boeingfever777
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:16 pm

Ok I was wondering who will be the first Major European Carrier to place a firm order for the 7e7. So far it's CO, JL, NZ, VN, & NH. (God I hope that is correct) I do understand that Blue Panorama a charter service has placed a order for (4) and that First Choice placed a order for (6) and know they fly charter and scheduled service also. Just curious has to thoughts on who will be the first major European legacy carrier to fly the 7e7.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
aa777jr
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:19 pm

I'm pulling for LH. Would suit them very well for their current route structure and fleet age.


Regards,
AA777jr

[Edited 2005-01-06 08:25:31]
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rjpieces
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:22 pm

BA, AZ, LH, and LOT are all possibilities. Although LH has raised some objections about the 7E7 not having sidesticks, I still think they will go for it since there is no other plane that can replace their A300s.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
greaser
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:25 pm

Possible LOT, Finnair, Alitalia, Thomsonfly??, Lauda, maybe SAS, Martinair & also possibly another European charter.
Now you're really flying
 
Udo
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:25 pm

Probably British Airways goes for the B7E7, as a B767 replacement. They could use it both on long haul and certain European routes - a task which cannot be done by A330s or A350s.
BA is a candidate for some hot orders...B7E7, B773ER, A380.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

And we shouldn't forget Lufthansa. They really need a A300 replacement for European and domestic routes. Only the B7E7 seems to be a perfect option. It would also be an addition, not a rival, to the current A333 fleet on medium and long haul routes.

I would rule out Air France and KLM. But Alitalia comes to mind as well - B767 replacement...but they need some cash first...  Wink/being sarcastic

Anyways, I see great chances for the B7E7 with European legacy carriers. Simply because Airbus is not able to offer a B7E7-3 rival.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Udo
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:30 pm

Lufthansa's sidestick demand may be a problem - but if there's no other alternative they have to accept the yoke. Maybe they are wildly talking to Boeing about a yoke-to-sidestick conversion option? Technically it should be possible - and other airlines certainly would prefer sidesticks too.

Anyways, the MD-11 is also yoke-controlled and LH Cargo found it to be the perfect freighter. Let's wait and see.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
BMI701EGCC
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:15 pm

The TUI group could invest in the 7e7, a good bet for me.
LH and AF is also an possibility.


Scott Waterworth
BMI701EGCC
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NumberTwelve
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:46 pm

Didn't a netter write that LH isn't reliable and they only are negotiating and don't buy Boeing planes?
If so, Boeing shouldn't negotiate with LH, B can afford it  Wink/being sarcastic

I guess it will take some time that the big European carrier will buy the 7e7 - there is no need to hurry and they will wait for more details of the 350.

[Edited 2005-01-06 10:47:02]
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Ready4Pushback
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:43 pm

From what I see on the news, I would have thought that BA wouldn't have the cash to be in the running for ordering the 7E7. I would love to see it - but isn't it wishful thinking?
 
N79969
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:31 pm

I am one of those who believes that there is close to zero chance that Lufthansa will buy a Boeing airplane in the foreseeable future. Lufthansa has become a de-facto pure Airbus customer which is a perfectly fine way of running a business.

However, the increasingly hollow insistence by Lufthansa that they do not rely on a single supplier needs to be taken with a cup of salt or two.

I think the leading candidates would be British Airways and KLM. They are both longtime Boeing customers that do not yet have A330s in the fleet. KLM could probably sell off delivery positions if it wanted to and get a good deal on the 7E7. BA has kept 767s on the lot for a while and they could have replaced them with A330 already. I think the 7E7 has a decent shot with both companies.
 
QuestAir
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Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:37 pm

In my opinion, BA, LH, and Lauda would make the best fits for the 7E7. AF has already got a new batch of A330s.
'Do we carry rich people on our flights? Yes, I flew on one this morning and I�m very rich.' - Michael O'Leary
 
Alitalia744
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:57 pm

Alitalia has in the passed publicly stated their intent on buying the 7E7. Funds may not be there, but look for the sharkfin to fly someday in the 'tricolore' bandera di Alitalia!

While the A350 may be looked at, IMHO it won't be ordered. AZ is intent on building up their 777 fleet (they have had exceptional results with the aircraft).

Additionally, Alitalia remains committed to Boeing as its sole long-haul aircraft supplier.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
OHLHD
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:00 am

LAUDA will not get any 7E7 because their is no Lauda-Air anymore.

FlyNiki (his new Airline) won´t also as they just have ordered several A32X

OS will go for another 772ER rather then for a 7E7.
AY will go all Airbus, AZ won´t as they have no money.
LH......i would bet a 50 cent that they will.
AF will not, rather go for some 777.
 
Alitalia744
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:05 am

OHLHD-

I wouldn't be too surprised if you see AZ ordering quite soon....  Smile
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
DAYflyer
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:08 am

With LH sidestick demands, would it be possible for Boeing to have one as an option on the aircraft? I'm sure it would attrack other operators as well.
One Nation Under God
 
A350
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:14 am

And we shouldn't forget Lufthansa. They really need a A300 replacement for European and domestic routes. Only the B7E7 seems to be a perfect option. It would also be an addition, not a rival, to the current A333 fleet on medium and long haul routes.

I doubt this. Remember that LH is very slot restricted in FRA and hopes that the new runway will come. If it comes, they might replace many regional widebodies by narrowbodies to increase frequency. It might be wise to keep the A300s until we know if the new runway will come or not.

Furthermore, the 7e7 would kill their commonality concept while the A350 would perfectly integrate into the A330/A340 fleet.

A350
 
Rj111
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:36 am

If you were an airline, you might consider a potential 20% reduction in operating costs for a particular aircraft to be the second coming of Christ.

They might, but unfortunately the 7e7 wont even offer anywhere near 20% lower operating costs over a 763.

[Edited 2005-01-06 16:43:11]
 
NYC777
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:07 am

They might, but unfortunately the 7e7 wont even offer anywhere near 20% lower operating costs over a 763.

I hope you're prepared to eat those words when it does. Want mustard with that?  Insane
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
NumberTwelve
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:14 am

N328...: "If you were an airline, you might consider a potential 20% reduction in operating costs for a particular aircraft to be the second coming of Christ."

The key word is potential - are these 20 % fact? They can't be fact yet. And why should the airlines decide already? There are 2 competitors, one of them promises 20 % less fuel but there is no fact (yet or maybe the 20 % are overstated).

So time is working for airline's desission
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LMP737
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:17 am

Numbertwelve:

So what the other competitor promises is fact?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Rj111
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:28 am

Nyc777, out of interest, do you think fuel costs are the same as operating costs?  Wink/being sarcastic

Want me to pass you the mustard?

[Edited 2005-01-06 17:28:58]
 
NumberTwelve
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:34 am

@LMP - ooops, did I make you angry?
I didn't say that, it's just the fact that the 20 % are on a sheet of paper and looks good. But a promise at the moment - nothing more.

If I said something about a holy cow, please excuse me.  Wink/being sarcastic

But why should airlines believe a marketing campain?
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LMP737
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:53 am

Numbertwelve:

No not really, I'm actually quite laid back. Takes a lot to get me worked up.

When you said "There are 2 competitors, one of them promises 20 % less fuel but there is no fact (yet or maybe the 20 % are overstated" one could interpret that as one being fact and the other just guess work. Guess the proper statement would have been "One promises xx% and the other promises xx%". Hope I didn't throw you a curve ball.  Big grin

P.S. I guess you meant to say "sacred cow".
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
NumberTwelve
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:01 am

@LMP: It wasn't me who was talking about the potential 20 %, and the guy who mentioned it, only was talking about the B 20 %.
But to calm you down, I don't have a problem to change my reply to your x-versions. On the other hand, A350 will roll out in 2009 and in the meantime 7e7 are already flying. So the B promise already can be checked.

And yes, I wrote holy cow and mean sacred cow, didn't know the different wording for "holy cow" - translated each single word.  Wink/being sarcastic

If you were customer, LMP, and there is no urgent need to buy new planes at the moment, would you hurry? Wouldn't you want to wait till the first experiences from minimum 1 plane model would appear.

[Edited 2005-01-06 18:05:24]
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airbazar
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:17 am

Even if it comes up to 20% cheaper operating cost, much of it will be offset by the high cost of a brand new 7E7 vs. an A330/350 or used 767. Not to mention the addition of a whole new type to the fleet. There's no way LH will buy the 7E7 when they can get a cheaper alternative. Not because they'll never buy Boeing, as someone said, which is a false statement based on the large number of Boeing aircraft that they operate.

BA is very likely to be one of the very few European airlines to buy the 7E7. The 7E7 was not made for the European market in the same way the A380 was not made for the American market. The geographic location of most European countries and the congestion at their airports does not favor an aircraft like the 7E7 for their airlines. Add to it that some of the countries in question are highly invested in Airbus, and you have a tremendous pressure to favor Airbus aircraft.

This is one reason why I don't see LOT buying a 7E7 either. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a trememndous pressure for them to buy Airbus given the millions of Euros in development aid that Poland is receiving from the EU for joining the Union.
 
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N328KF
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:20 am

Airbazar:

That would be sound logic if the 7E7 cost more than the A350.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
NumberTwelve
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:22 am

N328, of course the 350 will be much more cheaper because A is selling it's planes for nothing, they don't need to earn money with it and get lots of subsidies  Wink/being sarcastic
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Rj111
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:32 am

Even if it comes up to 20% cheaper operating cost, much of it will be offset by the high cost of a brand new 7E7 vs. an A330/350 or used 767. Not to mention the addition of a whole new type to the fleet. There's no way LH will buy the 7E7 when they can get a cheaper alternative. Not because they'll never buy Boeing, as someone said, which is a false statement based on the large number of Boeing aircraft that they operate.

Well for starters the 7e7 wont have 20% lower operating costs it will have 20% lower fuel costs at best which will equate to about 10%-12% operating costs savings. And that figure is only vrs current "aircraft of its size" ie a 767 and not the A350 which will undoubtably cut that savings. Then consider that Boeing and Airbus both overtalk the actual saving figures and you'll realise the dfference is minimal. Which is why Airbus are listing more for the larger A350.
 
LMP737
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:36 am

Numbertwelve:

If you were customer, LMP, and there is no urgent need to buy new planes at the moment, would you hurry? Wouldn't you want to wait till the first experiences from minimum 1 plane model would appear.

By the way you worded it I guess I would be inclined to wait fro the aircraft to enter airline service. However as we all know launch customers get a good deal on aircraft. Better those ordering latter. So lets say xyz says there will be a 20% improvement in operating costs. With all the computer models and wind tunnel testing now a days chances are their estimates will be pretty accurate.

As a launch customer not only will I get a good deal but I'll have a leg up on the competition by securing delivery slots. And lets say it turns out that it's only 19% improvement over previous models of aircraft. That's still a 19% advantage. So I guess I'll have to say if I owned an airline and had the funds I would role the dice and order it.

Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Spike
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:42 am

And that's why you are not and never will be in aircraft management.
 
NumberTwelve
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:45 am

@LMP - but you only have one launch customer, or do you mean the planes which will be ordered before roll-out get a good deal?
And are you talking about 20 % less operating costs. So did B really promise 20 % less operating costs or fuel usage?

I don't know American law but when I am buying a car in Germany and the manufacturer promises much less fuel usage and this amount is wrong, customer can reduce price or delete contract if difference is too big. So how has Boeing to react?
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columba
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:08 am

I still have high hopes for Lufthansa ordering the 7e7-3 as an A306 replacement.
They were looking for one for years. The only thing that LH bothers right now is that the 7e7 doesn´t really fit their commonality concept - which works great for them.
But the A300 has no commonality with the other Airbusses in LH fleet aswell, they will fly the 744 for a foreseeable future, LH Cargo is flying the MD 11 (I know LHC is a different company) even when the A380 arrives.
They will also order the 717 or Embraer within the next 2 years and are looking for a 737 replacement.
Commonality is great but Airbus can fit all gaps so they have to order at other manufacturers and have some "island solutions" in their fleet.
Another reason for the 7E7 is maintance. LH is making big money in that business aswell, if they have the 7e7 in their fleet, they could offer to maintain other carrier´s 7e7s aswell. LH is doing a similar thing with engines and operates engines from all manufacturers, only to be qualified with the maintance.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
boeingfever777
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:22 am

Well I personally think that BA or AZ will be first major European legacy carrier to order the 7e7. Also what about IB what are there future fleet plans? I know they just recently got there (2) newest A340-642's but would they ever place even a small order for the 7e7?

Thanks for all the replies.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
Korg747
Posts: 502
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:40 am

About the Side stick thing. Whether it's there or not the 7E7 is going to still not have any commontality with the rest of LHs fleet. I do agree that LH is just playing around with Boeing to get Airbus to do something about it. Come to think of it, The introduction of the 7e7(A new type) in LH's fleet can cost a lot too

[Edited 2005-01-06 20:42:56]
Please excuse my English!
 
DeltaWings
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:57 am

The geographic location of most European countries and the congestion at their airports does not favor an aircraft like the 7E7 for their airlines.

Are you trying to say, that the extra range on the 7e7 compared to the 767 is not needed in Europe? If so, oneday those 767s will just have to go and be replaced. And there are alot of 767s still flying in europe.
Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
 
airbazar
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:29 am

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Range wise, what advantage does the 7E7 bring to LH, LOT, AF, AZ, over a cheaper A330/B767? In other words, would the 7E7 open up new non-stop destinations for these airlines that can't be reached with a cheaper 330/767; or the A350 in case of airlines like LH, IB that favor Airbus?
Charter airlines are a bit different but it still applies. I understand that in 10-15 years the 767's will need replacement but that's a long way in today's airline industry. Alitalia may not even be around in 5 years. Deciding what plane to fly in 10 is the least of their worries.
 
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N328KF
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:32 am

Airbazar:

He's saying that the 767s have to be replaced anyhow (due to airframe age), and the logical successors are the 7E7 (or A350.) So why not replace them with something that burns less fuel? Oh, and by the way, you get an extra 4000km range out of it!

Just like all of the airlines that bought 772Bs when they only needed 772As.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
columba
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:53 am

@Airbazar

The A330 is no replacement for the A300-600. Lufthansa said that a couple of times that the A330-200 is too big for the routes LH is flying with the A306 and the costs are to high to be a A300 replacement. The big advantage of Boeing is the 7e7-3. Lufthansa has surley no real need for the 7e7-8 or -9 at the moment since they are completely satisfied with their A340/A330 fleet.
In the future -for their long range routes - they would surly go with the A350 as an A340 replacement.
Regarding commonality Lufthansa is interested in the rumored 737 succesor on 7e7 technology.

Like I said above I have high hopes that LH will order the 7e7-3.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
flyinTLow
Posts: 460
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:09 am

I absolutely have to agree that LH is very likely to order the 7E7. They are very Airbus friendly (who blames them, many US airlines are more friendly of their "home-made" aircraft as well), Airbus doesn't offer a good successor to the A306, and LH certainly cannot afford to wait around a whole lot longer with replacing those aircraft, not only because of the age of the aircraft, but also because of the capacity problems they are experiencing in Frankfurt.

I also read an article with Mayrhuber (in Focus I think it was) about LH cargo thinking about ordering 777-300 LR. In the article, he stated that neither Lufthansa Cargo, Passage, nor City Line intend to be a "one-manifacturer-only" airline.
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
viasamsy
Posts: 82
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:28 am

Why would an airline prefer sidestick Vs. yoke or viceversa?. Just simple fleet commonality or are there any other technical issues of interest?. Just curious. Cheers
Rebuild New Orleans!!!
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:33 am

Hi all,

I think BA, cos they have an aging fleet of B757's and B767's. I think they would want to replace them within the next 2-3 years.

Dog
 
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N328KF
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:44 am

ViasaMSY:

There is a certain contingent here who have alleged that some air carriers will only order aircraft with sidesticks. It usually goes along with the assertation that Lufthansa is one of those carriers.

However, every single time I've seen it mentioned on Airliners.net, it's by someone who was not a pilot themselves, or affiliated with the airline. It's also based upon the presumption that the pilot's preference in this case would override all other factors.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
columba
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:49 am

@FlyinTLow

You mean the 777-200LRF not the -300. Lufthansa will not make a decision wether they order the A380F or 777LRF before 2007 (Aero International Heft 1 2005). Since they just got enough MD-11s.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
LMP737
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:54 am

Numbertwelve:

@LMP - but you only have one launch customer, or do you mean the planes which will be ordered before roll-out get a good deal?

No, there can be more than one.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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glideslope
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:58 am

Side sticks are not the flight control of choice for the majority of commercial pilots. 8 out of 10 will admit this over a beer or two.

A center stick such as in the C-17 could be natural in orientation. Side sticks only belong in HOTAS fighter aircraft.

I'll take my Yoke sunny side up ever time.  Smile

[Edited 2005-01-07 00:59:30]
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
ardian
Posts: 501
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:15 am

Blue Panorama and First Choice Airways became the first European 7E7 Dreamliner customers in July 2004.
Source: Boeing website (at "Continuing Progress" located at the bottom of the page)
 
nucsh
Posts: 181
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:29 am

Someone mentioned ruling out KLM and AF... Well, don't they have aging 767s too? If you're saying that the 7E7 could replace other airline's 767s and such, then why couldn't KLM and AF use it to do the same? (I have no idea what could or couldn't be used in with those two airlines to replace anything, nor do I know their route structure. Just asking a question.  Smile )
If landing is about "kissing" the ground, you just about raped it.
 
ba757
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:29 am

I think BA, cos they have an aging fleet of B757's and B767's. I think they would want to replace them within the next 2-3 years.

Not strictly true, some of BA's 757's are not that old. Don't have the dates to hand, but mid 1990s for a fair few of them.

Adam
 
schreiner
Posts: 909
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:37 am

Virgin Atlantic?
They are most likely to introduce some new stuff?
Soaring the internet...
 
nudelhirsch
Posts: 1371
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First European 7E7 Customer?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:47 am

How much of a factor is fleet commonality in reality? The A350 will be a new type rating as well, maybe reduced to some point, but the difference will be low. If an airline acquires, let's say, 20 or 30 frames of a new model to their fleet, with that investion the commonality is not a factor. Then it all boils down to economics. Which involves a huge set of factors, such as efficiency, COSM, operating costs, mx, and and and...
Also the purchasing deal will be important, and if Boeing acts like Airbus, giving away planes for "ein Appel und ein Ei" (German expression for: cheap cheap cheap) they can steal this order, or catch it, or whatever, but gaining a major launch customer in Europe, a major legacy carrier and a good amount of sold frames, might give a good boost to their overall sales. And with a possible upcoming 737-successor on base of the 7e7, Lufthansa might get a better commonality-deal here than with ordering another Airbus which yet has to proof the commonality aspect, either towards the 32s or the 33/34.
Other than that I only see one problem for the Boeing deal... if I recall that correctly, Deutsche Bank is a big shareholder of LH, holding a seat in the supervisory board, as well as they do with Daimlerchrysler, even providing (indirectly) the chairman of Daimlerchryslers board, Hilmar Kopper, who is also chairman of the board of Deutsche Bank. Daimlerchrysler is the German founding partner of Airbus... and here it gets interesting... Big grin
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos