CB777
Posts: 1135
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 8:13 am

CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:06 am

Rumors are circulating that the field services pay cut could be as much as
12 percent. Many of my fellow employees are getting ready for the worst.
I think it may get ugly as far as labor relations in the near future!!!!!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:32 am

I don't think it'll get ugly, to be honest. No one is happy, but most people are smart enough to realize the alternative of possibly going into Chapter 11 and losing even more is not really palatable.

I think the paycuts, from everyone I've talked to, will be about 7%, with a lot of concessions on things like vaction and overrides.

That's a lot of money, to be sure, but I've been through it before. Personally, I can handle it a little better now that I'm at top-out, then when I was making under $7 an hour, lat time we took pay cuts.

You'll have your malcontents-MaxQ is a good example of that. But most people, while not liking it, understand it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:05 pm

V,
The flight attendant ranks are actually getting extremely negative, anti company over this, and many of them are talking strike and all sorts of other idiotic things. While my family is open to the cuts and realize that it is a reality to come, many are full of the 'management is screwing us, and we are secretly making money and they are stealing it" mentality.

As much as I think the opposite, there is definately a majority that are in rank and saying they will fight any cut at all.

Sad.

Jeremy
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:18 pm

Well, they'll fight it, Jeremy, but it will come to pass, or else the company will give them hell with a trip to bankruptcy court. Fortunately, CO's unions arent's as militant as other airline unions, and I think they'll see to reason. They won't like it-who does, really-but they'll go along.

I had a crew the other days saying "oh, they're getting money under the table for the new aircraft", and "let the CEO make $1", and I told them, with respect, they were full of crap. They kind of looked at me funny, and I flat-out told them that this is one reason I don't like unions at airlines-is this kind of crap, which it is-crap.

Heard the other day that the pilots' union negotiators, a panel of 9, I believe, voted unanimously to accept the amount of wage concessions the pilots will have, and now they're looking at work rule changes and the like to see how much they can minimize off-the-top cuts.

The unions will go along. They'll whine and cry, like they always do ,but in the end, they'll go along.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
padcrasher
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:22 pm

12% would be harsh. I believe that CO has lower rates than DL/UA and AA even now after those 3 airlines latest cuts. I think this will be difficult to pass. CO is cash flow positive and almost break even. Unions would be wise to wait and see what will shake out with US Airways and Independence air and United.
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:28 pm

Unions would be wise to wait and see what will shake out with US Airways and Independence air and United.

They have till Feb 28th till wait. After then, if they're still squealing, the compnay has said they will take matters into their own hands.

As for 12%, I agree, and I think it will be more like 7% off-the-top, with more work-rule changes, at least in the field services division.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Max Q
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:02 pm

I imagine it's a little harder to understand the 'need' for pay cuts for most employees excluding management that is (who make their's up in bonuses) when the Express pilot's just received an 11% raise and $40 million dollars in back pay (which I sincerely congratulate them on)

When you tell your employees that these cut's are vital for the airline's survival,
then a month later order over a Billion dollar's of new aircraft and tell them it is contingent on these same cut's, which is it?

An earlier post indicated 'most people are smart enough to realize the possibility of going into chapter 11 is less palatable'

I assume by your position, then that you have no objection to other Continental employees receiving raises while your compensation is cut, that you always take management on their word regardless of how it affect's you.

I have been with this airline for over 18 years, through the godawful lorenzo years, Hollis Harris and his Prayers and the priceless Bob Ferguson and his 'cal lite' and have done everything but give them the shirt off my back, as have most of my peers, we are the most productive hardworking group of pilot's out there and have always worked for less.

I'd be willing to bet you've done more than your share too, it doesn't make you a bad person to question management you know, despite Bethune having done some good things (with our help) you have as much right to question their leadership as anyone, especially when they make contradictory and misleading statement's.

If you keep settling for less I guarantee you they will keep coming back for more, our greatest strength over the last 10 years has been the hard work and good morale of this airline, when employees stop caring...well we've all seen what happens then.

On the other hand, if you choose to just take them at their word, and denigrate those that do not you'll only have yourself to blame as you lose more and more.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
CAL
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:05 pm

If you actually believe that the pilots and Flight Attendants will have their pay cut in by Feb 28, I think your very mistaken. I believe it will be closer to summer or even fall before the Pilots and F/A take the cuts. Many pilots and F/A are willing to push the company to the brink of bankruptcy before they give something up.
My personal opinion is this: Before we are to take pay-cuts we need to do more cutting things back. For example we throw away so much food on those planes its really not funny. We waist so much stuff. We need to do things like the other airlines did and cut meals, take off crew meals, take off pillows and blankets. Change some of the layover hotels etc. etc . etc..
Im just saying that many more changes within the company need to happen before the front line takes cut.
Face it if your agents and flight attendants are not happy then the passengers wont be happy.
I love my job and let me say I love Continental and I hate to see us in the position that were in. Hopefully when things are better we can once again offer all of those nice amenities and nice employee perks that we once had but now is the time we have to cut them
CAL.... Still. Working Hard and trying to Fly RIght
CAL........Continental Airlines....... Work Hard, Fly Right
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:34 pm

When you tell your employees that these cut's are vital for the airline's survival,
then a month later order over a Billion dollar's of new aircraft and tell them it is contingent on these same cut's, which is it?


MaxQ, do you think just because there are paycuts, that the airline should not plan to stay competitive, and plan for the future? The airline industry won't stop when you and I take paycuts. Airlines have to keep moving forward, and this is part of the process. What part of that do you not understand?

On the other hand, if you choose to just take them at their word,

You seem to take the Union at it's word, don't you? What's the difference?

If you actually believe that the pilots and Flight Attendants will have their pay cut in by Feb 28, I think your very mistaken. I believe it will be closer to summer or even fall before the Pilots and F/A take the cuts.

If they're that dumb, then their cuts will be bigger than what the company is asking for now. They'll do it by the deadline. They won't like it, but they'll do it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
777gk
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:53 pm

A divestiture of Chelsea Catering might be an option, though I haven't heard of any meal service cuts and such a move would certainly hurt a company which is a subsidiary of ours.

The pay cuts we will take in '05 were something we knew was coming, but chose to believe that they wouldn't given the relative spacing between our announcement and the rollout of the concession packages other carriers were forced to create at an earlier stage of the game. It's a big hit, but something I feel had to be done with the apparent stabilization of fuel prices at unheard-of levels, and nearly every other area of the company tapped dry of cost cutting solutions.

Regarding Thursday's announcements, I'm a firm believer in the old adage "you have to spend some money in order to make money", and for us to further distance ourselves from the competition smart, low-risk capital expenditures are a prudent way to go. Our moves are being praised by the financial types, and while the morale of the company has noticeably declined as of late, I am certain that spending some money now will pay great dividends in the future when things turn over. I've been through all the ups-and-downs with this company, and perhaps my attitude is jaded, but I feel like I've been through worse than this, and soon, things are going to be better. They've been on the way up for a while, it's just that the paradigm has shifted such that our great strides in "trimming the fat" have only resulted in net losses due to the independent variable of fuel. From an operational standpoint, we've taken steps on the flight deck to reduce consumption in any number of ways, and I'm sure systemwide we have saved some money for the company, so again I'm happy to be doing my part but I know that it won't quite be enough to push us over the edge, but the agreed-upon package of pay cuts and benefits give us at least a fighting chance to do so.

