JonnyGT
Topic Author
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DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:59 pm

And 22 million bucks in incentives to whatever airlines fills the gates that Delta has now left behind at DFW, but there is a catch. It expires in two weeks. Do you guys think any airline will step up to the plate?
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:04 pm

Just a guess here. What if ? Southwest gave ATA some money, ATA moved the operation from MDW to DFW and let the code share begin?


Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:05 pm

Another catch is that the incoming airline must take at least ten of the gates.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:06 pm

Paging Braniff Part IV.

HA HA HA

NOT !
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
bennett123
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:06 pm


Sounds like an ideal opening for a new or existing LCC.
 
ei2ksea
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:09 pm

Could AirTran do it? Maybe link some of the dots on the existing network from DFW with maybe MCI, STL, HOU, MSY, MDW and so on...

It would be a huge and sudden increase but presumably there is some local demand to be shored up after the DL exit...probably too risky i suppose...

Just thinking aloud!...

[Edited 2005-01-07 14:10:18]

[Edited 2005-01-07 14:10:47]

[Edited 2005-01-07 14:11:32]
Next Flight: DUB-BOS (EI), BOS-DEN-PDX (SWA), SEA-BOS (AS)
 
ejmmsu
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:49 am

I think that if Airtran did come to DFW, they should go to destinations outside the wright ammendemnt that currently have a high fare monopoly. SEA, MDW, SFO, SAN, PHX, DEN, STL, BOS, LGA, DCA, CLE, CVG, CLT, MEM and espescially BNA.

DFW-BNA is an outragously priced market. It is often near $500 with 21 day advance purchase! Also, I think the walkup fare is $1285.

Airtran needs a powerful add campaign explaining that AA will match their fares, and what will happen if pax continue to use AA with the lower fares. Airtran will be forced to leave, and fares will go back up. They also need a powerful campaign to get fliers into their frequent flyer program. Maybe double or triple miles for the first few months would do the trick. DFW pax are fed up with the wright ammendment, fed up with high fares, and thirsting for someone to come in and take on AA.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
DAYflyer
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:57 am

I think Airtran or Frontier would be good choices.

I would like for Airtran to do it. They have a presence already and with all the new aircraft they are taking, they could make a pretty good sized dent in AA's dominance there. I really think they could have a go of it. They are better established in the East than America West or Frontier.

I do think they would have to slowly develop it though. If they did it too quick AA would cut them off at the knees.
One Nation Under God
 
stlgph
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:19 am

It'd be great to see ATA jump on this opportunity with Southwest's backing.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
flashmeister
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For

Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:38 am

No LCC has the excess capacity necessary to jumpstart 10 gates at DFW. That part of DFW's offer is a bit unreasonable, in my view. F9 won't do it because they got bit at LAX. FL might do it, but they're not exactly firing on all cylinders lately, so will they do it well? No one knows.

I think that DFW's dreaming if they expect some LCC to all-of-the-sudden divert 10 gates worth of traffic to Dallas overnight. Just too much!
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:45 am

Hell, I think that FL should just take up the gates now!
Figure if FL takes 10...CO has like 3, NW probably 3, Delta would have 3 or 4...then AM/Sun Country/Champion with one for all 3. That's 20...Are E22-E30 RJ gates or can any plane use them?

If E22-E30 can't be used by regular jets, it's 20/28! So, B6 and F9 could come in there maybe...maybe they could split the 10 gates...B6 using 2 sattelite gates for their E190s.
So, actually adding E22-E30 back in...we have
10 for FL
3 for CO
3 for NW
4 for DL
1 for others
5 for F9
5 for B6
-------
31 total/38...not too bad...AA could snatch up the other 7
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
ckfred
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:48 am

I don't see WN doing this. They seem more interested in getting the Wright Amendment repealed and expanding at DAL.
 
as739x
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:49 am

AirTran,Frontier, heck no one has the a/c to take up something like this. This is a strech for a big boys. Not that these LCC these days are not big boys. I don't think anyone is going to bite in my opinion.


ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
flashmeister
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For

Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:25 am

You and I are exactly on the same page, As739x...

10 gates is way too big of a commitment for just about anyone. For comparison:

- F9 has 16 gates in DEN
- FL has 22 gates at ATL
- AS/QX has 20 gates at PDX and 38 gates at SEA
- B6 has 13 (I think?) gates at JFK
- WN has 11 gates at OAK, 14 at DAL, 12 at LAX, and 10 at BNA

If DFW has the expectation that anyone can just 'drop-in' an operation that even comes close to half of F9 at DEN or all of WN at BNA, at the drop of a hat, they're on some serious dope. In most cases, that's something like 70+ flights a day, right out of the chute.

That just doesn't happen.
 
stirling
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:53 am

I like the idea of WN giving TZ a blank check to shift their operations to DFW, unfortunately it will never happen. The airport can sure use the competition. But I can't help to think that when the day comes that AA and WN meet head to head in battle, (it will ultimately have to happen one day) it will be with WN's own metal.

I am confused,
I think that if Airtran did come to DFW, they should go to destinations outside the wright ammendemnt that currently have a high fare monopoly. SEA, MDW, SFO, SAN, PHX, DEN, STL, BOS, LGA, DCA, CLE, CVG, CLT, MEM and espescially BNA.
I thought airTran already served DFW? to Atlanta and Orlando. No?

What about VirginAmerica?
DFW seems to me better geographically positioned than SFO, don't cha think?
I know Virgin's heart seems to be stuck on San Francisco, (no pun intended) but how much really do we know about this unseen entrant?

The imminent vacancies at DFW were a "made in heaven" gift for airTran. Whether or not they are able to respond to the opportunity is another question. OK, so they're aren't a lot of 717s and 73Gs out there on the open market, there's gotta be some other 737 variants and MDs out there, enough available on short-term lease, until the assembly line can start cranking out what they want.
DFW is screaming for airTran. Will they hear? Will they be able to get the lenders to agree? It'll be darn interesting to watch unfold.



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n757kw
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:41 am

Forget free, just pay for the gates you need. Plus DFW could at least make some money on the empty gates. Not a bad idea though, but the takers may be few and far between.

Off course AA could just snap those 10 free gates up in a heart beat.

N757KW
"What we've got here, is failure to communicate." from Cool Hand Luke
 
jcs17
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:53 am

DFW would probably have a better chance of earning back the money if they tied that obnoxious c%#% Laura Miller (Dallas mayor), to a out-of-service DL ticket kiosk and allowed airport patrons one punch for a dollar.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
nomorerjs
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:29 am

Sign me up for the first 10 punches on that b----!
 
ejmmsu
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:47 am

I thought airTran already served DFW? to Atlanta and Orlando. No?


I was loosly meaning airtran should significantly increase thier presence. They also fly to LAX from DFW.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
OPNLguy
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For

Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:16 am

>>>DFW-BNA is an outragously priced market. It is often near $500 with 21 day advance purchase! Also, I think the walkup fare is $1285.

With American announcing that they're adopting Delta's fare philosophy, that may shortly no longer be the case...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
OB1504
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:22 am

OK, so they're aren't a lot of 717s and 73Gs out there on the open market, there's gotta be some other 737 variants and MDs out there, enough available on short-term lease, until the assembly line can start cranking out what they want.

Maybe they'll get Ryan International to fly some routes out of DFW until AirTran can get the A/C necessary for the additional services?
 
mmcdow
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:16 am

I typed this up to start a new thread but I decided to tag onto this one. Forgive me for repeating what has already been stated.

With last week’s announcement of DFW’s incentives to get a LLC to move into Terminal E, there is a lot of speculation as to who will take the bait. Everyone in the media seems to think it is a last ditch effort on the part of DFW to get Southwest over here (or ammo against WN in the fight to uphold the Wright Amendment according to a commentary in yesterday’s Ft. Worth Star Telegram). In any case the restrictions placed by the airport to receive the incentives limit who can provide service just because of the size of the operation required, a minimum of 10 gates and 70% of seats to new destinations. Whoever it is, Marketing seems to think they won’t have any problems with the January 21st deadline for airlines to express interest, which makes me think they’ve already got someone on the hook.

One point that I overlooked in the announcement is that American will be adding 4 new gates in Terminal B. So which gates will they be using? Unless they take back some of their Eagle gates the obvious choice is the 4 Air Tran gates next to Eagle. This puts Air Tran back in E? Air Tran also lost the bid for the Midway gates, which frees up a lot of capital to expand elsewhere. My personal thought is they are an outside candidate but they don’t have the clout in this area to compete with AA. I could be wrong though.

Last night I was talking to a guy that works for ASA who is staying to the very end and he stated there has been a lot of activity going on in Terminal E. He said he saw representatives from Jet Blue out there last week just before the announcement and a lot contractors carrying around drawings. If my memory is correct, just last week Jet Blue stated they were not interested in coming to DFW any time soon. Where they just seeing what they were passing up?

Frankly Southwest is the best candidate to take it to AA but I will believe it when I see it. They’ve got a lot other expansions going on and DFW may have burned that bridge when they accused WN of sabotaging other LLC’s in coming out here. Who knows what they are really thinking though.

In any case DFW needs another large carrier out here and they know it. Right now American and Eagle have close to 75% of the market share and Delta hasn’t left yet. I assume that is the reason for large incentive package proposed by the airport instead of going after 10 niche airlines to fill E.

Matt McDowell
 
quickmover
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:19 am

When does Delta pull down at DFW or have they already?
 
kkfla737
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:30 am

When does Delta pull down at DFW or have they already?

January 31st





 
airstatdfw
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:01 am

I thought airTran already served DFW? to Atlanta and Orlando. No?

AirTran flies to ATL, MCO, BWI, LAS, LAX, FLL.

If E22-E30 can't be used by regular jets, it's 20/28!

The satellite gates can be used by aircraft other than RJ's. They have to re-attach Jet bridges to the building. You can see the gates numbers on the doors but no jet bridges attached.

AirStatDFW


 
ATLhomeCMH
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:11 am

Forget WN, and look out...FL is movin on in!  Smile
"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
 
quickmover
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:12 am

Have you heard something or is this a guess?
 
roguetrader
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:59 am

DFW-BNA is an outrageously priced market. It is often near $500 with 21 day advance purchase! Also, I think the walkup fare is $1285. With American announcing that they're adopting Delta's fare philosophy, that may shortly no longer be the case...

The walk up fare is $1081 to BNA and $1018 to Memphis tomorrow. By comparison, the walk up fare is $293 to LAX, well over a thousand miles further away. AA abuses DFW unmercifully where there is only other legacy competition.

What everyone doesn't get here is that DFW doesn't WANT a discount carrier to take up these gates, but must act as if they do. DFW is in bed with AA and set the 10 gate offer high because it knew it would be virtually impossible for a LCC to establish such a large operation so fast and keep up with the required flights that are part of the deal.

Furthermore, DFW is undertaking a massive PR campaign to keep the Wright Ammendment in place, which began with this gem:

http://www.dfwairport.com/mediasite/pdf/04/12/011204-delta.pdf

DFW's main objective is to paint itself as weaker than it is, and deserving of protection. They'll be able to point to this bogus free gate offer, which is in reality no offer at all, as "proof" that they want greater LCC presence at DFW, that DFW still needs protection. They want to imply that WN is bad for not moving to DFW from DAL, and that the airport is actually trying to protect the interests of the community by attracting competition in DFW. Don't forget that the new international terminal will be coming on line soon, meaning even more capacity at DFW. DFW knows that AA is their bread and butter, everything they do is to protect AA, although they have to hide their motivations. They should give away free gates for ANYONE, not just for those that want to start a hub.

Here's how DFW plans for this to play out:

1. DFW is shown as needing continued Wright Ammendment Protection, citing the 'proof' that Delta left and that no one took them up on their 'free gate' offer
2. DFW's main benefactor, AA, is protected from increased LCC presence at DFW, specifically from WN, which could put AA out of business if it could get unrestricted flying from Love
3. No one accepts the free gate offer, except maybe AA

Of course, a lot of things could go wrong. One of the funniest things that could happen is if WN decided to come in, which would be a complete backfire for the AA/DFW dichotomy, who are playing this with the assumption that WN will never leave Love.

Remember, DFW's main purpose in life is to protect AA. Don't take everything DFW says at face value. I have no doubt they could have kept Delta in DFW with enough incentives - the hub was improving and showing signs of growth.

kind regards,

RogueTrader
 
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chrisnh
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:14 am

I agree that DFW's main emphasis is to keep the incumbent happy, and that's AA. There's no secret in that. The thinly-veiled intimacy between Ft. Worth Government officials, DFW, and AA is causing what you see now: near-pleading by DFW for some carrier--any carrier--to occupy the now-abandoned gates. Free gates, you say? Ah, but there's most certainly a catch. The gates may be free to enter but prohibitively expensive to exit. Without a shred of doubt, the 'free' gates come with strings attached so that any accepting carriers will probably have to sign a long-term lease and pay handsomely if the wish to terminate early. Airlines: Say NO to this filthy scam. DFW is bedding one airline and that airline is AA.
 
N839MH
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:37 pm

Rogue Trader, you are absolutely correct, DFW could have kept Delta here in DFW, but that would have made it a manege a trois with AA and DFW.

Look for Delta to slowly expand their schedule after the dust settles in February. Eventually all the airlines (well most) in terminal B will start
moving to the open gates at Terminal E this spring. Airtran should be
back in terminal E by April....at least thats the lastest being said.

As for Jetblue, don't anticipate DFW on the radar screen for them coming.
Solodude!
 
nisson
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:58 pm

Anyone know whats to become of the Delta maintance building, according to early reports, they suppose to also close it by feb05, any incentives by dfw officials to lease them or will it be just a ghost building

[Edited 2005-01-14 05:59:27]

[Edited 2005-01-14 06:00:11]
 
mmcdow
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:57 pm

Before you say DFW is protecting AA and does not want another major carrier, consider this…

The financial impact of Delta’s reduced schedule on the airport’s annual budget is estimated to be $35M (which is 7% of the operating budget) in lost landing fees, gate rentals and concessions. Last year at this time we were beginning to see a recovery in airline operations and subsequently the airport’s financial statements. This setback will probably erase the last year’s worth of growth that the airport enjoyed. To make matters worse, the airport will bring the new Skylink / Terminal D online this year and begin paying for the $2.7B debt. Suddenly DFW, which has been one of the cheapest airports to operate from, is not so cheap. Who will end up paying for it? The existing airlines will pay for it and they are not too thrilled about that.

Because of this, DFW needs to fill the 24 remaining gates in Terminal E and not just airlines moving from Terminal B.

Also, DFW prides itself on being the "Economic Engine of North Texas" but that won’t have quite the same meaning considering it is estimated that the area will lose $782M annually because of Delta’s reduced schedule.

On a different note, if American had its way, they would take all of A, B, C and D! But we shall see.

Matt McDowell
 
WesternDC1010
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:09 pm

I was just there earlier in the month and boy, what a ghost town Terminal E is!

How many and what gates will Delta keep? Will the satellite commuter gates be included with the gates up for grabs as well?

- Ron
Western DC-10-10
Western Airlines - The Only Way To Fly
 
ord
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:55 pm

Delta will be keeping four gates in the main terminal, although I can't recall which ones. They will also be keeping one Crown Room Club (the other two are already closed/will close).
 
mmcdow
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:48 am

Delta is keeping gates E-12 thru E-15. The gates left vacant will be E-10 / E-11 and anything south of E-15 (including the satellite terminal).

Matt
 
quickmover
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 am

What's the satellite teminal? Is that RJ only or does it have gates and how many?
 
N839MH
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RE: DFW Airport Offers Delta's Abandoned Gates For Fre

Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:40 am

The satellite terminal is a group of 9 gates (22-30) which were built in the early 90's I believe, not sure exactly when it was opened. At one time, DL boarded enough paxs in just those gates to place it in the top 10 of boardings within Delta, system wide.

The airlines in Terminal B will eventually move to Terminal E this spring, then AA/Eagle will (or want to ) take over all of terminal B.

Let AA pay for all the new improvements at DFW...they can afford it...of course their employees will probably be asked to take another paycut this year.

The Delta Mtc Hangar is supposed to close February, big rumor is that UPS will be taking over the hangar.

[Edited 2005-01-14 18:42:26]
Solodude!