swisskloten
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Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:35 am

Can someone explain this for me? It seems that, in economy, it might help to keep as few seats abreast in one section as possible but why would United put its seats in a 2-5-2 arrangement on a 777-200? Isn't 3-3-3 safer and more convenient because the people in the middle row wouldn't have to trip over so many seats to get out? I wouldn't be surprised if the poor person in the middle row can't even go to the lavatory because there are too many people to wake up and move in the middle of the night.
 
Maitner777
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:38 am

I was wondering the exact same thing the other day...


[Edited 2005-01-05 19:39:15]
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:38 am

This has been discussed in previous threads.

Your argument about the middle seat is fallacious. With 3-3-3 there are two prisoners per row who have to get past 2 people to get to the aisle (at the windows). With 2-5-2 there is only one (in the middle).

Also with 2-5-2 the prisoner seats don't get filled up until you're at quite high loads, and most will be taken by families where three or more want to sit togehter.


Having flown both variants several times, I say give me 2-5-2 over 3-3-3 any day.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Feroze
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:38 am

Good question! On my first trip to the US in 2000, I was travelling LHR-SFO and guess where I was sitting. Yep, in the middle of 5 seats. Pure torture. At the reservations office in SFO I was told that most airlines configured them like that... BA being an anomoly. However, I have found that UA is the odd one out. Maybe not...

Feroze
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:40 am

actually 3-3-3 would be MORE DANGEROUS to use your example because 2 people per row would have to pass 2 seats to get out rather than 1 on 2-5-2.

And convinience... welll... since when do airlines give a dang there, and same problem anyways...
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:41 am

ok that was spooky... from 0 replies to 4 in 30 seconds!
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:43 am

AA: 2-5-2
AF: 3-3-3
CO: 3-3-3
DL: 3-3-3
BA: 3-3-3
UA: 2-5-2
CX: 3-3-3
SQ: 3-3-3
KL: 3-3-3

The likelihood of you ending up a prisoner on a plane with 3-3-3 is twice as high as on a plane with 2-5-2, although granted the 3-3-3 prisoners do get the window, which doesn't help if you really need to go...  Big grin

[Edited 2005-01-05 19:44:02]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Feroze
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:46 am

It wasn't that fact that I had to climb over 2 people, but that I felt really hemmed in with shoulders and legs everywhere. Mind you, the FAs were pretty decent with the booze at 9am LT and sleep did occur. It had been a long night....! (Well, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!)

Feroze
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:48 am

I love 2-5-2. I can get my window and still only have to step over one complete stranger. If I'm traveling with someone, we get 2 seats just for us. If you have a larger family/group, then the middle won't be a problem since the people you are stepping over aren't complete strangers...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ssides
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:51 am

I've flown AA's 777s several times, usually with companions, and I LOVE the 2-5-2 layout. When traveling with my wife, we can almost always get two seats by ourselves, and not have to worry about anyone bothering us getting up, or us bothering anyone else. It's definitely more convenient. The middle seat in the "5" section is always the last filled, so there is much less hassle for everyone involved.

An added bonus: with Gold status, we can request the exit/bulkhead seats at the front of the rear coach section, which means virtually unlimited legroom. No wonder I love AA!
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ord
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:51 am

Delta only has a few 777s outfitted 3-3-3. Most of their 777s are 2-5-2. They were all supposed to go 3-3-3 but I don't know when that will happen.
 
Feroze
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:54 am

It must have been my lucky day then! I remember checking in 2.5 hrs before departure as well. There were a lot of connecting pax though. The only saving grace was that my bags were coming round the carousel as I got there.

Feroze
 
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drerx7
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:54 am

3-3-3 gives a more spacious look to the cabin. Either or is fine for me--I don't have a problem with the 3-3-3 layout or 2-5-2. Didn't BA or another 777 carrier habve 3-4-2?
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
bananaboy
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:15 am

Someone from UA once told me it also had to do with travelling families....
Mum, Dad and 2 kids could sit together.


Mark
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senorbob
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:48 am

It's Egyptair that uses 2-4-3 on their 777's. In my view that's the best layout for passengers, as it seems to be the best of all worlds.

This used to be a common configuration - standard in the early 747's.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:51 am

It's Egyptair that uses 2-4-3 on their 777's. In my view that's the best layout for passengers, as it seems to be the best of all worlds.

This used to be a common configuration - standard in the early 747's.


Before they figured out that one more seat per row meant a lot of $$$  Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SNATH
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:03 am

I violently agree with what Starlionblue said.

I will take 2-5-2 over 3-3-3 any day (in the same way I will take any 2-X-2 config over a 3-X-3
config any day; and I hope that noone actually goes for that stupid 3-2-3 config in the 7E7 that
Boeing suggested). I like having a window seat with only one person between me and
the aisle, not two.

In fact, I've always wondered the exact opposite. Why any airline bothers with a 3-3-3
config on the B777. I'm sure it's due to marketing (no "middle seat", aren't we great?).
Instead, they introduce two "prisoner" seats...

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:12 am

I absolutely hate 3-3-3. I am very pleased United has decided to stick with it.

N
 
dca727fan
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:16 am

Indeed.

http://www.egyptair.com.eg/docs/inside/insideaircraft.htm
 
mlsrar
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:17 am

At least I don't feel entirely in the minority about enjoying the 2-5-2 layout.

I wish more carriers would adopt the standard, as I feel the opposite of most in that the 2-5-2 seems to feel more spacious and segregated from other groups of passengers.
I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
emiratesa345
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:28 am

I would think it's definately Emirates Airlines 3-4-3 configuration!


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In all seriousness, although I've never flown on a 777, I would imagine that 2-5-2 would be the most comfortable and safe configuration. This way, not only does only one person have to climb over two seats to get out, but he or she has the option of climbing over the two seats to the left, or two seats to the right.

Mark
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
FinnWings
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:36 am

I personally hate 3-3-3 seating configuration as well... If you are traveling with someone there is always one stranger just next to you no matter where you are seated. 2-5-2 is very comfortable, but this will cause a little bit problems as in the middle overhead bins are farther away from the aisle. I have witnessed sometimes quite an interesting acrobatic maneuvers from passengers as they have tried to reach those bins better.

The best seating configuration is no doubt 3-4-2... It will give more different seating arrangement options for everyone!

Best Regards,
FinnWings
 
Carpethead
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:38 am

I prefer the 2-5-2 over the 3-3-3.
Ex-JAS 772s are also 2-5-2 but are being converted to JL's standard 3-3-3.
When sitting in a 3-seat window seat, I have to climb over or request two people to get up, therefore I never sit in the window seat for long-haul travel anymore, if an aircraft has this configuration.
I have had the pleasure of sitting in the middle of the 2-5-2, but that was for a less than one hour flight from HND-ITM. It wasn't too bad, but I wouldn't want to do it over 10 hours.
 
ssides
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:44 am

It's Egyptair that uses 2-4-3 on their 777's. In my view that's the best layout for passengers, as it seems to be the best of all worlds.

This used to be a common configuration - standard in the early 747's.


Before they figured out that one more seat per row meant a lot of $$$


2-4-3 won't result in lost revenue ... it would be no different from 2-5-2 or 3-3-3. There would still be 9 seats in a standard row.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
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PA110
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:45 am

KLM operates their MD11 with a 3-4-2 configuration. Does anyone know why they didn't keep the same for the 777?
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
nrt1011
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:52 am

Please add ANA and Thai to the airlines that use the horrid 3-3-3 configuration.

I fly the ANA 777 pretty much every week NRT-PVG-NRT as well as NRT-HKG-NRT and I have now moved from a window seat to an aisle seat (the window being far too claustrophobic, especially when you're waiting to get off and everyone's standing and jamming you in).

I think the 3-3-3 may be OK given a bit more legroom but on the airlines I've flown using 777 (ANA, Thai) they seem to provide minimal space, hence my dislike of the 777 (which is otherwise a fine aircraft, but hey I'm a passenger and if I'm uncomfortable then I don't like the plane - period!) and my preference for the 330 which airlines seem to give more legroom, or is it just me?

Of course, lest we forget, my beloved L-1011 was a 2-5-2 configuration (certainly on Air Canada). We can sit and dream that we're still on that most magnificent of flying machines.
 
MakeMinesLAX
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:08 am

Someone from UA once told me it also had to do with travelling families....
Mum, Dad and 2 kids could sit together.