I'm not going to be with this company for a whole lot longer, but I look at this entire struggle since 2001 as a marathon, not a sprint. Other companies have made sweeping changes and seemingly pulled ahead of the pack, only to encounter other problems stemming from such a rapid start that they might not have seen in advance. Others, like Continental, have taken a proactive, careful approach, which not only allows us to make it through today's environment, but also sets us up to thrive in the next period of growth that will come, as it always does, in this, one of the most cyclical of industries.

Back to the marathon analogy for a minute, look at it like the final hill of the race. We've been running as a team for 24 miles, doing whatever it takes to ensure that we will come out of the race healthy. It's been a rough go, but perhaps an easier time than some of our competitors. The last 2 miles of the race are at a steep grade, but once we reach the top, we are home free and get to rest for a while. The last hill is going to take some sacrifices from all of us, and while we may not agree with everything that's going to go on, take it from the veterans: we know what we are doing, and trust us, we are going to get it done even if it takes every last bit of our energy to cross that line.

The common goal, or finish line, is profitability, and once we attain it, we will be built immeasurably better for the future, a bright one at that.

On a side note CAL... I'd be reluctant to kiss away those amenities for the customer any time soon, because things like free meals, pillows, entertainment, and blankets are things that separate us and our product from the competition. Look at the old lounges on the 747: if these other things go, where would the incentive be to ever bring them back?
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:05 pm

Regarding Thursday's announcements, I'm a firm believer in the old adage "you have to spend some money in order to make money"

Exactly! We can't stop being an airline, or a business, because of pay cuts, can we? We still have to pay bills, have to buy gas, have to BUY AIRPLANES once in a while. The world can't stop because of pay cuts. The company didn't stop when it was losing money, did it? It kept going forward the best it could. So will we as agents, and so will the company.

Listening to Max, the company should just put everything on hold becuase his pay is cut. Doesn't work that way, Max.

And remember, once we can get profitable again, the company will revisit pay scales, much like they did in the 90's. I got 60% in pay raises between 1994 and 1999, Max, so you won't hear me bad-mouthing the company. They were really good to me, and thanks to them, I was able to do a lot of very good things for my family, like move into a really good area, go on some good trips with the kids, and a few with my wife, and buy new vehicles.

I'm not thrilled that I have to take a pay cut, and it will make meeting obligations a little tighter, but unlike you, Max, I understand why it's happenning. I'm not going to act like a spoiled baby, and act unprofessionally, as some union people, and some on the ramp and some agents seem to want to do. Forget it. I have too much pride in myself for that.

I don't like this either, but i'd rather do this than try to find another job at my age.
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solnabo
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:14 pm

CO are to buy 10 7E7, at the same time they´re cutting $ 500 million in wages and benefits for its employees!

Scary!

Micke / SE  Insane
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:50 pm

CO are to buy 10 7E7, at the same time they´re cutting $ 500 million in wages and benefits for its employees!

Scary!


You didn't read a damn thing on the last two posts, did you? Scary.
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solnabo
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:17 am

Sorry Falcon if I ignored you´re post, but you can "always get another job at you´re age".

Cheers

Micke / SE  Insane
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:37 am

Solnabo, I don't know what the hell that last post even meant, but as I said, airlines can't stop being an airline because of wage concessions. If there's an opportunity for an airline to improve it's poslition, and getting planes does that, then I don't see the problem. Left to minds like yours, I guess we'd never purchase an aircraft again, simply because of wage cuts. That's the scary type of thinking.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
copter808
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:58 am

I seem to have missed something here...

Although I don't want a pay cut any more than the rest of you--It is going to happen.

After re-reading the CO Employee Q&A, as well as what I recall from the press release, I don't see where CO is spending much cash for these airplanes. The 67s and 37s are going to be leased (the 737 contract provides for backstop leasing--whatever that means). The 7E7s are not scheduled to be delivered until 2009 and quite likely could be leased if we are short on cash and still have a good credit rating. The only money required upfront appears to be the loan payments on the refurbishing of the 57s.

Although the lease contract is carried as a "liability", we always have the possibility of renegotiating the terms or returning the aircraft if things get really bad. Just like we did 10 years ago!

Many of the us were with CO when you kind of "whispered" who you worked for when asked. At one time CO was in a really unique position--Dead Last. We didn't even have any competition for the position. We were so far behind, no one else could even come close!!

Gordon & Company arrived, and along with the rest of us, turned things around. Now when I say that I work for CO, people usually have good things to say. That even includes the employees of some of our competition. We have a GREAT company! Let's not become another US, TW, PA, and a whole list of other dead airlines.

We are Continental and we will make it through this!

If anyone out there knows how to get money when there is none, please, call Larry first thing Monday morning. (Send the rest of us an e-mail so we can get on the bandwagon too!)

We have to keep in mind that two of the primary things CO has to do is to keep our Customers happy, and keep Wall Street happy. We cannot do either if we start fighting among ourselves and letting our customers see our dis-satisfaction.

One more thing Guys and Gals. Let's be more careful when and where we discuss company business. Many of us have heard employees/crewmembers discussing company business (morale and pay) at breakfast, on the jetway, and other places where the public can hear us. (US, because as much as I try to be aware of it, I'm sure that I've done it too!)

Whew! Time to get off my horse and go to breakfast!
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:02 am

The only money required upfront appears to be the loan payments on the refurbishing of the 57s.

Actually, Boeing will foot the bill for refurbishing the 753's and 738's into CO colors and interior design, another reason why this is a sweet deal for CO.
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nyskymasters
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:10 am

Falcon84,

I just saw this post so I am a bit slow in responding to your first remarks at the top. All I can say about ALPA already agreeing to the paycuts is THINK AGAIN. If they have then this is going to be a long process. The pilots are being asked to shoulder something like 44% of the cuts. Rough math says that is over 25% of the total pilot costs to the company. When you have a legacy carrier that already has some of the lowest costs I think it would be safe to say that the union negotiators have NOT agreed to anything yet.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:33 am

I have to go with Falcon on this - I think COs folks won't like the cuts, but they are smart enough to know it means CO will survive and continue to thrive where other carriers are purchasing tombstones.

Furthermore, as Falcon said, CO has to purchase new a/c to remain competitive. They'd be foolish to think they could continue to compete 5-6-7 years down the road without new routes and a/c.

Certainly one of the things that sets CO apart, in my opinion of course, from the other troubled legacy carriers is the communication between management and employees. One of the reasons CO remains successful is because of that communication.

Nuf said - CO is still my carrier of choice. They've been smartly managed for many years with great people at all levels. They will take this in stride, heads high and CO will continue to prevail.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
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Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:11 am

All I can say about ALPA already agreeing to the paycuts is THINK AGAIN.

I did NOT say they had agreed to the pay cuts; I said, and listen carefully, that they had agreed with the company on the amount the pilots will take, iether in paycuts, work rule changes and the like. The actualy paycuts are still to be worked out. There is a difference.

The pilots are being asked to shoulder something like 44% of the cuts.

I don't know about that. Field Services is shouldering about 1/5%, or $99 million of the $500 million. That's because we are the largest of the work groups. The pilots are the highest paid, so of course they will shoulder a high burden. But guess what? Everyone is taking the pay cuts, and I really don't care to see the highest paid of front-line employees crying to me about their paycuts. Take it like a pro, and deal with it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ewr757
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:46 am



Not one penny.

