berlinflyer
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:47 pm

Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:09 am

Will dba order Boeing or Airbus? Which types will it be and what new routes can be expected?
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:14 am

Is DBA planning to replace their current fleet?

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Ndebele
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RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:37 am

Is DBA planning to replace their current fleet?
Yes they are, at least on the long run. One more second-hand 733 can be expected in February, another one in March or April, but a decission for 737NG or A319 is expected for 2005 (whatever this means). Some other forum topics said that the 737NG would be favoured by DBA, but there has of course not been any official statement from DBA yet. I think it also depends on their possible closer connection to Air Berlin.
 
berlinflyer
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:47 pm

RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:42 am

What have you heard about connections to Air Berlin? Germania was in discussions with dba, but Air Berlin?
 
Ndebele
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RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:52 am

I'm not 100% sure because it's already a few months ago. Some newspapers speculated about DBA and Air Berlin working together in the future, but I can't remember any details. Anyway, Air Berlin is working together with many airlines, be it Niki or Hapag-Lloyd.

As far as the Germania/DBA connection goes, didn't DBA just pick up Germania's 733? I haven't heard anything about a possible cooperation.
 
Sabena332
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RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:07 am

Yes they are, at least on the long run. One more second-hand 733 can be expected in February, another one in March or April, but a decission for 737NG or A319 is expected for 2005 (whatever this means).

Interesting, I didn't hear about that before.

A little bit off-topic but Mr Woehrl seems to become the attention whore among the German airline CEO's, I saw him and his wife in at least two talkshows during the last weeks, unfortunately he didn't talk about the future of his airline but at least he did a good job with bashing Lufthansa. The best was his appearance in the JBK show, Mr Kerner asked him where he is coming from and he said: "Nuremberg", then Kerner again: "I know that your airline isn't flying from Nuremberg to Hamburg, did you fly on Lufthansa today?", Woehrl again: "Are you kidding? I don't fly Lufthansa because I have my pride" .

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Udo
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RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:52 am

After that statement about LH, I like Mr. Wöhrl even more than before!  Big thumbs up


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
columba
Posts: 5045
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RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:20 am

This is just my speculation but there are some reasons why I think it could be an order of 737NG.
First of all DBA is flying 737 already and are perfectly happy with them -okay, no you could say Air Berlin was a long time 737 customer, too. But first of all you can´t compare Air Berlin and DBA and this is a very different situation.
Secondly Boeing has a new sales team and wouldn´t give up the german market. Since they already lost Air Berlin to Airbus. They will try to make the best deal.
But again, this is just my speculation.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
A350
Posts: 1012
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RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:39 pm

I think for DBA both A and B are ok. They will just pick the best package.

A350
 
A388
Posts: 7190
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:19 pm

Columba,

I'm not that familiar with the German aviation market but could you explain why Air Berlin is different than DBA? Why wouldn't DBA be interested in the A320 family?

Regards,

A388
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:36 pm

I thought the cash flow situation at DBA was not that healthy with the onslaught of LCC in the german market, and would have thought ordering new aircrafts would be low on their list of priorites.
 
A350
Posts: 1012
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RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:45 pm

I thought the cash flow situation at DBA was not that healthy with the onslaught of LCC in the german market, and would have thought ordering new aircrafts would be low on their list of priorites.

When the expire date of your leasing contracts approaches, acquiring new a/c may well climb on your list of priorities  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

A350
 
columba
Posts: 5045
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RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:02 am

@A388

Air Berlin has two different markets. First of all it is still a charter airline -which their old main business, they started with as "Air Berlin USA" in the 1970s (with 707s).
Due to the success of all the other LCC around like Easyjet and Ryanair, they decided a few years ago to go into that market, too.

DBA on the other hand was once "Deutsche British Airways" (German British Airways)-like the name says it was the German subsidiary of British Airways.
Since the airline was not successful BA sold it to Mr. Woehrl -a man who made his fortune in fashion AFAIK.
Since that DBA has to change everything that is still a reminder of their roots with British Airways (that is why they had to remove the blue belly on their aircraft to plain white and the name Deutsche British Airways had to be changed into just DBA. DBA was the offical abbreviation on their aircrafts before but now it has no meaning at all). DBA is flying mostly routes within Germany while Air Berlin "flies Europe" (We Fly Europe -is or was their nonsense slogan).