That was certainly the case for us traveling LAX-LHR on UA. Outbound, we took 4 of the 5 seats, and had our own "exit" to the lavatory (as did the passenger in "seat 5"). Four-in-a-row wasn't available on the return, so we took 2+2 , with the added bonus of windows and no strangers sitting next to us.

When you think about it, 3+3+3 is basically an extension of the typical narrow-body 3+3, which I always find difficult for family travel. If you do the math, 3+3(+3) works best with individuals and a 66% load, whereas 2+5+2 favors couples or families (of 4) and an 88% load.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:13 am

It's Egyptair that uses 2-4-3 on their 777's. In my view that's the best layout for passengers, as it seems to be the best of all worlds.

This used to be a common configuration - standard in the early 747's.

Before they figured out that one more seat per row meant a lot of $$$

2-4-3 won't result in lost revenue ... it would be no different from 2-5-2 or 3-3-3. There would still be 9 seats in a standard row.



You misunderstand. I was talking about 747s, which have 10 abreast as standard.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
sfo212
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:30 am

Keep the 2-5-2 seating alive!!!!! That is why I hate the 747 seating. 3-4-3. Yuck! As someone who loves to look out the window, I hate crawling over two people to get to the aisle.
 
trex8
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:40 am

this topic has been covered in the Tech section not that long ago and 1 point brought up is that with the 2-5-2, if you are standing in the aisle, it is difficult to reach up and open a closed overhead bin. I am 5' 8" and I can't reach it, you have to be standing in the leg space of the outer seat of the middle bank or on the seat itself to reach that bin unless you are 6' tall.
 
N867BX
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:43 am

Yes, 2-5-2 looks yucky at first until you think about it. I do agree 2-4-3 or 3-4-2 is best.

Speaking of the 747, has anyone ever put 11 abreast in one, perhaps those SR'S in Japan or a charter company?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:44 am

this topic has been covered in the Tech section not that long ago and 1 point brought up is that with the 2-5-2, if you are standing in the aisle, it is difficult to reach up and open a closed overhead bin. I am 5' 8" and I can't reach it, you have to be standing in the leg space of the outer seat of the middle bank or on the seat itself to reach that bin unless you are 6' tall.

Fine, but since if you aren't a complete n00b you only need to reach the bin twice (before you sit down and after you have stopped at the gate), what's the bid deal? It's worth stepping on an armrest twice to avoid being a prisoner during the remaining 10 hours.

[Edited 2005-01-06 00:45:19]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ANNOYEDFA
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:58 am

3x3x3 is so much better then 2x5x2... Also makes the cabin feel wider.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
KDTWflyer
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:04 am

2-5-2 is not a problem if you aren't in the middle of 5 section... I was once in a NW D10 from DTW-LGW and it was managable believe it or not. 2-5-2 is awesome if you are traveling with someone else as you can have the two seats on either side.
NW B744 B742 B753 B752 A333 A332 A320 A319 DC10 DC9 ARJ CRJ S340
 
ScandinA340
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:49 am

Spare a thought for Lauda Air/Austrian Airlines... Their Y class features both 3-3-3 and 3-4-3 on their 777s. Just got back from a SYD-KUL-SYD flight, thankfully ahead of the dreaded 3-4-3 section!!!

Cheers,
ScandinA340
 
sllevin
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:51 am

I much prefer 2-5-2. The number of cases where 3-3-3 works out better is very, very small.

Steve
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:29 am

MH has a 2-5-2 config on it's B772's.

as for EK, i think the 3-4-3 config is only on the B773's, while the B772's have a 3-3-3 config.

TG's MD11's also have a 2-5-2 config.

I would seriously lose the plot if is was stuck in the middle seat of a 2-5-2 config, unless i was travelling with the two people on either side of me.
besides, i'm a weak bladder kinda person, can u imagine how crazy i'd drive the people next to me!! LOL
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:37 am

IIRC, UA had this same config. on the DC10s as well, and the 742's. I think maybe even the 767's as well.

Since the 772 is the replacement for the -10, it doesn't surprise me that the 2-5-2 config. stayed. That, and for crew training purposes...UA most likely wanted to keep the layout as to avoid having to retrain inflight crew members.

Just my .02.
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BIGBlack
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:54 am

Seems it would be great for families
Someone special in the air
 
swisskloten
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:28 pm

Thanks for the input but please try to not get overexcited. I asked because, remember, you can't always get a seat on the sides where there will be only one row. It's take it or leave it. Since this could be the case in economy, I felt that it might make a bit more sense to make it easier overall for people to get out. And yes, I have been trapped on a flight over the Pacific about 12 years ago and spilled coffee all over myself. And by luck, I was in the center with two people on both sides of me - with the meal trays down! So you can imagine how bad it was!
 
mtkinf
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:05 pm

I fly the Untied 777's often, typically on short flights between DEN and ORD. I must say that if I'm traveling with my wife or even traveling alone, the 2-5-2 arrangement is by far the best for me. With my wife, we have our own section of seats. Alone, I have the window seat and only one person to climb over if I need to.

I've never had to sit in the dreaded center of the middle 5, but I book my tickets far enough in advance that I've never had to worry about it.

Now if we had a child, that would change everything, wouldn't it?
 
kurt
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:20 pm

I sat in the "middle-middle" a few years ago on a UA 777 FRA-ORD - and liked it! It was great since my friend was in the aisle, then there was an empty seat, then me, then another empty, then another person in the opposite aisle. All three of us were happy, especially since it was E+.

With a 3-3-3 arrangement, this equation (7 in a row of 9, since both of the 2-blocks in our row were full), at least one of the sets of 3 is "full." With 2-5-2, everyone is better off, relatively speaking.
 
Ratypus
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:42 pm

2-5-2 is actually better - not on the very rare occasions where the lone traveller gets the middle of the 5 seats, but great otherwise - if you're travelling in a pair you'll nearly always get 2 seats on the window - makes a long flight so much nicer to have your own seat with the person you're travelling with!
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:41 pm

Let's turn the question around: why do so many airlines use 3-3-3 in the T7?

I remember LH's DC 10, they also had 2-5-2 in Eco and it was really great! Only the F-seat (seat in the middle) was the bad seat and all window seats only had 1 neighbour (as blue Starlion mentioned).

I also remember that LH in the early 747 days had 2-4-3 or 3-4-2 in their eco and also a bar in the upper deck.
Now imagine a 747 with 2-5-2 - really great.

Concerning T7 and DC10: imagine if plane isn't sold out, you have a very long bed in the middle  Wink/being sarcastic
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ariis
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:19 pm

Hi there,

I agree that for people who travel in small groups (say 2 to 5 persons) it can be good to have 2-5-2. For people who travel alone (like myself in most cases) and like to have a window-side seat, the window-side row of only 2 seats is very good as well.

However, if you are not lucky and do not manage to get the seat you want, I guess ending up in the middle seat of 5 people bench can be a real pain (luckily I have never sat there, but I imagine sitting in a theatre for 10 or more hours, wherever you turn lots of strangers). If you happen to lose both armrests on top of it, then you're out. I would prefer a double-excuse-me window side seat much, much more.

But that's just me. Best regards
FAO
FAO - Flight Activities Officer
 
frontiers4ever
Posts: 163
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:29 pm

Wont somebody just think of the children!

-Frontiers4ever
my 5 cents
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Geo772
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:17 pm

I think I might be able to somewhat explain the use of 3-3-3 on the 777.

Most IFE systems have seat boxes which serve either 2 or 3 seats. On a 3-3-3 config you only need 3 boxes per row. On any other config you need 4 boxes per row, which assuming you have 20 rows of economy would add about 40 kg of weight to the aircraft. I know this doesn't sound like much but in the modern penny pinching days every kilo counts.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:24 pm

@Geo - ok, every kilo counts . But if there is no PVT and TV is needed, why not thinking about LH's solution of a big beamer in the center of each cabin?
That's cinema, not TV then. And if you can't choose your own program, maybe this is better solution than TV.
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AirGAbon
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:24 pm

What about Air Austral (UU) B772, are they with a 3-3-3 arrangement or 2-5-2 configuration? (I will fly with them next month from CDG to RUN).


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jamotcx
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RE: Why Does UA Use 2-5-2 Seating?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:30 pm

I have to say give me 2-5-2 any day over 3-3-3.

Being stuck in the middle of the 5 is just the same as being against a window. you have the same number of people to climb over.


Jamo

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Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos