Qantasclub
Topic Author
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:48 pm

Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:17 pm


People have often commented on the unexpectedly high number of Qantas 744s at LAX during most of the day (up to 5 on most days);
I have often been amazed at the number of Qantas planes at Sinagpore's Changi..in the evenings, from some angles, it looks like SYD rather than SIN with all these big red tails everywhere.
From Singapore, Qantas flies to and from: Sydney (twice daily), Melbourne (Daily), Brisbane (daily), Perth (Daily), Adelaide (?), London (Twice Daily) Frankfurt (? Daily) as well as code shares to Bahrain, Dubai and Paris.
This makes SIN it's the airline's biggest and most important hub outside of SYD.
Is there another carrier besides SQ with the same scaleof operations at Changi? It's not hard to see why Qantas has stayed away from KUL which is only 45 mins away, given the extent of it's operations at SIN

I wonder if QF will also move into T3 when it's completed, given it will likely be (after SQ) the largest A380 operator into and out of Changi in 2006.

Qantasclub.

Long Haul is the only way to go
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:30 pm

The answer to your questions depends on how you define the largest foreign carrier. In terms of available seats, Qantas might indeed be the largest foreign operator at Changi, but in times of daily departures, I'm sure there's airlines with a larger number of flights.

Garuda Indonesia, for instance, has the following flights from Singapore:

Jakarta (up to 9 daily)
Medan (daily)
Pekanbaru-Padang (4 weekly)
Semarang (4 weekly)
Jogjakarta (3 weekly)
Surabaya (10 weekly)
Denpasar (daily)
Bangkok (daily)
Ho Chi Minh (daily)
Hongkong (3 weekly)
Shanghai (3 weekly)

and the list used to be longer.

 
Qantasclub
Topic Author
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:48 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:43 pm

Thanks, HB-IWC.

I mean by capacity.number of seats.

Long Haul is the only way to go
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:05 pm

Hi, Qantasclub, I think you forgot Darwin - and FRA is 1x daily.
You can't count codeshare.
But it's really impressive to see all the QF planes at the same time.
signature censored by admin - so check my profile
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:20 pm

If I'm not mistaken, QF is the second largest carrier in SIN. I know it is in terms of seats and I'm pretty sure it is in terms of movements.

That is the reason why the Singapore government is pressing the issue for beyond traffic rights out of the Oz to the US. As it currently stands, QF has beyond rights for all their operations in SIN while SQ has nothing beyond in OZ.

I'm just the messenger, so don't shoot!
Fly fast, live slow
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:25 pm

I know it is in terms of seats and I'm pretty sure it is in terms of movements.

Yes in terms of number of seats, no in terms of number of movements. Garuda Indonesia counts for more movements than Qantas at Changi.

 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:37 pm

HB-IWC,

Like I said, I'm not sure of that. I do remember reading something in the Straits Times about QF and the size of their operation. Part of the Singapore government's argument about beyond rights was the size of the operation, being second only to SQ's.

I tried to look at the Changi website, but there really isn't any info there. Plus Garuda has cut back dramatically in the past couple of years.
Fly fast, live slow
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5176
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN

Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:18 pm

QantasClub, Perth-Singapore is double daily and has been for a long time with Qantas.
 
Qantasclub
Topic Author
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:48 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:36 pm


Thanks, NumberTweleve, I haven't included code share flights in the above tally, so it's all Qantas metal.

It's interesting to note that despite the impressive frequencies QF operates from SIN-AUS, SQ has even much greater capacity to AUS: Thrice a day to SYD and double dailys to Melbourne and also more capacity from Bris and Per to SIN.

The issue of rights of SQ to operate beyond SYD is a valid one...SQ has been very keen to procure rights AUS-US for a long time now, however i believe that the Australian government has been stalling because they know that there is no way Changi will limit business from it's largest foreign airline into and out of SIN no matter what they decide.
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN

Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:06 pm

Of course the Australians don't want to give SQ rights to operate from Australia to other destinations -- that's worth a lot more than QF being able to operate from Singapore. Singapore is nice, but as an O&D market it doesn't compare with Australia.

Steve
 
gardermoen
Posts: 1334
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 9:52 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:09 pm

Surely Malaysia Airlines has a greater presence in SIN over Qantas, both in terms of capacity and frequency.
I know that MAS did cut down after SARS and didnt really re-instate the lost capacity but still, wouldnt MH have a greater presence still?

 
User avatar
Luxair
Posts: 836
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 12:17 am

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:14 pm

Maybe off topic but is QF flying to BKK from SYD, if yes, on a daily basis?

Thanks for the info  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Milesdependent
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 5:27 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:55 pm

QF fly daily BKK-SYD. Flight is QF2 op'd by 3 class 744.

MD
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:25 pm

Like I said, I'm not sure of that. I do remember reading something in the Straits Times about QF and the size of their operation.

An easy count of this week's SIN operations will learn that Qantas' movements don't even come close to Garuda's, and the airline might even be outnumbered in daily departures by the likes of MH and TG.

Here's QF's weekly ops:

QF005 FRA daily
QF006 SYD daily
QF009 LHR daily
QF010 MEL daily
QF015 LHR 3 weekly
QF016 PER 3 weekly
QF031 LHR daily
QF032 SYD daily
QF052 BNE daily
QF072 PER 4 weekly
QF078 PER daily
QF082 DRW-ADL 3 weekly

for a grand total of 69 weekly departures.

Now here are Garuda's:

GA822 BKK daily
GA823 CGK daily
GA825 CGK daily
GA827 CGK daily
GA829 CGK daily
GA831 CGK daily
GA833 CGK daily
GA837 CGK daily
GA839 MES daily
GA841 DPS daily
GA843 SUB daily
GA845 PKU-PDG 4 weekly
GA855 SUB 3 weekly
GA858 HKG 3 weekly
GA859 CGK 3 weekly
GA868 SGN daily
GA869 CGK daily
GA873 SRG 4 weekly
GA877 JOG 3 weekly
GA896 PVG 3 weekly
GA897 CGK 3 weekly

for a grand total of 117 weekly departures.

 
Qantasclub
Topic Author
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:48 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:32 pm


Interesting, HB-IWC. I didn't know GA had such a large operation at SIN. Do you know what aircraft they operate mostly out of SIN?
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
tsentsan
Posts: 1921
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:48 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:11 pm

Do you know what aircraft they operate mostly out of SIN?



Boeing 737s... and we're all sick of them. Honestly. Sometimes its 3 GA B737s one after another.
NO URLS in signature
 
FlyinAggie
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:30 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:02 am

Both GA and MH have a large presence in the area. One thing about MH is that most flights are shuttle flights to KUl then connect onwards from there. The reason many don't see MH at the airport is because the turn around time for MH planes at SIN is usually about 50 min. or less.... and yeah you see so many GA 737's it's akin to seeing trees in the forest.
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:06 am

The issue of rights of SQ to operate beyond SYD is a valid one...SQ has been very keen to procure rights AUS-US for a long time now, however i believe that the Australian government has been stalling because they know that there is no way Changi will limit business from it's largest foreign airline into and out of SIN no matter what they decide.

It's certainly valid. But the Government of Singapore were so determined to make SIN the primary regional hub, they practically gave away rights to everyone without thinking the whole thing through. That decision is now coming to bite them in the arse.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15326
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:18 am

"That decision is now coming to bite them in the arse."

Not really...it's working out just fine for the government and the country. Either way they get the pax and any fees/taxes they pay.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15326
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:29 am

I just did some quick research and it looks like QF has about double the capacity that GA and MH do. In December QF had about 5000 daily seats whereas GA and MH had about 2000 each. The data is a little old but take it for what it's worth.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:42 am

Of course the Australians don't want to give SQ rights to operate from Australia to other destinations -- that's worth a lot more than QF being able to operate from Singapore.

Not true, and not at all.

Without QF being able to operate from Singapore, their entire European operation is dead.

QF would never get the same level of service from HKG, BKK, or any of the other good enroute stops.

I suppose KUL would give QF what they want.

N
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5176
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN

Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:39 am

Qantas would be the largest carrier that's not in the immediate region of say 2 hrs flying time, Thai has a good presence at Changi also, but for truly nonregional Qantas would be by far the biggest carrier through Changi.

lets say for instance that you did it by seat numbers, if you look at say a monday when all the flights listed above by HB-IWC were operating then you could have close to 5000 seats from QF alone flying through Changi.

that's alot of seats!
 
keno
Posts: 1809
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:46 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:52 am

Surely Malaysia Airlines has a greater presence in SIN over Qantas

It might surprise you that MH presence in SIN is quite pathetic compared to QF or GA. MH & SQ operate a joint-service for KUL-SIN sector, a legacy from the days when Malaysia & Singapore were the same country.

SIN-KUL
MH A330 4x daily
MH B734 1x daily
SQ B772 6x daily

SIN-PEN
MH B734 1x daily
SQ B772 17x weekly

SIN-KCH
MH B734 1x daily

SIN-BKI
MH B734 3x weekly

[Edited 2005-01-04 02:55:30]
 
Ejazz
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed May 22, 2002 10:26 am

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:20 am

It might be worth remembering that although Qantas has a very large presence in Singapore the amount of Business originating solely from Singapore and therefore revenue is in fact very small.
Etihad Girl, You're a great way to fly.
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:22 am

It might be worth remembering that although Qantas has a very large presence in Singapore the amount of Business originating solely from Singapore and therefore revenue is in fact very small.

That's probably true of SQ themselves...
 
Qantasclub
Topic Author
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:48 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:32 pm


Interesting replies...

Gigneil: I wouldn't go as far as to say that without Changi, their entire European operation is dead. As you mentioned, I think they would get just as attractive offers from KUL, which is still a very much underutilised and excellent facility, BKK's new airport will be up and running soon, looking for more capacity, and even places like Dubai, etc which would add an interesting dimension to the traditional Kangaroo route.

Ejazz: Just because passengers don't get off and stay in Sinagpore doesn't mean the island republic doesn't benefit. They would still get revenue from transit passengers shopping at Changi.

Does anybody know what sort of discount Qantas gets from Changi with landing fees, ground costs, etc?
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
United Airline
Posts: 8773
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:50 pm

I thought its MH or CX or GA
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:55 pm

FYI, QF's marketing is pretty strong in SIN. I just priced some vacation packages to the Gold Coast in March and QF/BA is substantially cheaper than SQ.
Fly fast, live slow
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:25 pm

I just did some quick research and it looks like QF has about double the capacity that GA and MH do.

Qantas would be the largest carrier that's not in the immediate region of say 2 hrs flying time, Thai has a good presence at Changi also, but for truly nonregional Qantas would be by far the biggest carrier through Changi.

lets say for instance that you did it by seat numbers, if you look at say a monday when all the flights listed above by HB-IWC were operating then you could have close to 5000 seats from QF alone flying through Changi.


No need to get overly protective of your own home airline. I already acknowledged that Qantas is the largest in terms of available seats. I was merely pointing out to some other posters that in terms of movements Garuda is far larger.


I thought its MH or CX or GA

As pointed out by Keno above, MH's presence is not as large as one would expect with 45 weekly movements, which is considerable smaller than Qantas.

As for some other regional players: CX currently operates 48 weekly departures out of Changi, whereas TG's total stands at 55, but that is to go down with the end of nonstop flights to Hat Yai (HDY) and Phuket (HKT) next summer.

 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5176
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN

Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:12 pm

oi vlaka, i wasn't being protective of my own carrier, i was just doing some quick adding up and giving people some rough idea as to how many seats QF could have on a monday!

Qantas is quite capable of standing on it's own to feet without protection from me.  Big grin
 
Ejazz
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed May 22, 2002 10:26 am

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:22 pm

QantasClub

You completely miss my point.
Etihad Girl, You're a great way to fly.
 
AF022
Posts: 1638
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:25 am

from the OAG, what I can tell is the following:

weekly seat departures from SIN:
213,630 SQ
26,721 QF
20,143 GA
18,976 MI
18,698 TG
15,603 CX
13,546 MH
12,944 EK
10,808 BA
7,919 JL


weekly departures from SIN:
653 SQ
136 MI
117 GA
69 QF
56 TG
55 MH
45 CX
36 EK
35 TR
28 JL


 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:04 am

35 weekly departures from SIN with Transbrasil???
signature censored by admin - so check my profile
 
AF022
Posts: 1638
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:24 am

my database - sometimes with errors - shows a carrier TR based in SIN with A320 service to BKK, HDY and HKT.

i don't find these flights after a quick search on expedia, however.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6459
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:27 am

Would TR mean Tiger Air?
What's ValuAir's code?

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5176
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN

Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:25 am

ValuAir is VF from what i understand.
 
Qantasclub
Topic Author
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:48 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:28 am


Interesting that QF has more seat departures than MI which is based in Singapore; due to the size of aircraft QF operates into SIN I guess.

Also, improtant to remember that the vast majority of these seats are transit passengers, and this will only increase with the A380.

Makes you wonder if in the near future AUS-UK non stops are possible (and profitable); that would change everything and SIN's hub status would vanish, like bahrain and abu dhabi did in the 80s when non stops btw asia and europe became possible.

Long Haul is the only way to go
 
The Coachman
Posts: 1192
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:57 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:34 pm

QF has not been keen to open up DXB as a hub. And it might start to bite them in the bud. EK is snapping up a lot of business on the Kangaroo route, primarily from Europeans who now can refuse to transit FRA or LHR.

QF refused to work with EK and they might regret it.
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
Marara
Posts: 634
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:15 pm

One of the australian aviatioin mags says Qantas are re-evaluating a DXB hub. read into it what you will.
I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
 
thadocta
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 9:44 am

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:20 am

I think that one thing which needs to be remembered here (and it might have been mentioned, this board is so long winded I may not have noticed) is that SIN is a "natural hub" from flights from AU to Europe/UK. These flights need to stop "somewhere" and SIN is as good a place as any, as SIN will then get the landing fees, the shopping, the stop-over traffic and so on.

As far as SQ operating SYD-LAX goes, SYD is NOT a "natural stopover point" for a SIN-LAX flight. It is out of the way, and nobody will do it (unless the fares are REALLY cheap). So SQ seeking rights on this sector is nothing more than SQ identifying an extremely lucrative sector and seeking to capitalise on it.

So QF seeking rights ex-SIN is just seeking to extend current rights, SQ seeking rights SYD-LAX is just miliing a cash-cow.

Dave
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:48 pm

Thadocta, what do you mean with "natural hub"?
You mean it's on the way to Europe? But so is KUL, BKK and DEL, for example. So that's nothing special.
Also infrastructure of KUL and BKK (never been to DEL) is as good as SIN. And DEL f.e. would make the trip to about 60/40 and not 75/25.

And by the way: I didn't see any reclining seat in SIN, that is what I missed after 12 hours flight + another 7.


[Edited 2005-01-07 14:50:12]
signature censored by admin - so check my profile
 
airbazar
Posts: 6955
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Is Qantas The Largest Foreign Carrier Into SIN?

Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:40 am

You're all ignoring one important fact: O&D yield. The majority of the traffic may be from transit passengers but there's a lot of business between Singapore and Australia, as well as Singapore and Europe. SIN is not just a transit hub. From what I understand the yield from O&D traffic is very, very good. Singapore may be a tiny country but it is a very rich one. QF would likely be able to get a sweet deal to move their hub to KUL or BKK but they would certainly loose a lot too.