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STT757
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Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:29 pm

Here's a quote from an AWST article about the 7E7;

"ONE ADVANTAGE the 7E7 had over Airbus' competing products--both the existing A330-200 and planned A350--is a weight savings brought about by extensive use of composite structures, a JAL official commented. Japan's airport landing fees, based on aircraft weight, are the highest in the world".

That advantage would work well for an airline like NWA with extensive Asia operations based primarily out of NRT but also KIX and Nagoya.

The other advantage;

The 7E7 (300 series) can probably (not sure if this is confirmed yet) operate out of LGA.
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aaflt1871
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:58 pm

The 7E7 (300 series) can probably (not sure if this is confirmed yet) operate out of LGA.


Where would they fly from LGA with this plane? LGA just like DCA is restricted to flights within a 1500 mile perimeter with DCA given a few exemptions to operate further out. They cannot go coast to coast out of LGA, International is out of the question. I think it would be a waste to fly them to DTW or MSP out of LGA when the 7E7 is designed for long thin routes. I really do not think LGA would have anything to do with a NW decision to be honest.

Rob

[Edited 2005-01-03 05:00:03]
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rjpieces
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:06 pm

Where would they fly from LGA with this plane? LGA just like DCA is restricted to flights within a 1500 mile perimeter with DCA given a few exemptions to operate further out. They cannot go coast to coast out of LGA, International is out of the question. I think it would be a waste to fly them to DTW or MSP out of LGA when the 7E7 is designed for long thin routes. I really do not think LGA would have anything to do with a NW decision to be honest.

Flights from hubs to LGA are usually the busiest/most important route for an airline (NW DTW-LGA, DL ATL-LGA, AA ORD/DFW-LGA, UA ORD-LGA for example). And the 7E7-300 is designed for Medium capacity, short/medium haul routes....Would be perfect for DTW-LGA, ATL-LGA, etc.
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gigneil
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:07 pm

The 7E7-3 is obviously not designed for long thin routes.


STT757-

Landing fees at NRT is a valid line of reasoning, but its arguable NW could easily offset the value of the landing fees with the extra revenue possible on the A350-900.

I don't think LGA matters that entirely much for NW. Their existing schedule to LGA isn't packed full of 753s all day.


I really don't expect NW to order the 7E7. It just doesn't make sense. They have a brand new fleet of A330s, and they're not known to randomly order new types. They're going to want to maximize their existing fleet.

N
 
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STT757
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:13 pm

"I really do not think LGA would have anything to do with a NW decision to be honest."

What Im saying is that the 7E7 has a broad line of commanality that includes intercontinental 800 and 900 series as well as short range 300 series aircraft with shorter wing spans which would allow an airline such as NWA to replace their 757s on Domestic routes such as LGA with 7E7-300s as well as operate 7E7-800/900s to fly to places such as Nagoya.

The A330 is pretty much useless to NWA as a Domestic aircraft because it's not optimized for short hops, and it's huge wing span take up too much ramp space at hubs like DTW or small regional business airports such as LGA where NWA currently flies 757s.

The 7E7 fills both critical roles for NWA, thus allowing them to consolidate their fleets to have an aircraft that suits both Domestic routes and Intercontinental routes.

The 7E7-800/900 as mentioned in the article is substantially lighter than the A330/A350, when your charged landing fees at your most important International hub (NRT) by weight the 7E7 offers a huge cost savings.

And having an identical aircraft in your fleet optimized to operate on shorter high frequency hops with a wing span that would allow it to squeeze in with Narrowbodies at DTW or LGA realizes huge savings for an airline like NWA.
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kim777fan
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:26 pm

Being a Detroiter and an NWA frequent flyer, *NOTHING* would thrill me more than to see the 7E7 wearing the red tail. (Well, maybe if they got a bunch of new 777's, that would REALLY turn my crank!!)

Having said that, I'm just not sure it's going to happen. NWA seems to take a steady approach to growth and they like their fleet commonality. They don't just go jumping out and trip over themselves to get the next latest and greatest big thing. Right now, they're committed to the A330 and that's where I believe they will stay for the foreseeable future.
 
aaflt1871
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:27 pm

Now I could see it being used on the LAS and LAX sectors out of MSP and DTW. Passengers want frequency more than anything else. That is why there is almost hourly service to LGA. But I have to agree with Gigneil that NW will opt for the A350
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luv2fly
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:28 pm

I have to agree with what others are saying! Considering how long NW keeps its planes flying, then they have no need for the 7E7's. They just now are retiring the DC9-10's.
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FCKC
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:31 pm

If NWA orders 7E7s it will be a blow for Airbus , and surely they will never place any A350s in the USA.
I highly doubt NWA will ever place a 7E7 order.
In fact , are they really in a hurry to order new planes ?Not sure..........
 
supa7E7
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:45 pm

NWA does have a plan for 7E7s beginning in spring of 2039, on Mars.
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ual777contrail
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:05 pm

NWA with the 7e7? In the old livery? AWESOME!!!


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leelaw
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:24 pm

I think NW will stick with the A332/333 for the foreseeable future for international growth, there should be plenty of reaonably priced second hand airframes available for them to scrounge up as some operators switch from the A332 to the A350. An order anytime soon for the B7e7/A350 class aircraft is highly unlikely, after all, it took them 10+ years to decide they really wanted the A330!
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atmx2000
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:07 pm

Without PW engines, the A350 would mean introducing an entirely new engine type from a different manufacturer into NW's fleet. The commonality with the A330 is going to be limited in terms of parts and maintenance. The principal advantage will be limited to cockpit commonality. NW might take a pass and see whether the PW engine will be brought out later on. Regardless, neither the 7E7 or A350 is coming out anytime soon. NW will continue to take the A330's they have ordered and bide their time.
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Rj111
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:34 pm

It's naive to think NW are more likely to order the 7e7 over the A350, and the overabundance of these wishful threads demonstrates that deep down, people know it.

The two reasons (well not even that) at the top of this thread, whilst worth flagging up, are trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Has anyone ever thought they might not even desire new aircraft, this is an airline who's still operating pax DC-10's.
 
leelaw
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:46 pm

NW will drop the DC-10s as soon as it becomes cheaper to operate anything else on routes where they're utilized. Why don't "A.netters" ever get on JAL's case for continuing to operate some equally elderly DC-10s.

[Edited 2005-01-03 14:49:35]

[Edited 2005-01-03 14:51:09]
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:47 pm

Without PW engines, the A350 would mean introducing an entirely new engine type from a different manufacturer into NW's fleet.

Seeing that neither the A350 or 7E7 is available with PW engines, NW will have to operate a new engine type if they select either the A350 or 7E7. NW operates plenty on non-PW powered planes, and PW's future in the large civil market looks somewhat questionable.
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gilesdavies
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:57 pm

Im not starting an A v B war here...

But NW has commited to the A330 for it's long haul routes and replacement for the DC-10 and is just going to be economical operating two different kind of aircraft of the same size within one airline.

NW has never operated the 767 along side the DC-10 and I dont see them operating the 7E7 along side the A330. They would have to have seperate crew rated for both aircraft and maintenance costs would be a lot higher having to support both aircrafts.

If they were to cancel future orders with Airbus that they have committed to the finacial penalties would be severe and I dont see Boeing picking up this cost. Boeing have always said they will never give aircraft away at a loss, like when A and B competed for easyJet's order.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:42 pm

GILESDAVIES..........Not if Boeing pays the penalties for NW.
I like the comment...."Boeing has always said they will never give aircraft away at a loss.." Does that translate that Airbus does?

Just a little brain food for the new year.
About NW or any other other Airbus operator NOT flying the 7E7? Never say never...
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DAYflyer
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:56 pm

NW is an Airbus customer and they like the product very much from what I understand. As much as I wouls like to see a 7e7 order from them, they will order the A-350 most likely. Airbus would never let that order get away.
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azjubilee
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:29 am

Dayflyer - NWA is also a boeing customer. What's your point?



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BOS2LAF
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:53 am

I doubt NW will order the 7E7 or A350 anytime soon. For example, look at the DC-9. You can bet NW will operate their A330s til one falls out of the sky just like they're doing with the DC-9.

I for one would be thrilled to see either a/c in the NW fleet, but lets be realistic here, they're obviously tight-fisted with their $$$ when it comes to new a/c orders. The 7E7 will have come and gone before NW even gives a thought to replacing the A330. They'll squeeze every mile they can out of those planes.
 
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:01 am

I have my doubts NW will buy the 7E7, mostly because they're already committed to the A330 series. I do see NW buying more A330-300's to finally put their DC-10 fleet "out to pasture" by 2010, though.
 
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:10 am

Azjubilee

My point is that NW has not ordered any Boeing aircraft in some time now. The seem to lean towards Airbus, (all recent orders 319/320/330) and with a commitment to the A-330 already in place, the likely order would be for the A-350 if they order anything at all. I would be very surprised if they ordered the 7e7.

The DC-9 is on it's way out (very slowly being replaced by 319, RJ), the DC-10 is being replaced by A-330; about the only Boeing left is the 747. I would not be too surprised to see that replaced by something from Airbus in the distant future.
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KateAA
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:16 am

I would have to agree with those who say that NWA would not buy the Boeing 7E7... They are already flying the Airbus A330 and a friend who works on long haul for them said the passengers seem to like them a lot.

