flyingnanook
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Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:37 am

I am currently reading Turbulent Skies, which is an excellent book about the history of commercial aviation. It has this picture of an L1011 in it.



I know that 747's can ferry an extra engine, but I never heard of an L1011 doing so. Since this one is in Lockheed house colors, was this capability just being tested? Or did all production L1011's have this capability? If so, are there any other pictures of them ferrying engines?

Thanks all, and apologies for the quality of the scan.
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Spacepope
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:04 am

Evidently, Gulf Air used this feature at least once:


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Photo © Christos Psarras

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RyanL1011
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:30 am

I've never heard of an aircraft carrying an extra engine, what purpose does that serve?
 
RayPettit
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:39 am

Just as cargo to a far off support centre, should one member of the fleet need a new engine in another region.

TWA used to base a C-82 Packet in Paris to haul spare engines and the like around Europe.
 
air2gxs
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:41 am

Back in the days before airfriegt was as common as it is today, an airline had to be able to move a large engine (JT9, CF6, RB211) very quickly if they had a problem in an area where there was no engine available.

The manufacturers decided to add an option to their airframes which would enable an engine to be carried as exterior payload. This engine was non functioning and could be carried on revenue flight. So, your recovery aircraft could also carry your engine. We had one ready to go at PanAm over in one of the hangars at JFK. It only took an experienced crew between 2 and 3 hours to install. I believe the option was available on B747, L1011 & DC10.

Now, with all this heavy lift (B747, MD11, DC10) cpability in frieghters readily available, the practice has fallen out of use. Though I wonder if a Trent or GE90 could be carried on the deck of a B747 or such.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:43 am

I'm sure they where just doing Aerodynamic Loads Testing. This was in the days before computers, so on paper they could get a good idea of what it would behave like, but the only way to really know was strap on an engine and go fly.
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B4REAL
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:53 am

Still available with the 747-400 series. Here is an SAA a/c ferrying an engine:


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Photo © Don Boyd


B4REAL
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Vez
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:30 am

Here are one more :

a 743 :


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Photo © Anthony Jackson



a 742

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Photo © Paul Morley



and even another tristar!


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Photo © Gerard A Mark

 
Spacepope
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:20 pm

DC-8 and DC-10 also were able to carry extra engine pods. Not sure about the 707 however.
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DL_Mech
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:10 pm

Not all L-1011's had the ability to carry a fourth engine. At DL, only the ex-PA planes had the capability. BA also had this option.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
tepidhalibut
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:11 pm

On the "head-on" shots, you might notice that the extra engine has no fan-blades fitted. There's also a do-nut shaped blank to stop air flowing into the core of the engine.

This was to stop the core engine shafts windmilling (which could have resulted in some oil system problems.)
 
SNATH
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:27 am

Not sure about the 707 however.

I'm 99.9% sure that the B707 can also do that too. I remember my dad, who worked for an
airline for many years, telling me that once a B707 arrived carrying an extra engine.

Tony
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rams777
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:53 am

This is to "SNATH" I found a Middle East Ailrines (MEA) 707 ferrying an extra engine to Beirut. Photo taken in Heathrow


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Photo © John Kelly

 
Venus6971
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:54 am

Not sure about the 707 however.

I am 100% sure the 707 had the extra engine mount capability, had to periodically NDI the extra mounts just to check for corrosion.
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blkav8tor2003
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:27 am

Hey FlyingNanook,

Blkav8tor2003 here and this is my first post. I also have a pic for you. Here at KPHX Skyharbor Int'l Honeywell has a private flying testbed of the B720-051B variant and it carries an extra engine pod that works on a/c right side just aft of the cockpit. I will include a link from a photo airliners.net sorry I don't know how to post a pic so you can see it right away but give me time. Good question, I'll keep on reading and start posting more. "Keep the Blue Side Up!"

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/651277/L/
"Straighten Up And Fly Right!"....Tuskegee Airman 99th Fighter Squadron
 
fanofjets
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:37 am

In one of my old 707 books, I have a picture of a Qantas 707-138 ferrying an extra engine. I believe this is a picture of Boeing's testing of this feature; the idea of ferrying an extra jet engine goes back at least to the early 1960s.

What I find unusual in the picture of the Lockheed L-1011 prototype is that the aircraft is carrying the spare engine on the starboard side; every other picture I have seen shows the spare engine on the port side.

Anyhow, here's a few more pictures:

747 Classics-

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Photo © Michael Hojbjerg
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Photo © Mick West



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Photo © Paul Spijkers



And here's "Ontos," TWA's Fairchild C-82 Packet:

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Photo © Ted Quackenbush
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Photo © Andy Martin - AirTeamImages



The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:50 am

Here is an A330 carrying two spare engines...


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Photo © Colin Hunter



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dogfighter2111
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:51 am

Has anyone noticed, but the Boeing aircraft carry the engine on the left, lockheed carry it on the right and the Fairchild carrys it on the top.

Dog
 
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rg828
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:27 am

Saw this while browsing:


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Photo © Eduard Marmet



Even VC-10s were able to carry a 5th pod.
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
IslipWN
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:06 am

Why can't the engine just go in the cargo hold?

How long does it take to put one on a plane?

Has anyone ever been on a plane with a spare?

Could any planes ever have one on each wing?
 
stirling
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:08 am

Dog, I am not sure if you were serious or not, so for the sake of the people not getting the joke, or too young to know any better, the engine on top of the C-82 Packet was not the spare engine being transported. But you all knew that. Right?
That engine was there to aid in take-off performance.
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COAMiG29
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:10 am

WOuld a plane with an extra engine be a non rev flight due to the extra weight and drag?
If Continental had a hub at DFW with nonstop flights I would always fly them, unfortunantely good things take time.
 
da man
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:14 am

There would be a range penalty and you most likely couldn't put as many pax on the plane as without the extra engine, but the aircraft could still be used for a revenue flight if the load factor for the flight is right.

da man
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pl4nekr4zy
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:24 am

Lol, nice one, Birdwatching. Big thumbs up
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dl021
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:39 am

I believe that the regs require that engine ferry flights be non-revenue flights.

They are not often used anymore, but will be done in a pinch.
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eclipseflight7
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:53 am

Is it possible to get a permit for an aircraft to fly with one engine out? Aircraft are built so that they can have an engine failure at V1 but still have the ability to climb and engines are able to be flown without being on. I assume the issue would be a prolonged takeoff run and partial loss of breaking, along with the thrust causing turning issues. However, these obsticles can be overcome. So could it happen?
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dogfighter2111
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:54 am

Stirling, i was joking. I should have said beside it.
Dog
 
hiflyer
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RE: Question About Strange L1011 Picture

Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:13 pm

At PanAm it was called a 5th pod...revenue flights with pax...yes range was impacted due drag but more due to the extra weight. Could go east coast Europe or West Coast Hawaii without a problem.

Why carry a 5th on a widebody? Time. An engine carried that way get's into the destination faster and far more intact than one broken down to be able to go lower deck cargo. If you are shipping an engine for overhaul or for spare...time is ok...but if the bird is sitting then time is essential.

Of course, nowadays there are a lot more freighters...especially widebody...out there....UA even hired a commercial C130 to move one into Latin America for a big foot.