SLC1
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What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:35 pm

This question obviously has in mind short-haul small markets.

What's the big deal with jets? Airlines pride themselves on having an all-jet fleet. I understand that jets are faster, but not by all that much, especially for shorter hauls. I would rather fly a Q400 than a CRJ-700 any day, or a Q300 than a CRJ-200 (although I do like the ERJ-145). Plus, from an economic standpoint they can't be beat. What boggles my mind even more is planes like the 328JET when there are Saabs, Dash 8s, Brasilias, 328s, and more.

From a customer's point of view the flight time shouldn't make that much of a difference, and half the time passengers don't even know what type of plane they're flying on.

I understand customer perception ways in a bit, but I have to reason that economic benefit more than outweighs any minimal negative perception of having a prop fleet.
We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean
 
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N328KF
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:21 pm

What will be interesting is, after a decade or so of anti-propeller spin by some groups, what will happen if someone comes up with a tilt-rotor regional aircraft? Will public perception count against that?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
greaser
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:44 pm

What will be interesting is, after a decade or so of anti-propeller spin by some groups, what will happen if someone comes up with a tilt-rotor regional aircraft? Will public perception count against that?

After the often overrated Osprey incidents with the USMC, these 'groups' have enough political/social ammo to supply a small army. It's gonna take alot of guts to introduce a Bell/Boeing Osprey type for the civilian sector.

Plus, from an economic standpoint they can't be beat.
In no way is my info scientific, and you may call me biased against the flying sticks, but have a look at this:

Delta Air Lines, RJs?? YES
American Airlines, RJs?? YES
United Airlines, RJs?? YES
US Airways, RJs?? YES
Air Canada, RJs?? YES

Emirates, RJs?? NO
Singapore Airlines, RJs?? NO
Malaysia Air System, RJs?? NO
Virgin Atlantic, RJs?? NO
Etihad, RJs?? NO
KLM, RJs?? (Excluding KLM UK) NO
Air France, RJs?? NO

Now we all know that Bankruptcy is caused by a series of events, but those RJs sure didn't help the airlines out during the fuel spike

Now you're really flying
 
xpfg
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:53 pm

Air France does have these operated by BritAir, just as UA does by a third party carrier.


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schooner
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:55 pm

I think he is referring more to shorter haul fleets (he even says that!) so giving examples such as Virgin, Emirates, Etihad & Singapore is pointless. They are generally long haul airlines so obviously would not have RJs or turboprops and your argument is baseless on that point.

Cheers.
Untouched and Alive
 
RedDragon
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:00 pm

What will be interesting is, after a decade or so of anti-propeller spin by some groups, what will happen if someone comes up with a tilt-rotor regional aircraft? Will public perception count against that?

Don't forget the Bell/Agusta (initially Bell/Boeing) BA609 - still undergoing a rather tortuous development, with certification currently planned for 2007. Whether the aircraft is going to be a commercial success unfortunately seems highly debatable - Bell/Agusta apparently have around 60 orders, down from over 100 IIRC a few years ago.

In no way is my info scientific, and you may call me biased against the flying sticks, but have a look at this:

Admittedly I find the US RJ situation eternally confusing, but is the relationship between mainline carriers and their regional affiliates any different to that between comparable airlines in, for example, Europe? AF has RJs flown by franchises including CityJet and Regional, BA franchises include British Mediterranean, GB Airways, Loganair and Sun-Air, and so on. (Not to mention CitiExpress, which is wholly owned by BA...)
 
rwylie77
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:13 pm

Do Virgin, Emirates, Etihad & Singapore operate turbo props? If not then you can't make a comparison.

Regional Jets are quieter than turbo props are they not, which makes the ride more comfortable...but I agree on short flights it won't make much of a difference and people are price sensitive more than they are noise senstitive...
 
philhyde
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:16 pm

Yes turbo-props are noisy, especially on take-off. On the Saab 340 the whole cabin shakes and vibrates. It gets better during cruise, but some places in the a/c (depending on vibrations) can be hard to hold a conversation. We fly these planes a-la Northwest Airlink and I'm glad it's only a 50 minute flight.

cheers,
Phil
Canon junkie - Aviation Nut
 
corey07850
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:50 am

and half the time passengers don't even know what type of plane they're flying on.

True, but i bet 99.999% of the time the passenger knows the difference between and a jet and a propeller powered aircraft.

In reality it is simply a marketing ploy to entice passengers to fly their "state-of-the-art" jets rather than the rickety old props.
 
Leskova
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:01 am

The problem is purely one of perception - I would not be surprised if passengers (regular passengers, not plane freaks) were asked which plane they thought was more modern, and were shown pictures of a B737-200 and a Dash 8-400Q, if most (or at least the majority) would identify the B737-200 as the more modern one.

The perception is that turboprops look similar to DC3s and similar props (well... ok... not the plane itself, but the powerplant), so they must be about as old.

Perception is an interesting thing... and people are so easily fooled...  Big grin

There was once the following problem at a German airport (I think it was CGN) - this was sometime shortly after the Birgenair crash in 1996...

The passengers were waiting to board a charter flight to Turkey when one passenger noticed the Russian letters at the front of the plane - it was a Tupolev 154... immediately "identifying" this as one of those "old and unsafe Russian planes", the passengers (or most of them) refused to board - so the airline offered to transfer them by bus to DUS, from where they had another flight, operating on an A300 - the passengers agreed, because they all preferred to fly on a modern plane.

The Tupolev 154 was around one year old (not sure how old exactly - but it was quite a new plane at the time)... the A300 was almost 20 years old.

Perception... what a nice thing...  Big grin

Regards,
Frank


[Edited 2005-01-06 17:04:05]
Smile - it confuses people!
 
SLC1
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:25 am

Now we all know that Bankruptcy is caused by a series of events, but those RJs sure didn't help the airlines out during the fuel spike

Uh... RJ=Regional Jets, the question was about props.
We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean
 
ltbewr
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:12 am

Props usually = small a/c, usually under 50 pax and people don't like small a/c's. Props/turboprop a/c are still used in STOL situations, like on some island airports, very short flights (under 45 mins), and where don't have heavy demand. Props also got a bad rep after the ATR crash in cold/icy weather. RJ's and the like seem bigger, precieved to be safer in icy/cold conditions, can be used on low demand yet longer flights (under 2 hours), quieter, cleaner than prop a/c.
 
CRPilot
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:22 am

As compare to mainline:

Less fuel cost per available seat mile = RJ
Less personnel overhead per available seat mile = RJ

As compare to props:

Better performance on longer routes = RJ
Higher altitudes (allowing to fly above most weather) = RJ
Better Customer perception regarding safety = RJ

I do love certain props such as the Q series and the Saab 2000, but airlines today push their regional fleets to the limit, and the jets win hands down.

Oh yeah, I forgot, the most obvious one: "time = money" in this business.
Flying is a privilege!
 
AAgent
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:36 am

Getting beyond all of the rational arguments both for and against jets/props, there's the "glamour factor", as I like to call it. It's not "glamorous" to fly on a noisy vibrating prop plane...and then there are those "unsightly" engines with those spinny things that scare glamorous people. Could you see Paris Hilton walking up to board a SAAB 340B? If she had to ride one, she'd probably throw her Chihuahua at anyone trying to photograph the momentous occasion! "Hello! Jet, please!"

Now I personally like the SAAB (I've flown them so many times it's like an old friend), but it's that darned "glamour factor" that makes for all of the jet craziness!

Regards,
AAgent
War Eagle!
 
gigneil
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:45 am

Air France has many, many RJs. EMB, BAE, as well as the above mentioned CRJ.

N
 
hz747300
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:45 am

and half the time passengers don't even know what type of plane they're flying on.

True, but i bet 99.999% of the time the passenger knows the difference between and a jet and a propeller powered aircraft.


He beat me to it--most will not know or care if they are on a 737 or an A319, but they will know if it has propellers or if it is a jet engine. Jets are perceived as more modern and faster by the general public--that's not going to change and airlines know that.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:50 am

This question obviously has in mind short-haul small markets.

Interesting bit of nostalgic trivia comes to mind, except in this case it's a medium haul route, FAI-SEA, a distance of some 1545 air miles. Alaska Airlines first Alaska-"Lower 48" route, FAI-SEA non-stop, was launched 50 years ago with DC-6 equipment. Scheduled block time on the route was 4 hrs., 7 min., an average speed of 375 mph. Today, the same route, flown by a 737-400, has a scheduled block time of 3 hrs., 40 min., an average speed of 421 mph.

If this info (given by Alaska Airlines) is correct (I somewhat question the average speed of 375 mph. given for a DC-6) then the speed of jets would seem to be highly overated, inasmuch as today's jets cover the route FAI-SEA gate-to-gate in only 27 minutes less than their piston predecessors. What the numbers actually reflect more than anything is the much higher levels of congestion at U.S. airports when comapred to 50 years ago.
 
ac345yyz
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:10 am

To tell you the truth, most people are afraid of the propeller planes, they are noisy, and aren't very comfortable.
AC345YYZ
 
EIPremier
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RE: What's The Big Deal With Jets?

Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:01 pm

Scheduled block time on the route was 4 hrs., 7 min., an average speed of 375 mph. Today, the same route, flown by a 737-400, has a scheduled block time of 3 hrs., 40 min., an average speed of 421 mph.

4 hrs 7 minutes was the record flight time, not the scheduled block time. The average flight time today is also about 3 hrs 10 minutes, while the block time might be 3 hrs 40 minutes.