The situation of Air Berlin and DBA is completely different. Air Berlin wanted to expand and grow with their order.
I didn´t mean to say that DBA is not interested in Airbus Aircraft at all. But in my opinion Boeing 737s would make much more sense for them.
DBA is buying or leasing new aircrafts to replace their existing fleet. Since DBA has already a lot of Pilots with 737 type rating the training costs wouldn´t be to high. DBA is not one of the wealthiest airlines in Germany. Air Berlin is the second largest airline after Lufthansa. Air Berlin bought these A320 family aircraft in addition to their 737-800 fleet and not as a replacement. They have to hire new pilots and maintenance crew anyway. Besides Mr. Hunold the CEO of AB was very angry with Boeing and took the next plane to Toulouse after the sales people in Seatle were warning him not to expand so fast and wouldn´t give him the price he wanted Big grin

[Edited 2005-01-03 21:13:11]

[Edited 2005-01-03 21:14:03]
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
A388
Posts: 7190
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RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:11 am

Thanks for the information Columba. I now know more about Air Berlin and DBA. I didn't know that Air Berlin would use the A320 order to expand only. I thaught they were also meant to replace the existing 737 fleet. Is it really true that Boeing sales people told DBA not to expand too quickly? A salesman's goal is to sell as many as they can, right? Why would these salesmen advise not to chose their product if they approach them (Boeing) for a possible aircraft order?

Regards,

A388
 
Planesmart
Posts: 1768
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RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:31 am

A350

'When the expire date of your leasing contracts approaches, acquiring new a/c may well climb on your list of priorities.'

Most leases are for fixed terms, with a right of renewal, sometimes at the same rate, sometimes at a reduced rate.

The majority of leases are renewed, many times.

Only time a leasing company won’t be keen to renew a lease, is if the airline’s financial position has deteriorated, or if they have sold or leased the a/c to another party.

Most airlines try to re-negotiate an existing lease as renewal approaches. Sweeteners to encourage extensions can include a lower rate, more hours/cycles at same lease rate, lease holiday (say 1 month pa refunded), refurbishment, or newer a./c at the same rate.

There are a surprising number of a/c leased from related companies / individuals, usually for tax or asset protection reasons.

Essentially, if an a/c is in good condition, reliable, perceived as comparable to competitor fleets, not an orphan model/variant, suitable for routes/traffic, & meets legislative / operating rules (noise, etc), then usually >50% chance lease will be renewed.

However, when there are lots of idle, or perhaps soon to be idle aircraft in the market place, leasing companies are very aggressive, including extending leases before the renewal date, at a discount. To persuade an airline to switch leasing company, deals include free refurbishment/painting and/or long lease holidays (depends on term, but can be 6mths or more).

Aviation finance is specialised, so it’s not unusual to receive proposals from multiple sources for the same airline, and even same aircraft. Often posturing by the airline to get a better deal from an existing leasing company.

Just because DBA leases are reportedly expiring, doesn't follow the fleet will be changing.
 
columba
Posts: 5045
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Will Dba Order Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:53 am

"Is it really true that Boeing sales people told DBA not to expand too quickly? A salesman's goal is to sell as many as they can, right? Why would these salesmen advise not to chose their product if they approach them (Boeing) for a possible aircraft order?"

Actually they warned AB and not DBA  Big grin
Well, that it was I heard. The reason was or is said to be that it was Boeing´s policy not to sell to many 737NGs to start up low cost carriers and carriers like Air Berlin who take a high risk with such a large order (-and especially not to a bargain price these airlines demand) just for the reason that if the airline went bankrupt they would be to many brand new 737s on the market which would ruin the price. I guess with Air Berlin it was more a question of the price. Mr Hunold wanted the same deal Boeing offered Ryanair and didn´t get it, so he went to the opponent.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong