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clickhappy
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Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:10 pm

Everytime I read that Emirates has order 45 A380s I wonder why. I am sure they got a good deal as part of the launch order/customer process. If the A380 is a big sucess from the get go, hasn't Emirates placed themselves in a position that they can lease out their A380's, thereby stripping Airbus of potential new customers?

Does anyone know the rate of delivery that they will be taking their 380s?
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:24 pm

45 is a lot to absorb. Even for Emirates. Especially something that big. I have always wondered about that too.

I think that Airbus is smart enough to cover the bases with a clause in the purchase contract that woud prohibit such a move unless further deliveries were in jeopardy with Emirates itself. I would also further suggest that the airline would have to get Airbus approval before taking such a step.
One Nation Under God
 
Planesmart
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:03 pm

Question 1: What is the delivery schedule? Spread over 3yrs it's a lot. Over 10 a different matter.

Question 2: If we were talking about the latest Ferrari or Lambo, then 'scalpers' do take delivery positions and on-sell them. I don't think the A38, A35 or 7e7 are in this category.

Question 3: Are there limitations on on-selling the delivery positions, or the aircraft when built? The only restrictions would normally be sales to restricted countries. Even selling an A38 to B would probably be OK.

When B models dominanted the market, and especially when new 747's were on every airlines shopping list, B were able to make other model purchases a condition. U can have 1x 747 next year, but if you order 5x 737's you can have 3.

And in those days, deposits were non-refundable, non-transferrable and non-deferrable. If you didn't exercise orders & options before the expiry dates, the dollars went to B's bottom line. How times have changed.
 
behramjee
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:50 pm

Possibilities that could arise are:

1. EK creating an independent AIRCRAFT LEASING COMPANY and putting in its newly ordered A 380s there alongside a few of its older aircraft at the time the A 380 is delivered such as the B 772As and B 773s and maybe a few A 332s.

2. EK could at a later stage convert some of those 45 A 380s into PURE FREIGHTERS before production has started on them.

 
bill142
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:41 pm

Some of these A380's are being leased by EK so I don't think that they will be leasing any of them. Older aircraft which the A380's may replace could be leased insted of being sold.

I have hear rumors that EK is desperate for capacity, however sometimes I think they have gone a bit overboard placing large orders for new aircraft and leasing/buying whatever secondhand aircraft they can get their hands on. Surley somethings gotta give sooner or later.
 
OHLHD
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:04 pm

If Emirates had purchased 45 B 747-400ADV
everybody would be happy and you wouldn´t read any comments how ridicolous this order is.

Let´s wait and see what will happen. EK definitly has the pax figures on some routes which need such an A/C.

Since money isn´t a issue in countries like the UAE or Qatar, we can expect some more big big orders from their airlines. (QR poss 60 B7E7 or A350, EY just placed a large one)
 
N79969
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:59 pm

OHLHD,

No I would think it would have been ridiculous had they ordered 45 B747 as well. 45 airplanes of that size is a lot of capacity.

Clickhappy,

I do not see a problem really. Whether its 45 airplanes sold to say, 9 customers, or all 45 to just one they still chalk up the sale regardless of the ultimate operator. Actually it may be preferable to have a single, financially-backed-to-the-hilt company like Emirates placing an order than having to deal with multiple companies with diverse financial situations to sell the same number of airplanes.
 
donder10
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:02 pm

If Emirates had purchased 45 B 747-400ADV
everybody would be happy and you wouldn´t read any comments how ridicolous this order is.

Less so because that aircraft would fit in between their current largest aircraft,the 773,and the A380.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:29 am

I'm assuming none are the freighter version..having said that..thats A LOT of passenger seats to add, not to mention other competition....even though it will take a few years to get those jets.........isnt' it a bit too much? Is EK growing THAT quickly with yields doing THAT good?

my guess would be for an Asia expansion more than anything else..ie. more India, China, etc....

any opinions comments welcomed.
"Up the Irons!"
 
A350
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul

Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:31 am

I think that Airbus is smart enough to cover the bases with a clause in the purchase contract that woud prohibit such a move unless further deliveries were in jeopardy with Emirates itself. I would also further suggest that the airline would have to get Airbus approval before taking such a step.

You buy it, you own it. And the owner's rights include the right to sell your property whenever and to whom ever you want. That's the liberty to have property, nobody can stop you.

It's just a giant speculation: maybe they win, maybe they lose.

A350
 
capri
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:40 am

But you all tend to forget that what goes on iside the plane what counts now adays, we don't know for sure how EK will transform the interioe, naybe they keep 400 seats but the inside could be a flying living rooms, suites, night clubs etc....i mean DXB-JFK 14H25mn, imagine what you can do in there.The majority of the airlines will redesign their interiors in a more luxurious way, people that fky EK can afford such a thing, have you tried to see their prices from europe to DXB, i can't afford them.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:53 am

Sure but couldn't EK sell their delivery positions, ala Delta, and then the planes would be built to the new customers specs?
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:01 am

Capri, where are you looking for EK prices?
They usually are very affordable. At least for flights from Germany.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
capri
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:14 am

well, especially from London, of all websites i check emirates come way down from low prices to high prices, like now in january for example, i found airlines with around £270, meanwhile EK around £400.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:24 am

"i mean DXB-JFK 14H25mn, imagine what you can do in there"

I flew that route back in July/August....cattle class, and all they did was pack it in!

now business/1st class, maybe things would be different..
"Up the Irons!"
 
keesje
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:27 am



It seems Emirates is trying to build a holiday/ conference/ event paradise / business center before the oil wells dry up.

A380´s to bring in the millions of tourists..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
JoKeR
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:41 am

Previous posts on EK's decision to acquire huge amounts of A380's all appeared to be very biased; I personally felt that many posts were based on "pure jealousy" that this airline can afford A380's, and fill them, while their national airline's can not, and I say this while being very aware that my county's national carrier can barely afford a new 737!

I personally applaud EK for their courageous step; they surely have thought it over and I really do hope it goes their way.

So what if they have oil and money, so does Nigeria but have they created something similar?

These people have been blessed with a fantastic geographical location, they have experienced Management, great staff (nope I do not work for Emirates) and a very solid product, of course they will succeed, why shouldn't they.
Kafa, čaj, šraf?
 
capri
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:20 am

Well even Nigeria got a great geographical location, the best in western and central africa, but it was not used to the fullest potential, but we never know with the established Virgin Nigeria, it'a all about the will and desire to succeed, sometimes i get the feeling like especially SQ keep updating their planes just to say we are the first or we did it first.
 
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glideslope
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:42 am


The future is about H2O. You can live without oil. Not water. Let's hope they receive #43 in time.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:06 am

It seems Emirates is trying to build a holiday/ conference/ event paradise / business center before the oil wells dry up.

It's commendable that someone in the Middle East has this sort of forethought...

A380´s to bring in the millions of tourists..

That explains the 600+ seat capacity...

I personally applaud EK for their courageous step; they surely have thought it over and I really do hope it goes their way.

There is no courage in business, there is risk. I assume EK has done the math and assumes the risk vs. return is worthwhile, but this is still a massive order. Assuming list prices (yeah right), 45 A388 equate to roughly 200 narrow-body 73G/A319. For reference, the world's largest narrow-body opperator (WN) has ordered 275 73G over the last decade....
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:14 am

For reference, the world's largest narrow-body opperator (WN) has ordered 275 73G over the last decade....

Bad analogy. WN flys all over the US, not bringing people from all around the world to one place, which isn't the most stable area of the world, nor the temprate.

If you want to compare Emirates to an existing airline wouldn't Signapore be the closest?
 
Feroze
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:16 am

"before the oil wells dry up."


Dubai, which is Emirates base, has/had very little oil reserves anyway. Its substantial wealth come from the port itself. It has been developing itself as a business/leisure destination to boost its coffers....very successfully. Abu Dhabi and other emirates within the UAE are the ones with the oil.

Feroze

[Edited 2005-01-06 00:19:08]
 
bill142
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:57 am

Bad analogy. WN flys all over the US, not bringing people from all around the world to one place, which isn't the most stable area of the world, nor the temprate.

I'm sure if WN were international they would bring in lots of people. The point that DFWRevolution was making was that EK is not the only airline in the past decade to be placing large orders.

Perhamps EK just feel that they need this much capacity. Time will tell and we will see what happens with all these aircraft.
 
JoKeR
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:24 pm


There is no courage in business, there is risk. I assume EK has done the math and assumes the risk vs. return is worthwhile, but this is still a massive order.


How cute  Insane
Kafa, čaj, šraf?
 
Leskova
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:47 pm

Clickhappy, remember that EK is not just an airline that's about "bringing people from all around the world to one place", but an airline that is also focussing on connecting traffic - and DXB itself isn't really all that unstable.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
flyingdoctorwu
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:29 am

I did this comparios in August so I don't think it's still valid. If I am not mistaken EK has posted more orders but I think that it still illustrates their capacity and upcoming capacity...

B777-300 3 Class 16+42+320=378 x 12= 4536
B777-200 3 Class 16+49+236=301 x 5 = 1505
2 Class 49+304=353 x 4 = 1412
A340-500 3 Class 12+42+204=258 x 5 = 1290
A340-300 3 Class 12+42+213=267 x 5 = 1335
A330-200 12+42+183=237 x 29= 6873
Total Seat Capacity = 16951

On Order
A380-800 x 43 x 550 seats = 23650
B777-300ER x 30 x 378 = 11340
A340-500 x 5 x 258 = 1290
A340-600HGW x 20 x 372 (typica) = 7440
Total Seat Capacity on Order = 43720

Total Seat Capacity once orders fulfilled= 60651

The seating capcity for aircraft on order (A380/A340 ) are assumming typical three class configuration- everyone knows that Emirates tends to err to the higher end of capacity on their jets (see A340 2-3-2 J class, 777 3-4-3 Y class) but I dont know what emirates aircraft downsizing plans are (other than phasing out the A310) but by the time all of their aircraft on order come through they will have almost tripled their seat capacity- ambitious. The A380 order itself more than doubles the seat capacity

So yeah 45 A380s is a ton...
 
OHLHD
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:48 am

At least i would be happy if they had ordered B747-400ADV.......
 
jacobin777
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:57 am

All I have to say is that those folks at Airbus BETTER get the planes up to their specs, or they will have one BIG problem on their hands......but those folks at Airbus are sharp, and I'm sure they will get it down...scary to think though if it doesn't pan out according to plan!
"Up the Irons!"
 
karan69
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:07 am

They have a policy of selling/leasing their aircrafts after they become 5 years old-i heard this on a program AAJ TAK news channel did on them---altough i am sure this would not be true--can anyone confirm this?

Could something similar be the reason for purchasing so many new aircrafts
 
capri
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:11 am

If you look at its fleet history, i think they tend to update their fleet the same as SQ does, or maybe they are trying to copy SQ in fleet often renewal. check their fleets and dates of delivery on http://www.airfleets.net
 
cedarjet
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:26 am

SQ aren't so hot on fleet renewal idea these days. They still fly the A310, right? Those planes are really old. And they still have the original entire 747-400 fleet, the earliest models are more than 15 years old. Actually I think it's about in line with most airlines, but it's not like the old days where 757s and A300s came and went, 747-300s replacing the 747-200 etc.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
CRJ900
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:02 am

I read in Flight International some time ago that EK is planning to phase out some or all of their A330-200s as they are already too small (capacity wise) for many routes, so if we assume that their single A310 and 29 A332s are phased out progressively with current B772/3s flying their routes and the new 773ER/346HGW/388 flying the current B772/3s routes plus some new services, then the growth isn't that huge after all, even though it is big compared to many other carriers.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
9v-svc
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RE: Emirates And Airbus, Robbing Peter To Pay Paul

Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:17 pm

Quote : "SQ aren't so hot on fleet renewal idea these days. They still fly the A310, right? Those planes are really old. And they still have the original entire 747-400 fleet, the earliest models are more than 15 years old. Actually I think it's about in line with most airlines, but it's not like the old days where 757s and A300s came and went, 747-300s replacing the 747-200 etc."


SQ has retired their A310s like 1-2 years ago. Currently , they are only operating 3 types, 345/777/744. In fact some of their 744s have already left their fleet. Recently I saw SML with CX cheatline. SMO is the latest aircraft to have her SQ livery removed.
Airliners is the wings of my life.