**Misinformation? How's that? I'm saying one thing: if we listen to you and what you want done, or not done, we'll soon find ourselves in a USAir-type bind.**
No, you're forcing your onesided opinion without listen to any financial facts. You have taken the bait hook line and sinker from the press spin at CO
. I'm not saying everything is perfect, but I feel from valid data and reading factual SEC filings and the like, we are not in as dire condition as you have even made to believe.
**I'm making one point: take the pain now, or take a world of hurt later.**
Again, that is a two way street. You sure seem to have no problem seeing our pay cut because we make more money? As a rude reply right back at you, why do you feel I should take more of a paycut because you are only an agent? Is it my fault you didn't get the education experience to fly? To put up with years of crap wages in GA
or serving your country in the military. Sorry pal, my expectations are a bit higher than yours due to what it took to get me where I am today. Not an insult, just a fact.
**What do you want? And "neither" isn't an option any longer, so that's out of the question.**
It is only not an option for those that don't take the time to read anything other than the Daily News Update
** I don't know about what "misinformation" you're referring to.**
Your posts are full of misinformation, and mischaracterizations of the process and what is actually happening. But what do I know? You're an agent with a real pulse on the pilot group, and I am just some 767 Captain who doesn't attend any pilot meetings, I never talk to others in the crew rooms, nothing is ever said in the cockpit about this. Yes, you are really a beacon of information here.
**If it's the fact that you and many of your union colleagues want to fight this to the bitter end,**
If you would take the time to read the filings (are you starting to see a common theme here) you might not be so scared.
**I don't think I'm at all putting out misinformation. I think that's the truth.**
You do. If that is how you feel, go ahead and donate that pay. I am not stopping you one bit.
, also think, in the end, that on Feb 28th, your union and your membership will do the right thing, and take the share of the wage concessions assigned to you.**
Assigned to you? You are really out of touch with reality.
**Depends if you are bothering to listen to the opinion or not.**
Like you? Now that is funny. I notice that I have offered several small facts but you ignore them? Why is that?
**Yes, in fact, I think they are. Next question.**
Can your crystal ball tell me the next winning lotto numbers?
**Pissed off? Why, for God's sake? You think you're above the rest of us or something? **
I said that where?
**I'm not happy with it either, but like I said, I seem to understand, better than you, what the industry is going through. **
No, you are being played like a fiddle and exploited. I am truly sorry that you do not take the time to read or possible lack the ability to understand what is actually happening with the company in a financial sense. It appears the extent of your knowledge is derived from the dnu and newspaper articles.
**You seem to think, from what I gather, that we're just fine ,and, as usual from a union perspective, everything is management's fault, which is a bunch of nonsense.**
Yes, your comment is nonsense. Again it degrades into a union argument. It is clear you have a real problem with the union.
**We're the best run airline in the states, and we have the best workforce in the states, **
Cutting pay is a real good way to show that. You can kiss this attitude goodbye very soon. From flying the line all over the world I have seen a marked change in attitude. Now I know your view from the podium once again is a broader picture than what I see.....
**and I think it's a combination of LCC influece, high fuel prices and a still-soft market that are doing us in, not exec bonuses and management fiscal irresponsibility, as you seem to think. **
Riiiiiiiiiggggggghhhht which LCC commands a premium in International markets? Why didn't CO
spend money to hedge fuel? Why do you feel employees need to underwrite the cost of doing business..i.e. fuel? If Chelsea suddenly said we can't afford to put lettuce on sandwiches anymore shall we pay for that as well? Soft market? HAve you tried to use your pass privileges lately? And I am not talking about over the holidays either.
**We've been bucking the trend for 3 or four years now, holding the line on wages, and, in many cases, INCREASING wages,**
Is that right? I haven't had a pay raise since 1998.
**while other carriers have been slashing billions and billions in wages.**
Getting down right to where the pilots are now at CO
. Your point?
**Honestly, did you really think we'd be immune if the red ink didn't stop?**
Figure lie and liars figure. Old accounting phrase. Do us all a favor, again read up on the quarterlies, SEC's 10Q's and then come back with a more informed non emotional sky is falling attitude. I'll debate act all day long with you.
**I can see you being upset, but the pissed off part just blows my mind, to be honest.**
Seeing as how you're not one of us (pilot) why should I expect anything else?
I wouldn't dare be so arrogant to imply what or why an agent should be upset about.
**Fine, then when we go back into bankruptcy, **
If that is what it is going to take then fine. You refuse to accept the CASM problem is not an labor problem. It is costs due to inefficiencies and other matters not related to employee costs. Management is asking you to subsidize factors beyond your control. Like I have told you over and over, if that is what you want to do go ahead. I am not stopping you. However, your continued belly aching about "unions", "pilots" they make higher pay ad nauseum is arrogant.
**I'll be sure to thank you for your intrastringence and unwillingness to do what's right for the company.**
The company has scored a direct hit with you. They are dividing and conquer amongst the employee groups. Those nasty pilots won't take a pay cut etc. etc. etc. Works perfect to deflect anger at the real culprits of what is happening. Sorry that you have been so easily swayed.
**I've been listening. It sounds like union propaganda to me.**
You're a lost cause.
**I'm no economic genius, **
That is an understatement
**but I don't have my head so far in the clouds, I guess, that I can't see what's going on around me.*
**Gee, did you miss the part where management says they're taking cuts, as much as 25% on their pay? **
Gee did you miss the sleight fact the when JS
and LK moved up to their new positions a few months ago, they increased the pay for those same job classifications? Gee did you miss the fact they will still get bonus pay for 2005 an d beyond? Gee did you miss the fact that with their "paycuts" they are still 6 - 8 percent ahead of where they'd be year over year?