Falcon84 you are very mistaken in your assumptions. As far as pilots being the highest paid group, deal with it.
 
Max Q
Posts: 5634
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:11 am

The definition of 'professional' is being paid for what you do, it is also an attitude, just because you question management makes you no less 'professional' I would say the opposite in fact.

It also makes you no less supportive of the airline just because you don't immediately take management at their word and give them what they 'want'
(it has not been proven yet that they need these cuts)

I certainly don't take the union at their word either, but I do not work for them.

I assume you mean the union leadership, we are the union. In fact their recent actions have been very suspect.

It is obvious people feel very passionate about this airline, most of us have devoted our lives to it and you owe it to yourselves to check out what they say before you fork over your hard earned dollars and benefits

While not questioning the need for more and new aircraft I would think, even the most trusting employee might question, why a month after we are told these cuts are vital to the airlines survival an announcement is made that this order is contingent on these same cuts.

Most of the pilots I know including myself would, actually support concessions
if they are proven necessary, this they have certainly not done, in fact a large employee group just received a raise!

Those that say they understand what is happening at this stage I think, unfortunately are deluding themselves.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
wbmech
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:02 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:14 am

What is the company going to do to force the unions into concessions? File for bankruptcy? We have contracts and it is going to be a long fight to get them changed. Continental is still a healthy company when you look at the books. If not, then consider this, CAL bid for Avianca at a package worth over $350 million. Despite oil prices, CAL has shown operating profits for all quarters except for one since 9/11. Cal authorized a new contract for XJT pilots costing $31 million in 2005 alone. I say wait until the company is truly in trouble before considering any givebacks. Once you give something away, you never get it back.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:04 am

Not one penny.

What did that mean? That you refuse to help the company? The company did right by you from '94 till 2001, but now you want to be a stubborn ass, and try to keep every cent, while everyone else takes a pay cut.

Not in this lifetime. You flyboys and girls will have to pitch in just like everyone else. As for you being the highest paid, I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with the crybaby attitude of many pilots, which is not just a CO problem. Pilots seem to whine more than anyone at airlines these days, even though they are the highest compensated.

And if that's your attitude, go work somewhere else.

The definition of 'professional' is being paid for what you do, it is also an attitude, just because you question management makes you no less 'professional' I would say the opposite in fact.

Depends, Max on how you go about questioning management. If you release a press release, giving the pilots all the credit for the company's turnaround during the last negoitiations, that's unprofessional; if it means showing up where Gordon is with barf bags with some idiotic saying on them, that's unprofessional, as happened last negotiations; if it's simply going out and holding a sign saying "unfair labor practices", in a quiet, peaceful manner, that's is professionalism, in my view.

Again, it depends how you make your voice heard-with dignity or acting like a baby.

It is obvious people feel very passionate about this airline, most of us have devoted our lives to it and you owe it to yourselves to check out what they say before you fork over your hard earned dollars and benefits.

I have, and I'm satisfied, looking at the losses that we've incurred over the last several years, plus the plethora of cost-saving meausres we've put in up to this point, that this is about the only answer. You can be suspicious, but suspicion turning into paranoia helps no one.

While not questioning the need for more and new aircraft I would think, even the most trusting employee might question, why a month after we are told these cuts are vital to the airlines survival an announcement is made that this order is contingent on these same cuts.

Again, if you've read it without putting in what you want to read, Max, you'll see it's only contingent on board approval, before the date Boeing has set for us to make up our mind on this deal. It isn't contingent on our pay situation, since there's no up-front cash involved for the 753's/738's, with Boeing paying for the refurbishment of these aircraft, and with the fact that the 7e7 doesn't even come into play for 4 years.

Most of the pilots I know including myself would, actually support concessions if they are proven necessary.

Max, what part of huge losses over the last 3 years do you NOT understand? What part of getting to the point where nothing else can be cut without harming an excellent product do you NOT understand? How much red ink will it take for the unions to say "ok, you've lost enough to convince us"? That's what baffles me about you guys-you'd rather see the company bleed almost to death, before being taken, kicking and screaming like little babies, into wage concessions. Why not do it now, and do it where it takes as little impact as possible, then be stubborn, and finding out later you'll have to lose even more pay? Pilots are supposed to be pretty smart individuals-so why can't you figure that out?

What is the company going to do to force the unions into concessions? File for bankruptcy?

You got it, baby. That's what I'd do in their place. If one or more of the unions are going to act irresponsibly, then I'd tell them do it now, when working with us, or we'll do it without your input. It's your choice. Choose wisely, or don't expect me to give you that first class seat when flying, man.

Continental is still a healthy company

Again, what part of hundreds of millions of dollars in losses do you NOT understand. We've better off than others, but as Gordon has said time and time again, whether you're drowning in 10 feet of water or 1 foot of water, you're still drowning. We WON'T be healthy if we keep incurring losses like we've been incurring.

I say wait until the company is truly in trouble before considering any givebacks.

ROTFL. And you have the brains to fix an aircraft? ROTFL! Yes, let's wait until the company is so deep in trouble that pay cuts probably won't matter, and we'll all lose our jobs. What kind of fool are you?

If you want to wait, then take bigger paycuts (and then you'll still cry like you're doing now, saying the company is unfair) than is being asked for now, and they won't accomplish a God damned thing because it will be too late.

If that is your attitude, and that of most pilots, then I'll put the blame squarely on you when we make another trip to Chapter 11, your contracts are voided by some judge, and you and I suffer even bigger paycuts.

That's what I mean by acting in an unprofessional, irresponsible manner. You aren't a team player, Wbmech. You're only a team player when you get your way. Well, go find a job somewhere else, if you're willing to take this company into the toilet like US is. We really don't need selfish idiots like yourself.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ramerinianair
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:03 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:11 am

When you tell your employees that these cut's are vital for the airline's survival, then a month later order over a Billion dollar's of new aircraft and tell them it is contingent on these same cut's, which is it?
MaxQ,
They are practically stealing these aircraft!!! These a/c will bring in great amounts of $$$ from the international flights they will be/have added! Without their business plan of expanding internationally, where the LCCs cannot compete, they would be in a situation like UA or DL. The employees should be praising the Management instead of trashing them! CO has some of the best management around.
Falcon . . . I totally agree. You have to give a little to get a little isn't just an old addage, it scientifically proved: The "J" Curve!!!!!
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
Max Q
Posts: 5634
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:22 am

Falcon84, you know, I do my best to keep my contributions to this forum free from personal insults, demeaning or criticizing others, in fact I believe that is one of the guidelines for posting.

If you have not discovered this yet, here is a tip for you, when trying to make your point avoid personal attacks because when you do, most people will now only think of your insult and react to that instead of the issue at hand.

Just because you feel strongly about an issue does not give you the right to treat others with such lack of respect and contempt.

I really don't know if you or I are 'right' at the moment but I think we both have something in common, an enthusiasm for aviation that should transcend
bickering, let's keep it civilised shall we?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:25 am

Just because you feel strongly about an issue does not give you the right to treat others with such lack of respect and contempt.

Excuse me, but your crybaby attitude towards this process, and that by Wbmech, is treating me, as a fellow CO employee, with a lack of respect and contempt. Apparently, you want your cake and eat it too, and I find that insulting.

If the unions throw a huge monkey wrench into what's going on, then we'll end up like US or UA. Maybe you want that, but I don't.

Better to swallow a small dose of bad medicine now, to get better sooner, than to get sicker and sicker, and no medicine will help later on. Just think about it that way, Max.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
wbmech
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:02 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:30 am

Professional? How professional is it for a member of management (Assistant Director) to tell us that we have to take concessions or else the company will make us by filing for bankruptcy. To me, that is a very threatening and intimidating statement that cannot be backed up. A few for basic facts, our labor cost as a % of total operating cost is the lowest among large network airlines, as well as America West, Jet Blue, and, yes, Southwest. Our labor cost per ASM is also the lowest among large network carriers as well as Southwest. Again, we have shown operating PROFITS for all quarters, except one, since 9/11. The losses shown by the company are all accounting losses for early retirement of aircraft, security expenses etc. There is still money being wasted within the company, for example our training has been cut down but we still have the same number of training personnel. What are they doing? I'm not saying get rid of them but reassign them elsewhere. That is just one example, I am sure that there is plenty more.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:37 am

Professional? How professional is it for a member of management (Assistant Director) to tell us that we have to take concessions or else the company will make us by filing for bankruptcy.

That's called reality, Wbmech. Look around the industry, my friend. You think CO is the only one in this boat, and is immune from what is going on? Wake up, please!

To me, that is a very threatening and intimidating statement that cannot be backed up.

So is saying that we should wait till the company is in the shitter before even considering concessions. You want to end up like US/UA? What you would do is a recipe for the very same thing.

Again, we have shown operating PROFITS for all quarters, except one, since 9/11.

And if that's the case, what does that tell you? It tells me that if we all take a little bad medicine, in the long run we'll be making ACTUAL, not just OPERATING profits, and we'll all be more secure in our jobs in the long run. Operating profits are nice, but when you're still losing money, especially with the fact fuel prices, and government taxes are rising like crazy, something has to be done. And please, don't tell me that management should work for next to nothing to save you money. That isn't, and shouldn't be an option.

for example our training has been cut down but we still have the same number of training personnel.

Like that will save a whole hell of a lot. It won't. That's small change. That won't cut it.

Again, you show nothing that will lead to significant cost saving. And again, if you want to drive customers away, start taking away customer amenities to save money, and you'll drive away customers in droves.

Once again, a little medicine now, and we can get healthy enough that we won't need to take another dose later. Wait, like you naively suggest, and we'll be on life support like US someday. I have a feeling neither you, Max or I want that, so let's not even head in that direction.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
flybyguy
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:40 am

Falcon84,

You don't buy new aircraft to stay competitive in the airline industry when CO has one of the newest fleets in the industry.

This was a backhand deal with Boeing to help the 7e7 project save face... after all Gordon Bethune has very strong ties with the manufacturer.

You don't order a billion dollars worth of new superfluous jets and then cut employees benefits for the sake of underhanded gentleman's agreements between the higher ups of CO and Boeing.

"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:46 am

You don't buy new aircraft to stay competitive in the airline industry when CO has one of the newest fleets in the industry.

The fleet won't be as new in 2009, will it? You have to keep a competitive edge, especially on international routes. This will let CO do that, and it will be 2009 before you have to worry about the payments. It's a good deal to position CO for the next decade.

As for the 753's/738's, those planes are to be used to help relace the 752's that are going heavy into the international arena out of EWR. You still have markets to serve, even if you take some aircraft away. And getting these planse for, literally, a song and a dance, before someone else can, was a shrewd move for CO.

This was a backhand deal with Boeing to help the 7e7 project save face...

Personal opinion, of which you, my friend, have no facts to back it up. The 7e7 is far from being in a position to "save face", so that's a ludicrous assumption. It's a move that will help CO be positioned for further international expansion, especially in Asia, in the next decade.

You don't order a billion dollars worth of new superfluous jets and then cut employees benefits for the sake of underhanded gentleman's agreements between the higher ups of CO and Boeing.

Again, CO doesn't even start paying on these aircraft for 4 years, so how does that affect employee pay, or visa versa? Again, you can't stop moving forward because of costs going up or down. You have to keep positioning yourself to compete now and in the future. What part of that eludes you?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Max Q
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:00 am

Well Falcon84, it appears you are the only one that is right, certainly no one is going to confuse you with facts, a little politeness will go a long way for you
though old chap.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:04 am

Well Falcon84, it appears you are the only one that is right, certainly no one is going to confuse you with facts, a little politeness will go a long way for you though old chap.

Whatever, Max. I'll stand by what I said. I see nothing but crying from you on here, no solutions. I thought maybe a little dose of non-union fed reality might help you. I was wrong.

But again, you guys fight this, and we'll all suffer more in the long run, from top to bottom. Do you really want that? I don't.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ewr757
Posts: 354
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RE: CO Pay Cuts Falcon

Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:36 am



It sure is glad to have such an "expert" like Falcon tell us all what the pilots need to be doing. He is what a ramper for CO?

If you want to fund the obscene executive bonus programs and foolish fiscal policies (such as paying over .66 gal. for Express Jet fuel) take it out of your check, not mine.

Just because the extent of your education or skills has deposited you on the lower end of the totem pole at CO workforce, don't criticize others who refuse to underwrite and concede their hard earned dollars for this company.

Your cheerleading and demeanor show your either a management shill or someone who is extremely gullible and envious of those more successful than you.

Sounds like you have a person problem.





 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:44 am

It sure is glad to have such an "expert" like Falcon tell us all what the pilots need to be doing. He is what a ramper for CO?

I'm an agent, not a ramper, as if it matters. And I'm not telling the pilots at all what they should do. I'm telling you what I think it would be wise for them NOT to do, and that's cry and whine and fight things that will happen either way, and to make the best of it. Obviously, it has fallen on some deaf ears.

If you want to fund the obscene executive bonus programs and foolish fiscal policies (such as paying over .66 gal. for Express Jet fuel) take it out of your check, not mine.

Tell me, why do unions always focus on what execs make? Execs make that at every corporation, and they're certainly not "obscene" at CO. Sounds like bonus envy to me. And as for fiscal policy, thanks for the laugh. CO is as well-run, fiscally as any airline in the industry. One reason we are not drowning in 10 feet of water has been fiscal responsibility by management and employees. For you to say that is, sorry to say, ignorant.

Just because the extent of your education or skills has deposited you on the lower end of the totem pole at CO workforce, don't criticize others who refuse to underwrite and concede their hard earned dollars for this company

Well it seems my education and/or skills serves me better than just blabbering the union anti-management line, as you do. Seems all you want to do is whine and cry and blame others for your lot, while I would like to see all of us work together, take this medicine as best we can, and get back to profitability.

We won't get there with crybaby stuff like you're showing.

Your cheerleading and demeanor show your either a management shill or someone who is extremely gullible and envious of those more successful than you.

ROTFL. Coming from someone towing a militant unioin line, apparently, that strikes me as amusing. I am certainly no shill, but unlke you, I apparently see what's going on around this industry, and don't have my head buried in the sand as you, MaxQ and Wbmech seemingly do.

