some of the shorter haul routes that do maintain loads in the 180-200 pax range but certainly don't need any of the extended capability of the 757 like field performance or range, or even belly cargo. On routes like those, the costs of operating the 321 might easily outweigh the added cost of capital (which stays on your books as a positive asset for a very long time).

N
 
aa777jr
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:08 am

Will opening a A330 crew base in SEA make any difference in NW decision to commit more money to ordering 753?

Thanks in AAdvance!
AA777jr
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azjubilee
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:39 am

AA777jr - to answer your question... NO. The 330 base is for the increased 330 use on the west coast. SEA/PDX/SFO-NRT are all 330s right now and SEA-AMS will eventually go to 330. It makes sense to have the base there. The 330 has nothing to do with the 753 as it is a completely different fleet with different missions.


AZJ
 
jblake1
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:53 am

Are NW 753 equipped with IFE? I know they don't show anything in the continental US but how about to Hawaii?

I'm booking a trip to HNL soon and would like to know if I should stick to the DC10's or 753's?

jblake1
 
N801NW
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:59 am

NW 753's do have IFE via drop down LCD screens every few rows. They do not have PTV's and the IFE is not used when the 753 do domestic (non-overwater) flights.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:12 am

he 7E7-300 has a different wing so and is able to squeeze into 757/767 gates.

767 gates maybe, 757 gates, no way. The short range 7E7's wing has a span of 165-170ft. per Boeing. The 757's span is just under 125 ft. There will be gate issues for those airlines using the 7E7 to directly replace thier 757's.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Opinion: NW Will Acquire More 753's.

Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:53 am

They do not have PTV's and the IFE is not used when the 753 do domestic (non-overwater) flights.
We do use them to and from Alaska also.
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