**They aren't obscene-only to you, because you make a political football out of something that execs get at every company.**
So true. So untrue at financial underperforming companies. If you're fine with your pay going to, for on e thing that $49 million payout. Go right ahead.
**Some people think what you make is obscene, but I don't see you complaining about it.**
That's is because I consider the source. When you can hand fly a jet down to minimums in a stiff crosswind with an engine out. Then I'll listen.
**Yes, the sob story of how bad off our pilots are. You make very good money, and you deserve it, but don't go telling me how bad off you are.**
I said that? Where? When? Which message? Your color green with envy gets darker with each message.
**You voted for the contract, remember.**
Which was, at the time, a substantial improvement over C95. They were both sorely lacking amongst our peers.
**Taken me far enough, living a good life, and enjoying it. I guess you can run the airline all by yourself, right? **
>>That statement is appalling in it's ignorance.<<
No, not really.
>>The revenue environment WON'T pick up. <<
So you're saying cut the pay to make the differnce. And what has paycuts done for U? For UAL? Name one airline that cutting pay has saved.
**LCC's are driving the prices of tickets.**
Yes, those PAris flights I fly are influenced by JB
**Oil is going to stay high;**
Not an employee problem. If it goes to $100 a barrel are you going to work for free? Or shall we just keep letting the inds=ustry handicap itself on the backs of all emplyees?
**government keeps piling on taxes on an industry alread over-burdened with them.**
true, but not an employee problem
**Maybe you have this pie-in-the sky belief that everything will come right if we just wait, but if we just wait, we may end up like UA
and US. **
You mean like CO
's stratgey to wait for them to fail?
**I don't think either of us wants that. Again, EVERYONE is taking these cuts. You act as if you alone are bearing this burden that is coming.**
Perhaps, perhaps not. One thing is for sure, so far I have not heard one pilot say they will vote for concessions. I'm sure you deal with many more than i do right?
****I expected better from a pilot who, obviously, is far superior to me in ever respect. I"m disappointed, really.
Tell you what, you worry about your pay as an agent, I'll worry about my pay and benefits as a pilot. You don't see me here "whining" about what you should be doing.
**That's probably because 1. you don't give a shit about agents, and 2. becuase you're too worried about yourself and not the company.**
1) It is not that I don't "care" about other employees. I don't share you r arrogance in the blanket statement that we should do something because we either make more than you. I also don't pretend to know what is right for another employees group to decide based on their particular jobs. Unlike you.
2) I am not worried about myself since my financial house is in order. I'll start worryng about the company when I see real efforts by managemnt to fix the fundamental problems and stop enriching themselves.
**I know you're not, in the broad scope of things, which is why I'm throwing it right back in your face. **
Oh my...is that what you';re doing. And here I thought you were just making a fool of yourself. My mistak
**You make a good point on the "if ever" EWR757. A very valid point. If conditions warrent, we can always cancel that order, much as AA
did with the 738's we're picking up for a song and a dance, and what has it cost us? Nothing! **
Not so fast. It has cost us plenty. If you read the financials (HINT HINT HINT) in the last quarter of 2003, we deffred delivery on several 737-800's until 2008. CO
paid a $14 million dollar penelty for that. We also have parked MD
-80's a paid a fortune in fee's some up to 27% of their value for a 20 year old aircraft. IYou should note that CO
would of been profitable without those writedowns. How convienent. Remeber last month the reason was we needed to reduce capaicty and get rid of the aircraft. Now we need capacity? You don't see a problem here?
**We aren't paying for them now, so we're not underwriting anything, are we. **
Of course we are not paying fo rthem now. The day we take delivery we are. What is your point?
**But if the conditions improve, as we all hope they will (on that, I think we're agreed), then we've positioned ourselves to do some serious expansion with a state-of-the art aircraft that will jump-start us into the next decade. It is a no-lose proposition, as far as the 7e7 goes.**
Great for the company. Next time you go to make your mortgae payment, short them 27% or 8%. Just tell them we're flying all these shiny new airplanes around to make up for it. I'm sure they will understand.
**So, you're telling me only management should feel any pain in this?**
No, I'm saying paying 13 people $49 million while you're cutting pay from the grunts is disgusting.
**Note, Ewr757: EVERY CORPORATION HAS SUCH PLANS. It's the way business is done. It's the way to attract talented people into management positions. Again, you sound envious of it. But in the long run, that $49 million isn't a whole lot of money, except as a PR
point for disgruntled pilots.**
Not a whole lot of money? Wow....that alone iis 10% percent of the "needed" cuts? Talk abot PR
**Well, then you're not listening, because Kellner and the top brass are taking $25 percent paycuts, and didn't take their bonus for 2004. They are cutting their pay, you're just ignoring that fact.**
Already discussed. Look at the pay year over year and do the math. It really isn't that difficult.
**Fine. Cya in bankruptcy court, where you'll have to fork over even more. It's your decison, man, not mine. Pay a little now, or a lot more later.**
This company is nowhere close to bankruptcy. Besides, management wouldn't endanger their present golden parachute.
**I guess "working together" only counts when you get what you want?**
I guess funding the future only applies to executive compnesation.
I notice you didn't answer the several points I brought. Express Jet fuel and such. Why is that?
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