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lindy field
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One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:01 pm

I just saw an article in yesterday's (January 7, 2005) San Diego Union-Tribune on the progress in choosing a site for a new international airport in San Diego to replace overcrowded Lindbergh Field. Apparently, the Airport Authority has eliminated the Corte Madera Valley site, the one located by a computer search after the Authority had chosen a number of other sites to investigate.

"The San Diego County Regional Airport Authority yesterday unanimously rejected any further consideration of the wilderness location in East County, the product of a countywide computer search for overlooked sites that meet minimal standards for an airport."

Apparently Corte Madera Valley was too far from San Diego's population centers, would have destroyed wilderness areas, and might have been vulnerable to fires.

"Still in the running are sites near Borrego Springs and the Campo/Boulevard/Manzanita area, and the Imperial County desert. A major expansion of Lindbergh Field also is under consideration. The agency also wants to study up to five military sites – the Marines' Miramar Air Station, East Miramar, Camp Pendleton, the Navy's North Island Air Station and March Air Reserve Base in Riverside County – depending on the outcome of this year's federal review of possible base closures."

For the full article, see http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20050107-9999-2m7airport.html

Personally, I'm glad to see the Airport Authority is making some progress in removing the most untenable sites from consideration. Hopefully the airport will end up in Miramar.  Smile
 
VS045
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:29 pm

What would become of the Lindbergh field, would it be closed down, or would it be used by LCCs etc.?It's a shame really, because it is nice coming down the "5" or the Pacific Highway and being able to see all the planes!

Cheers,
VS045
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Trvlr
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:54 pm

If a new airport is built at a central location such as Miramar, then Lindbergh will almost certainly be closed. If, however, civic shortsightedness leads to an airport in god knows where in East County, the situation becomes more complicated. Airlines such as Southwest and America West (with large short-haul operations out of San Diego) will push to keep Lindbergh open. A perimeter rule (such as those at LGA and DCA) could be the solution, but that would not only be unattractive to airlines (operations would be split; medium- and long-haul carriers would have a fit), but also hurt growth of the new airport. Yes, some may say that DEN and JFK and IAD, located in areas once considered "the boonies", have grown tremendously and fostered their own niche markets. But San Diego isn't an endless-O&D megalopolis like New York, and it doesn't have the hub potential of Denver or Washington. It can't support two airports, let alone an single ill-conceived new facility.

The only way I can see an airport work in Campo, Borrego, or, god forbid, Imperial County, is if the Airport Authority shuts down Lindbergh and forces the airlines east. Yet I don't see that happening, and even if it did, you'd see defections to LA and Orange County increase exponentially.

A far-off airport in Campo or Borrego or Imperial would not become the Dulles of San Diego, it would be the Mirabel. The day an airport opens out there is the day I start to think of John Wayne as my hometown gateway.

Aaron G.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:14 pm

Ahh, the biannual "New San Diego Airport" thread....ok, here's my usual take-your-heads-out-of-the-sand perspective.

There will be no new commercial airport in San Diego. San Diego is filled with formidable NIMBYs (Not In My BackYard). Other sites are too environmentally sensitive due to San Diego being already over developed. Lindbergh is not overcrowded. It has many years of capacity left. RJs can become 737s or A319/20s, those can be replaced with 757s/321s/7e7s, etc. Airlines will replace equipment to meet the demand. There are many years of landing and takeoff capacity at San Diego. Those wanting a new airport want nonstop flights to the world. Sorry, get over it. You'll have to live with one stop connections to get to Asia, Europe, etc. Lindbergh will continue to be improved and new terminals built. The land that the airport has to work with has actually increased over the past few years, though none of it is useful for runway expansion.

Stop dreaming. Learn to love Lindbergh.
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JoFMO
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:07 pm

I have another idea for a new San Diego airport side. It reflects the idea of a bi-national airport like we have in Basle/Mulhouse.

Tijuana airport in Mexico seems to be located parallel to the border line. You could biuld another runway on the USA side of the border. On the south side of the airport you could have an Mexican domestic facility, on the north an USA one, and direct on the border between the runways you could build an international terminal which could be used from boths sides.

This way San Diego - Tijuana International could handle domestic travel from both countries and offer international carriers much better connection oportunities than an airport in only one of the countries.
It would be an interesting facility for European carriers. And due to MEX's limitations of being hot & high it could attract traffic between Mexico-Asia.
And if you handle international connections the Mexican way and prevent people from Southamerica holding US visas, it could even become a major hub in the region.

 
OPNLguy
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:33 pm

For those not familar with the various possible sites under consideration, here's a good website to check out:

http://www.airportsiteselection.com/index.html

Personally, my gut feeling is that they'll either stay with Lindbergh (and put up with the operational limitations caused by the terrain east of the airport) or opt for plan that uses the existing Miramar (NKX) site.

Operationally, NKX has two long parallel runways, no performance issues, and has better landing minimums than those at Lindbergh. The landing minimums at NKX could get even better with a CAT-IIIa installation, something that's not possible at Lindbergh. There are NIMBYs near NKX too, but (1) they should be used to the noise from the existing military aircraft by now, and (2) they should actually hear -less- noise from airline aircraft given that everything is now Stage-3.

It really makes no difference whether the military leaves NKX or not. If they leave, NKX could be "re-cycled" just as the former Bergstrom AFB was to replace AUS's Mueller airport. If the military stays, NKX could become "joint use", just like CHS is today, as well as ABQ (It's also Kirtland AFB).

The NKX would require some additional infrastructure (terminals, hotels, related businesses, etc.) but the bulk of it (runways, taxiways, etc.) are already there. It'd be alot cheaper than starting with "bare earth" somewhere and starting from scratch, as then you need -everything-.

We'll see...
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as739x
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:48 am

JoFMO...you ever been down in the area near TIJ airport? 1) that is a very rough terrain. Its a lot easier on paper then in real life. 2) you alos run into the fact your getting way outside of S.D. As stated abouve by trvlr is that a good chunk of traffic is short hop LCC.
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LMP737
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 3:30 am

If anyone thinks that the Navy would give up NAS North Island I have a bridge I would like to sell you. As for March AFB that's to far of a distance from San Diego to be practical. San Diego would have had the perfect airport if the Navy had closed NAS Miramar instead of transferring it to the USMC. Unfortunately they did the very curious thing of moving the F-14's and E-2's out and then closing Tustin and El Toro and moving the Marines down the road.
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DCAYOW
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 3:41 am


JoFMO - also the relationship between Mexico and the US is a lot different than the relationship between Switz. and France. Although the current TIJ airport is adjacent to the border, there would be serious facilitation/security issues. Swiss and French people can cross their respective borders with ease due to good relations and relative equivalent standards of living. With Mexico and the US it is much more lopsided due to the economic disparity.

Also, the tendency is to build an airport where there is a propensity to travel. The majority people traveling out of SAN are not from the TIJ area. They are from LaJolla, Encinitas, Oceanside, Escondido etc. these areas are north of SAN. While you would capture National City, people in Oceanside might choose to drive to SNA at that point. The county's airport should serve the county.
Retorne ao céu...
 
haveric
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacem

Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:48 am

have they considered a perimiter rule for Lindbergh and a high speed train direct to LAX? That seems the most environemntally friendly...
 
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STT757
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:08 am

Why can't the Marines switch facilities with SAN, the Marine's don't operate as many flights out of Miramar as there are out of SAN. With SAN's close location to the San Diego Naval Station, North Island Field and the Marine Corps Recruit Processing depot I would think there would be great oppurtunities for consolidation with regards to housing, security patrols, common mess halls etc..

They could have a ferry shuttling personal across to North Island where the can live, eat, use the PX etc..

SAN's one runway is more than adequate for the F-18s, C-130s and CH-53s the Marine's operate out of Miramar.

The Marine's helicopters particulary the CH-53 are huge noise makers which probably get the NIMBYS around Miramar and La Jolla upset, the CH-53s have to transit over La Jolla's residential neighborhoods to reach the Ocean.

With the Marine's at SAN the can transit to and from the field with Helicopters over the water thus avoiding downtown and any other residential areas, they can reach areas of Camp Pendleton up the coast without ever passing over someone's house.
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AAR90
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:39 am

Ahh, the biannual "New San Diego Airport" thread....

Yeah, so what's your problem with that? Its only been an ongoing issue for 30+ YEARS!  Nuts

Other sites are too environmentally sensitive due to San Diego being already over developed.

San Diego County is not "over developed;" however, there are no precious level land remaining for a possible airport site.

I have another idea for a new San Diego airport side. It reflects the idea of a bi-national airport like we have in Basle/Mulhouse.

The Bi-lateral [or cross-border] airport concept has been floated numerous times in the past 30+ years. In addition to severe political problems there would be much mountain top destruction required to add a parallel runway capable of instrument approach/departures to the border location. Everytime this option has been forwarded it has eventually been discounted due to the extreme political problems and very expensive/time consuming redistribution of land [environmentalist have had a fun time with each study to date]. Simply put, it will never happen.

It really makes no difference whether the military leaves KNKX or not.

Actually, it does matter... a great deal.

If they leave, KNKX could be "re-cycled" just as the former Bergstrom AFB was to replace KAUS's Mueller airport.

San Diego politicians had that exact opportunity when the BRAC closed NAS Miramar. USN offered the entire site to San Diego for $1.00. Politicians couldn't make up their mind and a year later the following BRAC closed MCAS Tustin & MCAS El Toro and consolidated those assets at [now] MCAS Miramar. IMHO, the ONE true opportunity was totally wasted due to politics.

If the military stays, KNKX could become "joint use", just like KCHS is today, as well as KABQ (It's also Kirtland AFB).

This won't happen. KNKX is much more active today than at virtually any time in its history. KCHS or KABQ or virtually any other military air station doesn't come close to the number and variety of air operations KNKX does on a daily basis. Helos, fighters, tankers, transports, etc., etc., etc. Virtually the entire USMC west coast air operations plus much USN activity in support of CV ops. The rail lines are active once again moving heavy equipment in/out of KNKX to/from Camp Pendleton almost daily. Fully 1/5 of all military personnel in middle-east are San Diego based with most transiting via KNKX.

More than a few years ago when USN was forced (USN didn't want to close "Fightertown") to close KNKX due to BRAC, San Diego had its opportunity as the federal gov't had no active plans for the facilities. A year later, and still no activity by local governments, the following BRAC took the opportunity to consolidated USMC air activites to KNKX (close to Camp Pendleton).

San Diego would have had the perfect airport if the Navy had closed NAS Miramar instead of transferring it to the USMC. Unfortunately they did the very curious thing of moving the F-14's and E-2's out and then closing Tustin and El Toro and moving the Marines down the road.

See the above. USN didn't do it, politically driven BRAC's did. USN did the best it could do under the situation it was given. BRAC had F14s & E2Cs going to NAS Lemoore, but keeping their simulators (lots of them) at KNKX. USN eventually got that changed so the F14s were consolidated at NAS Oceana (with their sims) and E2Cs moved back to North Island (their original west-coast base). BRAC's later closed Tustin & El Toro [NIMBY's much stronger there than in San Diego] and eventually (after much political posturing) moved virtually all USMC air assets to KNKX.

This has been an ongoing issue for more than 30+ years and nothing has happened in those 30+ years. Don't expect anything to come out of the latest political posturing going on now. They're not looking at anything that hasn't been throughly looked at numerous times in the past.
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Goldenshield
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:01 am

" As for March AFB that's to far of a distance from San Diego to be practical."

Not to mention that it's pretty close to ONT.
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Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:19 am

What would become of the Lindbergh field, would it be closed down, or would it be used by LCCs etc.?It's a shame really, because it is nice coming down the "5" or the Pacific Highway and being able to see all the planes!

It would either be closed or turned over to the City for a GA airport. If Miramar is selected, then I can see Montgomery being closed in exchange to eliminate any potential airspace issues.

There will be no new commercial airport in San Diego. San Diego is filled with formidable NIMBYs (Not In My BackYard). Other sites are too environmentally sensitive due to San Diego being already over developed. Lindbergh is not overcrowded. It has many years of capacity left. RJs can become 737s or A319/20s, those can be replaced with 757s/321s/7e7s, etc. Airlines will replace equipment to meet the demand. There are many years of landing and takeoff capacity at San Diego. Those wanting a new airport want nonstop flights to the world. Sorry, get over it. You'll have to live with one stop connections to get to Asia, Europe, etc. Lindbergh will continue to be improved and new terminals built. The land that the airport has to work with has actually increased over the past few years, though none of it is useful for runway expansion.

This post is so innacurate I don't even know where to start. BTW... There has been no useable land increase that would provide any benefit. General Dynamics is useless for a terminal due to the half field north taxiway expansion which requires land from MCRD. That deal, and a north terminal has been dead for over a year. Teledyne on Harbor is a potential superfund site as it has a plume. The only thing that can be done is razing of buildings and paving over without a multi-million dollar environmental clean up. Same with General Dynamics which is why it's still a parking lot. Not to mention the lack of roadway access that cannot be solved. Going west is also now limited due to the way the land was divided up between the airport and the city.

Operationally, NKX has two long parallel runways, no performance issues, and has better landing minimums than those at Lindbergh. The landing minimums at NKX could get even better with a CAT-IIIa installation, something that's not possible at Lindbergh. There are NIMBYs near NKX too, but (1) they should be used to the noise from the existing military aircraft by now, and (2) they should actually hear -less- noise from airline aircraft given that everything is now Stage-3.

Well, sort of. A new airport would include brand new runways to ensure simultanious CAT-III ILS capability. The runways would also shift east a couple of thousand feet to increase the aircraft altitudes as they pass over La Jolla. The navigation system would include LAAS (Differential GPS).

have they considered a perimiter rule for Lindbergh and a high speed train direct to LAX? That seems the most environemntally friendly...

Yes, but due to the way the trains have to run, there's no speed benefit over Amtrak. Maglev is a consideration, but one that is far off.

Quite simply, it will be an airport at Miramar or slot allocation by 2020. There's no way around it.

[Edited 2005-01-08 22:39:02]
 
Trvlr
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:37 am

There are NIMBYs near NKX too, but (1) they should be used to the noise from the existing military aircraft by now, and (2) they should actually hear -less- noise from airline aircraft given that everything is now Stage-3.

Exactly. And make that Stage IV by the time a new airport would become operational. But remember, these are NIMBYs. Of the little intelligence they have, most of if is reserved for making a fuss and stymieing any development, no matter what it is. There isn't much left for a rational analysis of situation. It will take a monstrous effort in 2006 to convince people in La Jolla/Del Mar that NKX isn't the end of civilization.

Well, sort of. A new airport would include brand new runways to ensure simultanious CAT-III ILS capability. The runways would also shift east a couple of thousand feet to increase the aircraft altitudes as they pass over La Jolla. The navigation system would include LAAS (Differential GPS).

If I read the Airport Authority site correctly, I believe one of the existing runways at NKX would be retained, and a second one built parallel, somewhere near Miramar Road. Moving them a few thousand feet east would be a very good idea. If that complicates landings, however, a displaced threshold (like that at SAN) could be the solution.

Bicoastal: As much as you'd like San Diego to return to the sleepy Navy town paradise you knew a few decades ago, I'm afraid that's not going to happen, either. Lindbergh is not at capacity now, but it will face major problems in the future. See Boeing7E7's comments. There's space for gates, sure, but that single runway remains. Close it down for a few hours now and it's inconvenient. Close it down in 2020 and it's going to be chaos. Granted, there is certainly a bit of room to expand, but that expansion is limited and does not come without its own problems.

Those wanting a new airport want nonstop flights to the world. Sorry, get over it. You'll have to live with one stop connections to get to Asia, Europe, etc.
More international flights will happen. Use the search function and you'll find a number of threads with an extensive discussion of this topic. Everyone knows that San Diego isn't going to be a hub--you're not going to see a bunch of new intercontinental flights start tomorrow. But there will be a select few in the next decade or so. Just take a look at the growth of air service to SAN in the past dozen years. These things take time.

As much as I myself am skeptical of a new airport in San Diego, that does not by any means signify that Lindbergh is the best option. That is a delusion as much as the idea of building an airport out in Borrego is. Boeing7E7 said it best--it's either going to be Miramar, or we're screwed.

Aaron G.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacem

Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:46 am

Thanks AAR90 for your detailed info...

>>>Moving them a few thousand feet east would be a very good idea. If that complicates landings, however, a displaced threshold (like that at SAN) could be the solution.

A displaced threshold wouldn't solve anything, since the issue is centerline separation of the two runways. You need 2500 feet between them for parallel ILSes and 4300 feet for simultaneous ILSes. All a displaced threshold would do is shorten the runway length, and not move them further apart from one another...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
LMP737
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 8:04 am

AAR90:

Interesting that the E-2's were slated to go too Lemoore then North Island and in the end up going to Point Magu.

Amazing the politicos in San Diego managed to screw up such a golden opportunity to get a new airport. Having lived in San Diego and then Orange County I know opportunities for a new airport don't come along very often.
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san747
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 8:48 am

Let's hope the voters choose Miramar... It's, as Trvlr said, pretty much the only choice. Although it really boggles my mind why the politicians let a golden oppurtunity pass by... I just hope the new airport is built at NKX and this whole issue over a new airport can be put away... Then we can argue over future int'l services into the new airport  Smile!
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AAR90
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:22 am

Thanks AAR90 for your detailed info...

You are most welcome kind sir [I never remember to thank you for your excellent WN info either... so thanks].  Big thumbs up

Moving them a few thousand feet east would be a very good idea. If that complicates landings, however, a displaced threshold (like that at SAN) could be the solution.

A displaced threshold wouldn't solve anything, since the issue is centerline separation of the two runways. You need 2500 feet between them for parallel ILSes and 4300 feet for simultaneous ILSes. All a displaced threshold would do is shorten the runway length, and not move them further apart from one another...


The general idea for turning KNKX into a civil airport is to add a parallel runway north of the "mainside" buildings area rather close to Miramar Road. That would provide the lateral separation required for parallel approaches [simultaineous approaches not expected to be that big of an issue]. Obviously the hangers, ramps and housing would all have to go and that would require USMC to give up KNKX entirely... something they have strongly stated they are against [most likely move would have them in Yuma or 29 Palms  Pissed ].

Shifting runways to the east makes no economic sense [and has for the most part been deleted from serious design considerations] as there are three major problems you encounter as you go east: [1] Kearny Villa Road --a 4-lane divided highway, [2] Interstate-15 --a 14+ lane freeway and second busiest freeway in the county and [3] East Miramar --designated wildlife openspace that is most definitely not level land (and you quickly get closer to the "high terrain"). Environmentalist will protect #3 at all costs (probably successfully as their environment "success" was the primary reason last year's Cedar Fire grew into the largest wildfire in CA history [jumped I-15 in less than 15 seconds]. County and local governments will fight any I-15 changes (too much $$$ spent building it up and too much $$$ going into improvements today). Kearny Villa Road can be closed, but it would require a major redesign to get traffic to SoCal Tracon and it is a heavily used reliever for I-15 rush hour.

Interesting that the E-2's were slated to go too Lemoore then North Island and in the end up going to Point Magu.

The whole BRAC decision process was flawed from the get-go. Politics and NIMBY's w/political clout drove more of the decisionmaking than economics or efficiencies. Moving USMC F/A-18s to Lemoore would have made much more sense (and the marines wanted to be nearer the Hornet's home anyway). USN decisionmakers finally (I don't recall exactly when) figured out the F-14s were on their way out and consolidating to a single air base (ala A-6's @ Whidbey) was the best option. Besides, they can x-ctry easier than any other USN tacair platform save those A-6's.  Wink/being sarcastic Hawkeyes were already moving into the hangers at "NorIs" [North Island for those that don't speak local lingo] when the NIMBY's became very vocal. Heaven forbid Naval Air Station North Island would actually fly airplanes on a daily basis (there is a 2x over threashold restriction in place). Coronado has the strongest, loudest and most well connected NIMBY's in the state (possibly the country) and when they started the s%$t hit the fan quickly. The move to Mugu happened rather quickly, but it does help USN argue Mugu is an "active" air station rather than just a test center for PMTC.

Amazing the politicos in San Diego managed to screw up such a golden opportunity to get a new airport.

Ah heck, haven't you been watching the news. The airport is "no-big-deal" compared to holding an election in direct violation to the City Charter, running a "shell-game" with city funds [federal investigation ongoing], City Councilmembers indicted for fraud, bribery, etc., etc., etc. The 30+ year old airport issue is a "who cares because KNKX is the only option" issue that just repeats itself every couple of years when they spend another $100k or so on another "study." Lindbergh is here to stay. USMC won't give up KNKX (even to a joint-ops study) and there are no other viable alternatives. With a little work KSAN could become an outstanding regional (North American) airport, but I'm not hopeful... consider how screwed up they did the redesigned roadwork (multi-million $$$ project and not one minute less time to/from the airport).



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OPNLguy
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacem

Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:37 am

AAR90,

Thank you as well..  Big grin

Due to the complexity of the local issues (which I obviously was not that well aware of), I have another alternative that could maybe be considered...

If rumors that the U.S.S. Kennedy is to be retired are true, maybe they could take it, and another one, and weld them together end-to-end, and anchor the whole thing offshore...  Big grin

Come to think of it, the whales would sue.. (and WIN!)..  Big grin
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
AAR90
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:53 am

If rumors that the U.S.S. Kennedy is to be retired are true, maybe they could take it, and another one, and weld them together end-to-end, and anchor the whole thing offshore...

I know of two floating airport projects that have been seriously considered (don't know how many never got that far). The latest was about a decade ago and was abandoned as too expensive (minimum $2 Billion and that was a gov't estimate so you know it would end up 4-5 times higher) and technologically risky (open ocean, not a protected bay).

NIMBY's argument was "nobody wants to look west for the sunset only to see an airport and airplanes...."  Wink/being sarcastic

Rumors of JFK's "retirement" are true. Exactly when hasn't been published, but it is in next year's USN budget request. I only spent 5 weeks on her in 1978 (1st class midshipman), but she was a fine ship back then.  Big thumbs up
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PanAm747
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:59 am

My dream for all of southern California: all of the airports (SAN 1 & 2, CLD, SNA, LGB, BUR, and ONT) are connected by high speed rail. Traffic was easily spread among the different airports AND reduced traffic on the area's freeways, ESPECIALLY around LAX.

Mass transit would visit all the airports in a fashion that the Japanese or the Swiss would envy - like the way Amtrak and NJ Transit trains and busses have a user-friendly station at EWR.

Now, as for that SAN 1 & 2, I would love to see Miramar East established as a state-of-the-art modern international & cargo facility that wouldn't close down when fog rolls in. The trolley, Coaster, and Amtrak (as well as various high speed and local busses) would serve the airport, reducing the need for cars in that area of the city (prone to clogged traffic). Call that one SAN 1 (my designation), and keep Lindbergh Field (SAN 2) for local traffic (slot restricted limited jet service only) to reduce noise over OB.

Don't remind of what a pipe dream all of that is...let me keep the fantasy!!  Innocent
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Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:41 am

If I read the Airport Authority site correctly, I believe one of the existing runways at NKX would be retained, and a second one built parallel, somewhere near Miramar Road. Moving them a few thousand feet east would be a very good idea. If that complicates landings, however, a displaced threshold (like that at SAN) could be the solution.

It's just the overlay area to show the "minimum" size of the new facility. I wrote a good portion of the Miramar Document you can download. There is sufficient terrain clearance at the Miramar site to shift east and even rotate them to another east/west configuration between 0 and 4 degrees if warranted on that site (You can even build an entire airport East of Miramar with some cut and fill - This is the East Miramar Site). Wind will be monitored for a 3 year period before runway construction would begin to ensure proper placement. No displaced threshold required. Target runway size is 12,000 x 250. The current runway is, well, crappy. The military hasn't taken very good care of it. It also needs an improved lighting system, so the notion is, dig it up and do it right.

Whoever said "Stage IV" above is absolutley right. This is a 2017-2025 open date airport for crying out loud. Also, the NIMBY's claim loss of property value, which is a load of crap. Every study ever done has proven the opposite to be correct.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacem

Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:55 am

Whoever said "Stage IV" above is absolutley right. This is a 2017-2025 open date airport for crying out loud.

2017-2025!!  Wow!

Given that timespan, the loudest airplane you must deal with is a 737NG!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:27 am

Yup...

It goes to vote in 2006. They estimate 3 years (2009) to close Miramar, if it closes. 2-4 years of cleanup (2011) (all the while God knows how many lawsuits). 5-7 to build (2016-2017). That's the best possible scenario. Look how long it took Denver.

No move, slot allocation like DCA and LGA. Many delays, lack of sufficient gate space and air fares that will make SWA look like a legacy carrier in terms of price.
 
johnboy
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:44 am

A site in Imperial County is under consideration?

What? Was Mars crossed off the list or something?
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:14 am

All the sites will remain until next summer when the BRAC comes out, and decisions will be made from there. That was the last info I had from before the holidays. The site mentioned in this thread was never added to begin with, they only voted "not" to add it to the list of potential sites.
 
LMP737
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:05 am

AAR90:

Rules violations, federal investigations, city officials indicted, San Diego sounds like the west coast version of Chicago Big grin. Seriously though it's kind of sad that San Diego is in such desperate need of a new airport and yet the city govt screws it up.

Can't say that I'm surprised that the NIMBY's in Coronado made a stink about the E-2's. As someone who spent four years around navy aircraft I don't see why they were so riled up. The E-2's are not that noisy when compared to their carrier based cousins. Guess you don't need me telling you that  Smile. Kind of reminds me of the uproar in Orange County over El Toro. Even though the county board wanted it to become an airport I knew it would never happen. All those people in Coto De Caza, Irvine, Mission Viejo etc would spare no $$$expense$$$ to prevent it from happening. And guess what, they were successful.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:20 am

The City of San Diego has nothing to do with the airport site selection. There is a special district which is responsible to the entire county that is handling this.
 
jeb94
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:20 am

I can tell you right now it won't be Camp Pendleton. That is only the most important west coast Marine base and the largest in the Corp as far as number of commands and personel (2nd largest in land mass to 29 Palms but 29 Palms is mostly impact area for bombing/artillery ranges. It won't be closing anytime soon. Besides, its very rugged, hilly country. If you're referring to MCAS Camp Pendleton, located deep within MCB Camp Pendleton, You'll find there isn't room to expand it and you'd be limited to regional jets and helicopters for the most part. I remember watching a C-9B (DC9-30) loaded with band gear and the majority of the 1st Marine Division band departing on a trip (I couldn't go as I was injured at the time). The aircraft cleared the ridgeline at the end of the runway by maybe 100 feet, if that. There aren't many commercial airports with that kind of obstacle at the departure end of the runway that operate larger aircraft. As for Miramar, I know the city wants it but don't expect the USMC to give it up without a fight. They now have the majority of the 3rd MAW (Marine Aircraft Wing) located there and won't be keen on moving it much further away from the rest of I MEF (Marine Expeditionary Force). As for swapping it for Lindbergh, how do you think the residents of all of those homes on the hills around Lindbergh would like to listen to a number of CH-53Es coming in at dawn? How about a flight of C-130s rumbling off at midnight? Or F/A-18s blasting off on full afterburner at 4 AM? For the most part, the fog wouldn't matter to the Marine Corps, especially to the F/A-18s.
 
DHLSAN
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:30 am

Miramar is the only option that would work. All the other choices are too far away, I'd rather drive to SNA than March. The noise issue is stupid because RJ's, 737's, MD80's, and 757 are a heck of a lot quieter than an F/A18. My route is next to Miramar and the Hornets are deafening. We would have 2 runways lots of room, a better approach than rooftops and a parking structure, and access from 2 freeways with exits leading right into the airport.
Yellow?
 
jeb94
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:44 pm

The only question is, will the USMC give it up? Don't count on brac closing it down. Its a very, very important base due to previous reductions. Also, the world has changed a lot and the need for bases has risen since the last round of closings.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:17 pm

The only question is, will the USMC give it up? Don't count on brac closing it down. Its a very, very important base due to previous reductions. Also, the world has changed a lot and the need for bases has risen since the last round of closings.

It's not an important base at all. Pendleton and North Island are. Don't be surprised if March re-opens in 2010 either. The Marines don't make the decision either, the BRAC panel does.

[Edited 2005-01-13 07:19:54]
 
jeb94
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:21 pm

It is an important base for the air wing. MCAS Pendleton isn't big enough and the nimbys of Coronado will certainly not allow them to operate fighters there.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:07 pm

The purpose of Miramar is not fighters, it's Helo's and Tilt-Rotors. Fighters operate at North Island every day as it is, so it's nothing new. It is not an important base to anyone but a local politician/village idiot opposed to the new airport.

[Edited 2005-01-13 08:08:58]
 
Trvlr
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:32 pm

Couldn't the Marines just move everything out to Twentynine Palms? I'd think they'd have a lot less operations restrictions in a less populated area. Is NAS Tustin still open?

Aaron G.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:40 pm

If they are financially smart, rather than politically stupid they would re-open March for the Marines which would be an excellent location for any type of operation, located directly between Pendleton and Twenty-nine Palms.

But that would make sense.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:49 pm

Trvlr:
No MCAS Tustin was closed shortly before El toro was closed.

In response to the previous mention of using NKX as a joint military and civil base. The main differance between ABQ/IKR, CHS and NKX is that the previous two are transport operations, where NKX is a master jet base, hosting mostly tactical units of F/A-18s, H53s, and V22s, amongst a few others. Now don't get me worng, I would love to see hornets mixed in with boeings and airbusses, but the DoN won't go for it.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:57 pm

The only valid Joint Use application would be the Reserve Units at March and the National Guard Unit at Channel Islands moving the respective Air Mobility Wings down to Miramar to make room for the Marines at March and facilitate the inevitable closure of Pt. Mugu. Talk about a MAC terminal! C-5's, C-130's, C-17s and an alert fighter wing.

Must...remind...myself....that this would actually make sense.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Trvlr
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:07 pm

Boeing7E7: Ah, but remember it is a natural law that nothing makes sense in this process Big grin.

On a more serious note, did you say a few posts up that you actually worked for the Airport Authority in writing up these site analyses? I ask not only because this issue greatly interests me, but also because soon I'll probably be snooping around for internships and would appreciate some expertise Big grin.

Aaron G.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:21 pm

Yes, I used to work there. I was then hired as a consultant to work on the initial site identification. I'm sitting back waiting for the BRAC list right now. Nothing else will happen there until then. When it comes out, there's about 3-5 more months of work then public presentations followed by the vote in November of '06. Oddly, if Miramar gets closed, the biggest hurdle could be the Chargers new stadium and a library on the same ballot. People will think the airport is funded by tax money, which it isn't. It's tough to sell that much stuff on a single ballot. What also ties your hands is that the Airport Authority cannot actively advertise the project on their own. Someone has to carry the torch for them. FAA rules on airport revenue diversion prevent it. So, all they can do is hold "town hall" meetings.

Last word I had is that Miramar is toast (as in gone as a military installation), but BRAC is political more than functional. What looks good today, is crap tomorrow. Lot's of lobbyists in DC in overdrive right now. One thing that will help is that Mineta took El Toro off the list as ever being a commercial airport over the holidays. If that's the case, it's good for San Diego. An El Toro airport, which LAX was proposing taking over and paying for would have been bad for San Diego's efforts.
 
Trvlr
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:31 pm

Thanks for the analysis. There are so many variables it's really impossible to tell where this is all going to go next.

Those "town hall" meetings can get pretty heated, at least in my experience. A few too many uninformed people blowing off steam...I really do feel sorry for Thella Bowens et al.

Aaron G.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:39 pm

Yup. I'm glad I left when I did. What a freakin' headache it must be for the full timers. We just get info, sort it and send it back. They have to put up with all the BS, day in and day out. I always get the "Letter to the Editor" clips on this. Some people write some pretty stupid things in the paper. I'm sure at some point some psycho will bring in a bunch of school children to cry in front of the board as they did with Brown Field. Don't think it will work this time though. They're on a mission. If the BRAC shuts down Miramar, it will be an airport this time. That's my assessment anyway. It's the last piece of flat land that isn't an environmental nightmare.
 
jsnww81
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:47 am

Hey Aaron -

Aren't you from the La Jolla/Torrey Pines area originally? Is there formal organized opposition to Miramar in that area already? How quickly do you think they could mobilize if the focus shifted to NKX? Money talks in the US, and everyone living out on that bluff seems to have a decent amount of it. It'd be a real shame if a site as perfect as Miramar was passed over.

The whole San Diego airport debacle gives me a headache. They could take a lesson from Texas, where we've built three huge new airports (IAH, DFW and AUS Bergstrom) in the last 35 years - all with fairly limited opposition.  Smile
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:52 am

La Jolla should welcome the airport. It's quiet jets or noisy Helo's and V-22's crashing in their backyards. I'd pass on the later.

They could take a lesson from Texas, where we've built three huge new airports (IAH, DFW and AUS Bergstrom) in the last 35 years - all with fairly limited opposition.

Sure is easy when nearly you're entire state is flatter than a pancake.
 
AAR90
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:51 am

Fighters operate at North Island every day as it is, so it's nothing new.
No, they do not operate continuously there. You get twice over the runway threshold IF you enter the overhead (once in the break and once on landing). Otherwise it is ONCE over the threshold. IOW, full stop landings only. Not good for CV pilots.

It is not an important base to anyone but a local politician/village idiot opposed to the new airport.
It is VERY IMPORTANT base. That doesn't mean the entire operations can't be moved elsewhere, but NAS) / Mitscher Field (NKX / KNKX), USA - California">NKX is not an unimportant base by any definition.

Couldn't the Marines just move everything out to Twentynine Palms? I'd think they'd have a lot less operations restrictions in a less populated area.
Yes, but there is very limited support capability established. It would extremely expensive to build it into a master jet base ala NAS) / Mitscher Field (NKX / KNKX), USA - California">NKX is already.

Is NAS Tustin still open?
No, closed when El Toro closed and most of the assets were consolidated at NAS) / Mitscher Field (NKX / KNKX), USA - California">NKX.

If they are financially smart, rather than politically stupid they would re-open March for the Marines which would be an excellent location for any type of operation, located directly between Pendleton and Twenty-nine Palms.
That is exactly what USN/USMC wanted, but politics dictated something else.

If the BRAC shuts down Miramar, it will be an airport this time. That's my assessment anyway. It's the last piece of flat land that isn't an environmental nightmare.
Wish I had your optimisim, but after living with the past 30 years of local political ineptitude...  Crying

Is there formal organized opposition to Miramar in that area already? How quickly do you think they could mobilize if the focus shifted to NAS) / Mitscher Field (NKX / KNKX), USA - California">NKX?
No, but it will only take them a couple of weeks...at least that's they way they've operated the last three times someone wanted to raise a stink about NAS) / Mitscher Field (NKX / KNKX), USA - California">NKX.

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:55 pm

No, they do not operate continuously there.

It's a carrier support facility. There have always been, and will always be regular fighter ops there.

It is VERY IMPORTANT base.

If it was, then it wouldn't have been slated to close in the last BRAC. It got revitalized. Were you aware they are so efficient at Miramar that they only work M-F???? Must be a nice duty station. That V-22, which is targeted for Miramar is really coming along these days too. Real important.
 
AAR90
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RE: One Site Eliminated In Search For SAN Replacement

Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:16 am

No, they do not operate continuously there.

It's a carrier support facility. There have always been, and will always be regular fighter ops there.


One wonders how much CV flight ops experience you actually have. North Island hasn't had "regular fighter ops" in DECADES! Full-stop landings only are permitted. No practice landings of any kind. Severely restricted flight hours. The only squadrons based there are helos and a single COD squadron. If you are an out-of-town squadron expecting to do significant amount of flying while in San Diego, you'll be hosted at Miramar, not North Island.

If it was, then it wouldn't have been slated to close in the last BRAC.

Contradicting yourself? ...but BRAC is political more than functional.

Military importance is not a political issue. Miramar is very important to the Marines. If the political decision (BRAC) is to close Miramar, then the Marines will "make do" with something else.... just like the Navy did when NAS Miramar was closed (NAS Miramar was very important to USN back then as well).

Were you aware they are so efficient at Miramar that they only work M-F????

Nope. Must be because of all the Marine helos and F/A-18s that fly over my house EVERYDAY, 7-days a week! And I guess my business regularly sending technicians to Miramar on Saturdays and Sundays doesn't really happen either?! Someone's feeding you a line of B.S. if you actually believe Miramar only works M-F. Those of us who actually live here know otherwise.

That V-22, which is targeted for Miramar is really coming along these days too. Real important.

Where an airplane is assigned has little affect on an air base's military importance. Miramar is important to the Marines because so much of their west-coast air assets are based there. The V-22 being "targeted" for Miramar is for the same reason. If Miramar is closed, the Marines will move the assets elsewhere and those location will become more important than it is today. If not, Miramar will remain very important to the Marines. If the V-22 is cancelled, it will have little affect on Miramar's importance within the Marine Corps.

Ultimately the final decision isn't going to be a military one. Which is as it should be for a military that desires, supports and promotes the concept of civilians being in charge of their government.  Big thumbs up

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!