Let's do it your way, no pay cuts, no concessions, and you come back to me in a year or two, when losses are mounting, and the company is looking for mor than they're asking for now, and you tell me who is the schill, my friend.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:50 am

Just because the extent of your education or skills has deposited you on the lower end of the totem pole at CO workforce, don't criticize others who refuse to underwrite and concede their hard earned dollars for this company.

Falcon is right... take your eye off the future for a second and it takes months/years to recover. The Asian expansion mentioned briefly in Reply 30 will mean huge business for CO, and the 7E7 purchase puts them in the position to be the industry leader.

CO is doing (relativly) well, but IMO, pay cuts are a very smart move to push them further closer to profitability. Making $$ at the end of the quarter is what matters and no one (even hard working folks) can expect to make top-dollar in our current market conditions. Taking a cut now will mean huge dividens in the future...

[Edited 2005-01-02 22:51:58]
 
copter808
Posts: 1383
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RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:04 am

I don't particularly like seeing how well paid some of our executives are either, but let's consider the alternatives. They HAVE been doing a pretty good job for the most part.

Would we rather cut the executive pay and hire the likes of Steve Wolf, Carl Ichan, or someone similar, even if they would work for free?

If we don't ALL work together today, there will be NO tomorrow! That's a simple and basic fact. The airlines are not what they were 10 or 20 years ago and nobody is guaranteed a job--or pension.
 
ewr757
Posts: 354
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RE: CO Pay Cuts More Falcon Rhetoric

Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:09 am

**I'm an agent, not a ramper, as if it matters. **

It doesn't. What does matter is you're not a pilot, yet you come on this board yapping like a scared little dog spewing misinformation and criticism at anyone who does not share in your belief the sky is falling.

**And I'm not telling the pilots at all what they should do. **

I beg to differ.

**I'm telling you what I think it would be wise for them NOT to do, **

I see, that makes it better?

**and that's cry and whine and fight things that will happen either way,**

I said NO and you call that crying? You always get this menstrual? You think they are a foregone conclusion. Let me give you a clue: There are plenty of very pissed of pilots right now. I seriously doubt should this come to a vote it will pass. Fact is, there is a move a foot already for a vote of no confidence with the MEC and Negotiating committee for even entertaining this idea. Shut up, listen, you might learn something. Not all of us fall for the company
propaganda.

**and to make the best of it. Obviously, it has fallen on some deaf ears.**

Deaf ears. Interesting comment from you.


**Tell me, why do unions always focus on what execs make? Execs make that at every corporation, and they're certainly not "obscene" at CO. **

They are entirely obscene. Especially when you are asking your employees for cuts.

**Sounds like bonus envy to me.**

Sounds like pilot envy from you.

**And as for fiscal policy, thanks for the laugh. CO is as well-run, fiscally as any airline in the industry. **

You are quite ignorant I can see. Go read some SEC filings and ask for just ONE subject which other airlines subsidizes fuel for their regional partner? You call that smart fiscal policy? You want more examples? How about the lease rates on the 737-500's which make them unprofitable? Is that an employee problem?

**One reason we are not drowning in 10 feet of water has been fiscal responsibility by management and employees. **

Due to the fact that CO has had a competitive pilot contract for over 7 years. Not to mention an unreal labor CASM within the industry versus all the other legacy carriers. You can't

**For you to say that is, sorry to say, ignorant.**

Post some facts to back your diatribe and we'll see who is ignorant. Just because you're a scared little boy with nowhere to go or no other skills, doesn't mean we all have to put our tail between our legs.


**Well it seems my education and/or skills serves me better than just blabbering the union anti-management line, as you do.**

Yes, I see it has taken you far in life.

**Seems all you want to do is whine and cry and blame others for your lot,**

Your running off on a tangent here. Calm down, take a deep breath, drink a glass of water.

**while I would like to see all of us work together, take this medicine as best we can, and get back to profitability.**

Wow......you are far gone. I don't consider this medicine. I consider it taking advantage of your employees before the revenue environment picks up.


**ROTFL. Coming from someone towing a militant unioin line, apparently, that strikes me as amusing. **

What strikes me as amusing is you let your arguments debilitate towards some lame rhetoric about a militant union line constantly.

**I am certainly no shill, **

Then you're just an idiot?

**but unlke you, I apparently see what's going on around this industry, and don't have my head buried in the sand as you, MaxQ and Wbmech seemingly do.**

Tell you what, you worry about your pay as an agent, I'll worry about my pay and benefits as a pilot. You don't see me here "whining" about what you should be doing.

Now go read some financials and get back to us with some logic instead of your wailing. In the very least, instead of ignoring one glaring money pit I described about ExpressJet, how about an adult reply instead of ignoring it? Or are you to scared I may be right?




[Edited 2005-01-02 23:17:31]

[Edited 2005-01-02 23:21:36]

[Edited 2005-01-02 23:25:19]
 
Max Q
Posts: 5634
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:10 am

I find it truly incredible that with all of the information available to people, the only source they consider valid is from management's pr

These people are paid to tell those they have a vested interest in convincing that things are as bad as you can possibly imagine. They prey on all your fears
tell you 'just take a little pain now and it will be better than a lot later' turn employees against each other 'if it wasn't for those greedy pilots bla, bla, bla'

If you cannot stand back and at least attempt an objective point of view, but prefer to belittle those that stand up for themselves and at least find out for themselves if these sacrifices are necessary, then you are just playing into management's hands.

It doesn't make you a better employee or more noble than others, just an easy mark.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
ewr757
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts Revolution

Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:16 am

**Falcon is right... Take your eye off the future for a second and it takes months/years to recover. The Asian expansion mentioned briefly in Reply 30 will mean huge business for CO, and the 7E7 purchase puts them in the position to be the industry leader. **

Those aircraft are coming in 2009, if ever. The point is, you don't ask your employees to underwrite your captial costs, or your operating expenses

**CO is doing (relativly) well, but IMO, pay cuts are a very smart move to push them further closer to profitability.**

How about canceling the $49 million stock payout plan for executives? If I saw a true effort on management to cut their pay and lead by example I would listen. It is insulting to claim they cut pay when there is no mention of raises prior to that announcement and no talk of suspending future obscene bonus programs.

**Making $$ at the end of the quarter is what matters and no one (even hard working folks) can expect to make top-dollar in our current market conditions. Taking a cut now will mean huge dividens in the future...**

Top dollar? CO pilots have lagged far beyond the industry for years. After concessionary contracts at Northwest and Delta, we are still far behind. CO's labor CASM is extremely competitive. They have a non labor CASM problem due to other factors which employees should not be expected to pay for.

My vote will be a resounding NO. I am not alone with that feeling either.
 
ContinentalCLE
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2000 12:13 pm

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:19 am

You have to agree with ewr757 he makes a few good eye opening points.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:08 am

It doesn't. What does matter is you're not a pilot, yet you come on this board yapping like a scared little dog spewing misinformation and criticism at anyone who does not share in your belief the sky is falling.

Misinformation? How's that? I'm saying one thing: if we listen to you and what you want done, or not done, we'll soon find ourselves in a USAir-type bind. I'm making one point: take the pain now, or take a world of hurt later. What do you want? And "neither" isn't an option any longer, so that's out of the question.

Other than that, I don't know about what "misinformation" you're referring to. If it's the fact that you and many of your union colleagues want to fight this to the bitter end, I don't think I'm at all putting out misinformation. I think that's the truth. I DO, also think, in the end, that on Feb 28th, your union and your membership will do the right thing, and take the share of the wage concessions assigned to you.

I see, that makes it better?

Depends if you are bothering to listen to the opinon or not.

You think they are a foregone conclusion.

Yes, in fact, I think they are. Next question.

There are plenty of very pissed of pilots right now.

Pissed off? Why, for God's sake? You think you're above the rest of us or something? I'm not happy with it either, but like I said, I seem to understand, better than you, what the industry is going through. You seem to think, from what I gather, that we're just fine ,and, as usual from a union perspective, everything is management's fault, which is a bunch of nonsense. We're the best run airline in the states, and we have the best workforce in the states, and I think it's a combination of LCC influece, high fuel prices and a still-soft market that are doing us in, not exec bonuses and management fiscal irresponsibility, as you seem to think.

We've been bucking the trend for 3 or four years now, holding the line on wages, and, in many cases, INCREASING wages, while other carriers have been slashing billions and billions in wages. Honestly, did you really think we'd be immune if the red ink didn't stop? I can see you being upset, but the pissed off part just blows my mind, to be honest.

I seriously doubt should this come to a vote it will pass

Fine, then when we go back into bankruptcy, I'll be sure to thank you for your intrastringence and unwillingness to do what's right for the company.

Shut up, listen

I've been listening. It sounds like union propoganda to me.

You are quite ignorant I can see.

 Laugh out loud I'm no economic genius, but I don't have my head so far in the clouds, I guess, that I can't see what's going on around me.

Sounds like pilot envy from you.

You wish.

They are entirely obscene. Especially when you are asking your employees for cuts.

Gee, did you miss the part where management says they're taking cuts, as much as 25% on their pay? You must have, else you wouldn't make such a comment. They aren't obscene-only to you, because you make a political football out of something that execs get at every company. Some people think what you make is obscene, but I don't see you complaining about it.

Due to the fact that CO has had a competitive pilot contract for over 7 years.

Yes, the sob story of how bad off our pilots are. You make very good money, and you deserve it, but don't go telling me how bad off you are. You voted for the contract, remember.

Yes, I see it has taken you far in life.

Taken me far enough, living a good life, and enjoying it. I guess you can run the airline all by yourself, right?  Laugh out loud

I consider it taking advantage of your employees before the revenue environment picks up.

That statement is appalling in it's ignorance. The revenue enviornment WON'T pick up. LCC's are driving the prices of tickets. Oil is going to stay high; government keeps piling on taxes on an industry alread over-burdened with them. Maybe you have this pie-in-the sky belief that everything will come right if we just wait, but if we just wait, we may end up like UA and US. I don't think either of us wants that. Again, EVERYONE is taking these cuts. You act as if you alone are bearing this burden that is coming.

Then you're just an idiot?

I expected better from a pilot who, obviously, is far superior to me in ever respect. I"m disappointed, really.

Tell you what, you worry about your pay as an agent, I'll worry about my pay and benefits as a pilot. You don't see me here "whining" about what you should be doing.

That's probably because 1. you don't give a shit about agents, and 2. becuase you're too worried about yourself and not the company.

Or are you to scared I may be right?

I know you're not, in the broad scope of things, which is why I'm throwing it right back in your face.  Smile

I find it truly incredible that with all of the information available to people, the only source they consider valid is from management's pr

And I should trust your union? After watching what happened to EA, when both union and management drove the airline into the ground, I don't trust either 100%. But this company has treated me more than fairly since Bethune took over in 1994. I received pay raises between '94 and '99 that no union could have gotten for me, and my life improved dramatically because of it. After years of mismanagement from the likes of Lorenzo and Ferguson, et al, I know this management team has been more honest with employees than any since I started almost 18 years ago. I trust them more than your union.

These people are paid to tell those they have a vested interest in convincing that things are as bad as you can possibly imagine. They prey on all your fears

And your union does the same thing. Pot calling the kettle black. Only difference is the union is worried about itself. Management is trying to run a business and make a profit. Without the company, your union is useless.

If you cannot stand back and at least attempt an objective point of view

I'd say I'm completely objective, Max. I'm member of neither management or the union. I have no desire to be in either, for my own reasons. But I do trust this management to the extent that they've done right by me and this company since 1994, and I will give them a little benefit of the doubt. After watching airline unions for 18 years, I can't give them that same benefit of doubt. Just my view, man.

Those aircraft are coming in 2009, if ever. The point is, you don't ask your employees to underwrite your captial costs, or your operating expenses.

You make a good point on the "if ever" EWR757. A very valid point. If conditions warrent, we can always cancel that order, much as AA did with the 738's we're picking up for a song and a dance, and what has it cost us? Nothing! We aren't paying for them now, so we're not underwriting anything, are we. But if the conditions improve, as we all hope they will (on that, I think we're agreed), then we've positioned ourselves to do some serious expansion with a state-of-the art aircraft that will jump-start us into the next decade. It is a no-lose proposition, as far as the 7e7 goes.

How about canceling the $49 million stock payout plan for executives?

So, you're telling me only management should feel any pain in this? Note, Ewr757: EVERY CORPORATION HAS SUCH PLANS. It's the way business is done. It's the way to attract talented people into management positions. Again, you sound envious of it. But in the long run, that $49 million isn't a whole lot of money, except as a PR point for disgruntled pilots.

If I saw a true effort on management to cut their pay and lead by example I would listen.

Well, then you're not listening, because Kellner and the top brass are taking $25 percent paycuts, and didn't take their bonus for 2004. They are cutting their pay, you're just ignoring that fact.

My vote will be a resounding NO. I am not alone with that feeling either.

Fine. Cya in bankruptcy court, where you'll have to fork over even more. It's your decison, man, not mine. Pay a little now, or a lot more later.

I guess "working together" only counts when you get what you want?

As for arguing any further, I guess, Max, Ewr757 and Wbmech, we'll have to agree to disagree. We're not getting anywhere. You must be used to that, though, sounds like a union/management negotiating session.  Smile


[Edited 2005-01-03 00:20:25]
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
wbmech
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:02 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:58 am

Not only are there plenty of very pissed off pilots right now, but there are just as many pissed off mechanics, FA's, rampers, agents, and even some management. I have already witnessed rampers and agents not working as hard as they used to as well as morale fall in general. Therefore I highly doubt it is a union/management fight going on.
 
Max Q
Posts: 5634
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:01 am

Question for you, Falcon84 'January 20th, 2009 Can't come fast enough' sounds like you're a democrat, you have a surprisingly fierce anti-union stance for someone allied with that party.

[Edited 2005-01-03 01:02:50]
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
coair
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:36 pm

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:20 am

I have a document that says, if the field services employees don't take any benefit cuts then the pay cut will be as much as 17.7%....wow....
 
ewr757
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts Falcon

Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:37 am

**Misinformation? How's that? I'm saying one thing: if we listen to you and what you want done, or not done, we'll soon find ourselves in a USAir-type bind.**

No, you're forcing your onesided opinion without listen to any financial facts. You have taken the bait hook line and sinker from the press spin at CO. I'm not saying everything is perfect, but I feel from valid data and reading factual SEC filings and the like, we are not in as dire condition as you have even made to believe.


**I'm making one point: take the pain now, or take a world of hurt later.**

Again, that is a two way street. You sure seem to have no problem seeing our pay cut because we make more money? As a rude reply right back at you, why do you feel I should take more of a paycut because you are only an agent? Is it my fault you didn't get the education experience to fly? To put up with years of crap wages in GA or serving your country in the military. Sorry pal, my expectations are a bit higher than yours due to what it took to get me where I am today. Not an insult, just a fact.

**What do you want? And "neither" isn't an option any longer, so that's out of the question.**

It is only not an option for those that don't take the time to read anything other than the Daily News Update

** I don't know about what "misinformation" you're referring to.**

Your posts are full of misinformation, and mischaracterizations of the process and what is actually happening. But what do I know? You're an agent with a real pulse on the pilot group, and I am just some 767 Captain who doesn't attend any pilot meetings, I never talk to others in the crew rooms, nothing is ever said in the cockpit about this. Yes, you are really a beacon of information here.


**If it's the fact that you and many of your union colleagues want to fight this to the bitter end,**

If you would take the time to read the filings (are you starting to see a common theme here) you might not be so scared.

**I don't think I'm at all putting out misinformation. I think that's the truth.**

You do. If that is how you feel, go ahead and donate that pay. I am not stopping you one bit.

**I DO, also think, in the end, that on Feb 28th, your union and your membership will do the right thing, and take the share of the wage concessions assigned to you.**

Assigned to you? You are really out of touch with reality.

**Depends if you are bothering to listen to the opinion or not.**

Like you? Now that is funny. I notice that I have offered several small facts but you ignore them? Why is that?

**Yes, in fact, I think they are. Next question.**

Can your crystal ball tell me the next winning lotto numbers?


**Pissed off? Why, for God's sake? You think you're above the rest of us or something? **

I said that where?

**I'm not happy with it either, but like I said, I seem to understand, better than you, what the industry is going through. **

No, you are being played like a fiddle and exploited. I am truly sorry that you do not take the time to read or possible lack the ability to understand what is actually happening with the company in a financial sense. It appears the extent of your knowledge is derived from the dnu and newspaper articles.


**You seem to think, from what I gather, that we're just fine ,and, as usual from a union perspective, everything is management's fault, which is a bunch of nonsense.**

Yes, your comment is nonsense. Again it degrades into a union argument. It is clear you have a real problem with the union.

**We're the best run airline in the states, and we have the best workforce in the states, **

Cutting pay is a real good way to show that. You can kiss this attitude goodbye very soon. From flying the line all over the world I have seen a marked change in attitude. Now I know your view from the podium once again is a broader picture than what I see.....

**and I think it's a combination of LCC influece, high fuel prices and a still-soft market that are doing us in, not exec bonuses and management fiscal irresponsibility, as you seem to think. **

Riiiiiiiiiggggggghhhht which LCC commands a premium in International markets? Why didn't CO spend money to hedge fuel? Why do you feel employees need to underwrite the cost of doing business..i.e. fuel? If Chelsea suddenly said we can't afford to put lettuce on sandwiches anymore shall we pay for that as well? Soft market? HAve you tried to use your pass privileges lately? And I am not talking about over the holidays either.

**We've been bucking the trend for 3 or four years now, holding the line on wages, and, in many cases, INCREASING wages,**

Is that right? I haven't had a pay raise since 1998.

**while other carriers have been slashing billions and billions in wages.**

Getting down right to where the pilots are now at CO. Your point?

**Honestly, did you really think we'd be immune if the red ink didn't stop?**

Figure lie and liars figure. Old accounting phrase. Do us all a favor, again read up on the quarterlies, SEC's 10Q's and then come back with a more informed non emotional sky is falling attitude. I'll debate act all day long with you.

**I can see you being upset, but the pissed off part just blows my mind, to be honest.**

Seeing as how you're not one of us (pilot) why should I expect anything else?
I wouldn't dare be so arrogant to imply what or why an agent should be upset about.

**Fine, then when we go back into bankruptcy, **

If that is what it is going to take then fine. You refuse to accept the CASM problem is not an labor problem. It is costs due to inefficiencies and other matters not related to employee costs. Management is asking you to subsidize factors beyond your control. Like I have told you over and over, if that is what you want to do go ahead. I am not stopping you. However, your continued belly aching about "unions", "pilots" they make higher pay ad nauseum is arrogant.


**I'll be sure to thank you for your intrastringence and unwillingness to do what's right for the company.**

The company has scored a direct hit with you. They are dividing and conquer amongst the employee groups. Those nasty pilots won't take a pay cut etc. etc. etc. Works perfect to deflect anger at the real culprits of what is happening. Sorry that you have been so easily swayed.


**I've been listening. It sounds like union propaganda to me.**

You're a lost cause.

**I'm no economic genius, **

That is an understatement

**but I don't have my head so far in the clouds, I guess, that I can't see what's going on around me.*

**Gee, did you miss the part where management says they're taking cuts, as much as 25% on their pay? **

Gee did you miss the sleight fact the when JS and LK moved up to their new positions a few months ago, they increased the pay for those same job classifications? Gee did you miss the fact they will still get bonus pay for 2005 an d beyond? Gee did you miss the fact that with their "paycuts" they are still 6 - 8 percent ahead of where they'd be year over year?

**They aren't obscene-only to you, because you make a political football out of something that execs get at every company.**

So true. So untrue at financial underperforming companies. If you're fine with your pay going to, for on e thing that $49 million payout. Go right ahead.

**Some people think what you make is obscene, but I don't see you complaining about it.**

That's is because I consider the source. When you can hand fly a jet down to minimums in a stiff crosswind with an engine out. Then I'll listen.

**Yes, the sob story of how bad off our pilots are. You make very good money, and you deserve it, but don't go telling me how bad off you are.**

I said that? Where? When? Which message? Your color green with envy gets darker with each message.


**You voted for the contract, remember.**

Which was, at the time, a substantial improvement over C95. They were both sorely lacking amongst our peers.

**Taken me far enough, living a good life, and enjoying it. I guess you can run the airline all by yourself, right? **

Huh?

>>That statement is appalling in it's ignorance.<<

No, not really.

>>The revenue environment WON'T pick up. <<

So you're saying cut the pay to make the differnce. And what has paycuts done for U? For UAL? Name one airline that cutting pay has saved.

**LCC's are driving the prices of tickets.**

Yes, those PAris flights I fly are influenced by JB and SWA.

**Oil is going to stay high;**

Not an employee problem. If it goes to $100 a barrel are you going to work for free? Or shall we just keep letting the inds=ustry handicap itself on the backs of all emplyees?

**government keeps piling on taxes on an industry alread over-burdened with them.**

true, but not an employee problem

**Maybe you have this pie-in-the sky belief that everything will come right if we just wait, but if we just wait, we may end up like UA and US. **

You mean like CO's stratgey to wait for them to fail?

**I don't think either of us wants that. Again, EVERYONE is taking these cuts. You act as if you alone are bearing this burden that is coming.**

Perhaps, perhaps not. One thing is for sure, so far I have not heard one pilot say they will vote for concessions. I'm sure you deal with many more than i do right?

****I expected better from a pilot who, obviously, is far superior to me in ever respect. I"m disappointed, really.

Tell you what, you worry about your pay as an agent, I'll worry about my pay and benefits as a pilot. You don't see me here "whining" about what you should be doing.

**That's probably because 1. you don't give a shit about agents, and 2. becuase you're too worried about yourself and not the company.**

1) It is not that I don't "care" about other employees. I don't share you r arrogance in the blanket statement that we should do something because we either make more than you. I also don't pretend to know what is right for another employees group to decide based on their particular jobs. Unlike you.

2) I am not worried about myself since my financial house is in order. I'll start worryng about the company when I see real efforts by managemnt to fix the fundamental problems and stop enriching themselves.


**I know you're not, in the broad scope of things, which is why I'm throwing it right back in your face. **

Oh my...is that what you';re doing. And here I thought you were just making a fool of yourself. My mistak


**You make a good point on the "if ever" EWR757. A very valid point. If conditions warrent, we can always cancel that order, much as AA did with the 738's we're picking up for a song and a dance, and what has it cost us? Nothing! **

Not so fast. It has cost us plenty. If you read the financials (HINT HINT HINT) in the last quarter of 2003, we deffred delivery on several 737-800's until 2008. CO paid a $14 million dollar penelty for that. We also have parked MD-80's a paid a fortune in fee's some up to 27% of their value for a 20 year old aircraft. IYou should note that CO would of been profitable without those writedowns. How convienent. Remeber last month the reason was we needed to reduce capaicty and get rid of the aircraft. Now we need capacity? You don't see a problem here?

**We aren't paying for them now, so we're not underwriting anything, are we. **

Of course we are not paying fo rthem now. The day we take delivery we are. What is your point?

**But if the conditions improve, as we all hope they will (on that, I think we're agreed), then we've positioned ourselves to do some serious expansion with a state-of-the art aircraft that will jump-start us into the next decade. It is a no-lose proposition, as far as the 7e7 goes.**

Great for the company. Next time you go to make your mortgae payment, short them 27% or 8%. Just tell them we're flying all these shiny new airplanes around to make up for it. I'm sure they will understand.

**So, you're telling me only management should feel any pain in this?**

No, I'm saying paying 13 people $49 million while you're cutting pay from the grunts is disgusting.

**Note, Ewr757: EVERY CORPORATION HAS SUCH PLANS. It's the way business is done. It's the way to attract talented people into management positions. Again, you sound envious of it. But in the long run, that $49 million isn't a whole lot of money, except as a PR point for disgruntled pilots.**

Not a whole lot of money? Wow....that alone iis 10% percent of the "needed" cuts? Talk abot PR and spin


**Well, then you're not listening, because Kellner and the top brass are taking $25 percent paycuts, and didn't take their bonus for 2004. They are cutting their pay, you're just ignoring that fact.**

Already discussed. Look at the pay year over year and do the math. It really isn't that difficult.

**Fine. Cya in bankruptcy court, where you'll have to fork over even more. It's your decison, man, not mine. Pay a little now, or a lot more later.**

This company is nowhere close to bankruptcy. Besides, management wouldn't endanger their present golden parachute.

**I guess "working together" only counts when you get what you want?**

I guess funding the future only applies to executive compnesation.

I notice you didn't answer the several points I brought. Express Jet fuel and such. Why is that?


[Edited 2005-01-03 01:38:03]

[Edited 2005-01-03 01:39:45]

[Edited 2005-01-03 01:53:24]
 
calpilot
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 1999 5:16 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:32 am

EWR757,

go watch the ALPA Update DVD "Nov.2004".

My vote is for the paycuts now, not after we are already in the toilet.

This is not some made up "land grab", our futures are not being dictated by quarterly resultes; but by our access to the Capital markets, and Long term debt.

As '05 moves on our CASM will NOT be in position to compete with B6, or a "None" contract US. While RASM is not expected to recover on the Eastern seabard.

EWR '87
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2609
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:37 am

I don't mean to butt into your argument here, but I have a few questions as a pax that is fiercely loyal to CO. My family always flies CO, and whenever our family friends go on vacation and ask me for help, I always steer them towards CO, convincing them of a happy workforce that isn't about to strike (many of them have heard the news about US during Christmas).

When I first read the news release that paycuts were being announced for the CO employees, I was sorely disappointed. Previously, I was proud to see that while all of the other carriers were forced to ask their employees for paycuts and morale went down the tubes, CO didn't have to ask their employees for anything. However, once I learned that CO employees would be receiving smaller paychecks, I thought that although the employees clearly wouldn't be too pleased (even though I'm only 16, I can understand that having one's paycheck become smaller each week is not fun), the team atmosphere at CO would allow the employees to understand the necessity of the paycuts.

Clearly, with the exception of Falcon84 and Calpilot, the CO employees have not been receptive to having their wages cut. Apparently everyone is now pissed off and ready to strike and morale has sunk tremendously. I'm flying EWR-SJU next Thursday, and from what you describe, I'll be shocked if the pilot shows up to work and the F/A's aren't spitting at us because they are so mad about their reduced wages. Please tell me that things haven't become too horrible at CO - I have always been so pleased to know that while everyone else is having labor troubles, CO is taking things in stride. I hope that things don't deteriorate even further - I would find it very hard to be an advocate for an airline whose workforce is seemingly ready to strike.

[Edited 2005-01-03 02:44:23]
 
calpilot
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 1999 5:16 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:04 am

I'm not being receptive, just realistic, I do read the 10k and 8k and other information that is available which shows certain painful things are required.

Yes, people are not happy, and yes, people are talking alot about this behind doors. But no one is striking, and no one is spitting. For now you'll have to travel U and UAL for most of that.

However, our company is no different in many respects, and Managment will need to lead by real example, not just "lip service".
 
ewr757
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO Pay Cuts

Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:15 am

**go watch the ALPA Update DVD "Nov.2004".**

I watched it. This is coming from the same folks earlier telling us to wait for a better negotiating environment? This coming from the same group about to have a No Confidence resolution put forth from the EWR 170 council? This DVD was comprised of the same group trying to shove PBS down our throats?

They were able to complie all this data and decide with just a couple of days of work? Were you at the EWR LEC meeting on the 7th?

**My vote is for the paycuts now, not after we are already in the toilet.**

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

**This is not some made up "land grab", our futures are not being dictated by quarterly results; but by our access to the Capital markets, and Long term debt.**

Our access to the capitol markets were hampered by spending $2B on stock buyback to pump the share price. Who benefited from that? Certainly that would of been better spent on debt repayment or capital improvements. The markets sure didn't have a problem financing the last aircraft purchase? Do you find the timing of these announcements a bit odd? Shall we continue to subsidize ExpressJet? Are you willing to donate your pay to a $49 M cash payout? Was it right for SA)">GB to take a 30 year credit for retirement?

**As '05 moves on our CASM will NOT be in position to compete with SA)">B6, or a "None" contract US. While RASM is not expected to recover on the Eastern seabard.**

SA)">B6 has how many widebody Captains? SA)">B6 has how many 20 + year employees? SA)">B6 pays their executives what type of salaries? SA)">B6 flies to how many European and Pacific Destinations? SA)">B6 Flies to which Mexican , SA and LA cities?

The problem is not a labor CASM. SWA makes money with a LAbor CASM almost identical to ours. CO needs to run the airline more efficiently, renegotiate leases, increase utilization for a start. When I see some real attempts at fixing efficiencies, dumping obscene bonus plans I'll be more than happy to take a hit in pay. Until then, my vote will be no.


[Edited 2005-01-03 03:16:43]

[Edited 2005-01-03 03:18:42]

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