I would have thought that NW would for for the A350, but as we have seen NW does like to get the most out of its aircraft, so what's saying they will nto just stick with the Airbus A330 for 20 odd years!?

Kate
 
gearup
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:22 am

I have my doubts NW will buy the 7E7, mostly because they're already committed to the A330 series. I do see NW buying more A330-300's to finally put their DC-10 fleet "out to pasture" by 2010, though.

I agree, although it is nice to see the DC10 still in service with majors like NWA and JAL. I hope to see 'em for many more years.

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bobnwa
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:22 am

about the only Boeing left is the 747

When did Northwest get rid of its large fleet of 752's and 753's?
 
ba319-131
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:36 am

All of the 7E7 orders to date are basically for 767 replacement,the exception being CO,which may still use them to replace the 762 fleet.

NW don't operate 767's and i don't really see them ordering any 7E7's to replace the 757 fleet,at least not at this stage.

NW take a very careful approach to fleet planning,don't expect a NW 7E7 order anytime soon.
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FCKC
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:52 am

The majority of people in this thread think NWA will not buy 7E7s.
If one day (I also think they are not in a hurry to do so), they decide to buy a plane of this class , as one of you said Airbus will not let's get away this order as it will be a strong blow for them.
I really think (only my thought , never saw any informations about that) one day (surely not yet , but in some years to come) NWA will buy the A380.
So why Airbus will not propose to NWA a very favorable package for A380/A350s ? This could be a nice deal for both NWA and Airbus , as it seems they are in love each other.
 
yul332LX
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:01 am

''Seeing that neither the A350 or 7E7 is available with PW engines''

We don't know that yet. A second engine supplier will be chosen for the A350 in the next few months, probably RR but it could possibly be P&W.
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scbriml
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:05 am

We don't know that yet. A second engine supplier will be chosen for the A350 in the next few months, probably RR but it could possibly be P&W.

Good point. My opinion is that Airbus will be taking a much bigger risk in going with PW rather than RR.
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blsbls99
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:09 am

Didn't NWA and KLM announce a few months back that they were going to look at the 7E7 for a possible order? I thought I saw this in a few of the trade magazines and airline info sites?
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ceo@afg
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:12 am

The B747-400 fleet is among the oldest in the world, seeing as NWA was the launch customer for the B744. First deliveries in 1989.

Same applies to the B752s, first deliveries in 1985.

The most recent addition to NWA's fleet from Boeing, is the B757-300, which is no longer in production.

I really don't see why Northwest would ditch their A330s and go with the 7E(ight)7, or add the 7E7 to the fleet in addition to the A330s.

Given that NWA's A320s are CFM powered, and not IAE powered, which is a collaboration between Rolls-Royce and Pratt & Whitney, I think the idea of NWA not ordering an aircraft because there's not a PW option as a bit far fetched. Even NWA can see that PW, are struggling to compete with GE and RR.

My tip for the future NWA fleet.

Mostly Airbus, with the B744 and B752/753 trottling on for a while longer.

Eventually I can see a fleet of
A319
A320
A321
A330-200
A330-300
A340 (a bit far fetched I admit)
A350
A380 (also a bit far fetched, but those B744s aren't getting any younger)

B747-400
B757-200
B757-300
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FCKC
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:27 am

Blsbls99

Not possible order , but study it , as the A350.
Anyway i think they are not in a hurry to order one of them.
 
FCKC
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:29 am

CEO@AFG

Think the same as you for the composition of the future NWA fleet ,with a great doubt about A340............
 
gigneil
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:39 am

I have doubts about the 340 as well.

As has been pointed out, the 343 will die a sudden and horrible death as a result of the announcement of the A350-900.

There is, of course, the chance that NW would deploy the 346 on some routes.

A lot of this hinges, I think, on what Airbus decides to do with Pratt.

N
 
atmx2000
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:45 am

My point is that NW has not ordered any Boeing aircraft in some time now.

They ordered a bunch of Boeing aircraft in 2000-2001, including the 757-300 which was not part of their fleet. So they did a little bit more than fill out an existing fleet. I seem to recall reading here that NW had said something to the effect that they had a use for an aircraft with the range of the 747 but with about half the capacity. If that is true, the 7E8 would seem to be the better fit.
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keesje
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:58 am

"A lot of this hinges, I think, on what Airbus decides to do with Pratt." I seem to remember a Airbus official say they don´t exclude any engine and certainly not Pratt.

If PW comes out with a good engine in a few years & there are customers they will include in the catalogue. IMO it´s more a question if PW wants to retain its market share in this segment & is willing to invest in it. Any new info on that one?
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N328KF
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:07 am

Keesje:

I agree that this is one of Pratt & Whitney's last chances to redeem their civil large turbine division. If they don't do that, all they will have left is P&W's military business and P&W Canada.
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azjubilee
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:12 am

Goodnight people! NWA is NOT an all airbus airline. NWA has not signed stupid exclusivity deals with either company. NWA is NOT exclusively a pratt customer. NWA in fiscal reponsible nature, will buy whatever a/c that fit the needs of the airline. They will examine all possible a/c types and buy the one that makes the most sense whilst providing the best economic return for their investment.

Day flyer - they have bought 744s and 757s in the 90s and in the 2000s. The reason NWA operates a lot of airbus, is because those were the best a/c opn the market at time that FIT THEIR MISSION.

As far as the 7E7 goes... If NWA sees the need for such a plane they wil buy whatever plane fits the mission the best. That said, it could go either way.


AZJ
 
777STL
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:21 am

Slightly off topic but I don't see NWA's 744s going anywhere in the distant future. They could keep even their oldest 744s for another twenty years. Look how long they've kept the DC9s in service and those have many more cycles on them than any of the 744s will ever have, even in twenty years time.

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yul332LX
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:50 am

''IMO it´s more a question if PW wants to retain its market share in this segment & is willing to invest in it.''

Well they were in the race for the 7E7 program so I think they are wiling to invest in this segment.

GE has already been announced as the first engine supplier for the A350 series and I would bet on RR to be the second supplier but I wouldn't rule PW out of this market (yet). Like mentionned before, it's probably the last chance PW will get in the 200-300 seats market, at least for the next 20 years
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isitsafenow
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:43 am

777STL couldn't be more correct! NW gets two cycles a day with the 400 and 5,6 and perhaps 8 cycles a day with the DC9. The Northwest 400's will be around until between 2015 and 2020...bet on it!
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mtnmanmakalu
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:02 am


Just read in the NWA employee newsletter I got in the mail today that "the DC10's are at the end of their useful life" in terms of costs and customer preference. It says NWA needs a smaller A/C capable of flying long-haul routes and they are "in active discussions with Boeing and Airbus".

My opinion is they will go with Airbus as they will discount any of their A/C to bottom of the barrel prices, losing $ to beat Boeing- would like NWA to keep it American and "Buy Boeing", but I just don't see it happening...

Just my thoughts-

mtnman
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blackknight
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:15 am

Regardless , If NW is in the market for either the A350 or the 7E7 they will set the record for lowest price of whatever type bought. Imagine the bidding war.
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rjpieces
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:17 am

For once, I agree with STT757. NW will have tremendous flexibility if they order the 7E7 and although it will mean introducing a new fleet type, it will lead to cheaper operating costs. There comes a point where it just doesn't make sense to sacrifice operating costs to save some money on commonality. If I had to guess (and that is what everyone on A.net does since none of us know just where that point is between operating costs and fleet commonality), I would wager that NW will choose the 7E7 and deal with introducing a new fleet type since it will mean cheaper operating costs/interesting new niche Asia routes/And a 767like aircraft that they can (and probably would) operate on domestic routes, something NW has never had and could use.

Let's also not forget that NW's 747s aren't going to last forever. When it comes time to replace them (assuming there is no 747 Advanced and that the 380 is too big for them), it will likely come down to 773ER vs A340-600. It will be the same question then--Does NW pay to introduce a new fleet type, or order the subpar A346 to save on commonality? The latter option might prove cheaper in both cases--We shall see.

I also believe that the Japan landing fees (based on weight) is one of the main reasons why JAL & ANA (and NW) haven't and probably won't order the A380.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
atmx2000
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:22 am

I also believe that the Japan landing fees (based on weight) is one of the main reasons why JAL & ANA (and NW) haven't and probably won't order the A380.

Are the per passenger landing fees higher or lower than other jets like the 744 and 773? That would be the metric to be concerned about. I would be surprised if wasn't lower, assuming those airlines could fill an A380.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
gigneil
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:54 am

NWA is NOT exclusively a pratt customer

NW passed on the 772ER solely because the Pratt powered version sucks. Pretty exclusive sounding to me.

My opinion is they will go with Airbus as they will discount any of their A/C to bottom of the barrel prices, losing $ to beat Boeing-

Bullshit. Utter bullshit. Airbus doesn't lose money.

N
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:08 am

The 7E7 ??? I would have guessed they would go with the 717 to replace their DC9's ....
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
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jetjack74
Posts: 6580
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:18 am

Bullshit. Utter bullshit. Airbus doesn't lose money.
You're right, because the EU keeps filling their coffers.
Made from jets!
 
flyabr
Posts: 753
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:42 am

RE: Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7

Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:23 am

my prediction is that NWA will order A321s to help supplement the 757s and then order A350s to supplement the growing A330 fleet. when it comes time to replace the 747s...they'll order more A350s and increase frequency over what they currently fly with the 747s...

by the time NWA needs to replace the 757s...airbus will have developed an A322...!  Big grin

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