scotron11
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Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:33 am

FT reports that Airbus has applied to 4 EU governments for $1Billion in launch aid for the A350. Development costs are projected at $4Billion.

Separately, EADS plans to establish a plant in the US to produce in-flight refueling tankers for the USAF should it win a tender competition against Boeing.

Airbus would supply so called "green aircraft", completely unequipped A330-200s assembled in Toulouse, and fitted in the US.

Gotta admit, this company has a brass neck!
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:35 am

Can Airbus actually afford to build a new plane without any funds. Airbus always asking for funds is starting to become a joke.
 
kellmark
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:46 am

As I recall, Airbus today said that they had a very good year and projected a profit margin of some 10%.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh64920_2005-01-12_11-14-23_pac003835_newsml

Why in the world do they need any subsidy whatsoever? It is absolutely ridiculous.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:05 am

What happened to $5.8 billion figure previously bandied about? $4 billion translates to approximately 3 billion euro which seems more reasonable for a derivative.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:34 am

The development costs for the A350 may be 5 billion etc but they are only allowed to get a third under the 92 agreement. They have also said that if push came to shove they don't need it but if they can get it, they would be fools not to ask for it.
This could be real interesting if they only ask for a billion from the EU govts and the Japanese give more than a billion to FHI, MHI and Kawasaki for the 7E7!
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:37 am

Amazing...positively amazing. Doesn't surprise me at all though, this is the Airbus tradition. With that 10% profit margin, shouldn't they be giving some back to the governments? Take away all those subsidies....airbus would be in the hole every single time.

I still don't feel comfortable with the idea of a KC-330....it may be partially assembled here in the US, but Airbus is only doing that to make the product semi-american....you can paint a FROG any way you like it, but it's still a frog.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:37 am

Wingman: LMAO!

Come on guys, we all saw it coming...Airbus gets more free money while they complain that Boeing is taking advantage of opportunities in Japan...tune in next week for another exciting episode of As The World Turns...
 
Matt D
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:42 am

Trust me. There will NEVER be a KC-330. Any politician who signs the contract would also be comitting political suicide.

It's not that I don't think that Airbus could offer a viable alternative, it's just that politics tends to get in the way of making rational decisions. Boeing, Northrop, Lockheed, et.al. have their hands pretty deep in the pockets of the USAF and would NEVER let this happen.

Then throw in a crop of flag wavers and nationalists....

like I said....ain't happenin'
 
kalakaua
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:04 am

Wasn't the A380 overbudget?
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:38 am

Separately, EADS plans to establish a plant in the US to produce in-flight refueling tankers for the USAF should it win a tender competition against Boeing.

They have a better chance of concurrently winning every single USA lottery using the same numbers on the same day...

...but gotta give it to 'em for trying  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:08 pm

Wasn't the A380 overbudget?

Admittedly yes, but then again, so was the 777...

Can Airbus actually afford to build a new plane without any funds. Airbus always asking for funds is starting to become a joke.

Boeing could theoretically apply for the exact same aid; albeit the US government would laugh at them. The State of Washington tried to make some amends by lightening the tax burden, but these are a far cry from low/no interest loans. The default level of taxation is 0%, but the local, state, and federal government can tack-on what they want to suit their needs. If Boeing is about to leave town, the local and state levels can change the taxes they put in place to further their mutual interest.

Loosening the leash is not the same thing as throwing one a bone....

Separately, EADS plans to establish a plant in the US to produce in-flight refueling tankers for the USAF should it win a tender competition against Boeing.

Yippie... a line with zero future past 2010. This is about as exciting as moving the 767 line to the UK to win the RAF order. Reasonable? Uhh NO! Let's review the facts:

- A300 is probably months away from termination either in 2005 or 2006.
- We know the A350 will superceed the passenger A330
- Only the A332 has suitable freighter and military application. The A333 will probably die a tragic death.

Therefore, a North American production line for A330 will be about as spectacular as the current A300/767 line: rolling out at a low rate for tanker and freighter conversion. Replicating the whole A332 line is not an inexpensive proposition, and could only be viable if the USAF order was won in full.

This all sounds like Airbus trying to play Toyota: maybe if we build them there, they will like us. The production level just seems too low to be profitable, so its either a screw Boeing for market share or just a move to screw Boeing into lowering their 767 deal.

[Edited 2005-01-13 04:21:37]
 
Trvlr
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:30 pm

I am 100% for the KC-330 if and only if it is fully assembled here in the United States. Which, if Airbus partners with a US company such as Lockheed, is feasible IMHO. What better way to bring manufacturing jobs back to the United States?

As for A350 launch subsidies--Airbus should get over it. They're already in the same position they claim Boeing enjoys: they too are "indirectly funded" through military contracts (remember European Aeronautics, Defense and Space Company?).

Aaron G.
 
greasespot
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:38 pm

I may be wrong but isn't there a treaty coveing this. Cannot Boeing ask for the same subsidy? Just because the gov't does not give it to them it is not Airbus's fault.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:42 pm

I may be wrong but isn't there a treaty coveing this.

It's currently in intense limbo, I suggest a Google News search for Airbus or Boeing... it will be a top hit.

Cannot Boeing ask for the same subsidy? Just because the gov't does not give it to them it is not Airbus's fault.

They could... see Reply 11, they would be laughed of Capitol Hill. Boeing's contention is that Airbus has no right to this sort of financing, reasoning that much has changed in the 12 years since the bilateral treaty was signed and reratified. Airbus has some points of their own, namely Japanese involvement in the 7E7, which currently bypasses the bilateral agreement that does not mention Japan....
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:46 pm

>shouldn't they be giving some back to the governments

well, on the A320 program they have paid everything back to the UK treasury they owed the Brit taxpayer (principal and interest) along with an additional US$1billion in royalties which some bright spark in Whitehall had written into their agreement! Plus HM govt keeps getting royalties for every new A320 which rolls of the production line.It is likely all other Euro govts which paid into the A320 program have also been paid back in similar fashion though I don't think any of the others were smart enough to tag on the royalty agreement also.
Don't know where they are on the A330/340 payback yet, maybe a little too early for that one yet

>am 100% for the KC-330 if and only if it is fully assembled here in the United States

Guardian reports that Airbus wants to invest US$600 million to set up a A332 tanker production line in US with probably Lockheed as partner. A USAF version of a 332 tanker may have more US content than a 7E7 at the end of the day!

[Edited 2005-01-13 04:47:56]
 
greasespot
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:50 pm

But if it is avaliable to both...Is it really not for Boeing to take up with the gov't? It is not Airbus's fault that the US gov't will not offer the same. From what I can see they are following the treaty..It is up to the gov't to renegotiate the treaty...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:50 pm

A USAF version of a 332 tanker may have more US content than a 7E7 at the end of the day!

I hadn't seen too many proposals for a 7E7 tanker, and though it has nothing to do with American content, this point is wholly irrelevant.
 
Trvlr
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:51 pm

Guardian reports that Airbus wants to invest US$600 million to set up a A332 tanker production line in US with probably Lockheed as partner. A USAF version of a 332 tanker may have more US content than a 7E7 at the end of the day!

Thanks for the tidbit--interesting news. At any rate, I think there's a big difference between a "green" aircraft and one that's fully built in the USA. My preference is, obviously, the latter.

Aaron G.
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:11 pm

> I hadn't seen too many proposals for a 7E7 tanker, and though it has nothing to do with American content, this point is wholly irrelevant.

If one is concerned about how "American" or "European" a A332 tanker for the USAF is in terms of how politically palatable such a deal will be to American politicians, then the 7E7 is an example of how unAmerican an "American" plane is! Even the 767 airframe is almost a fifth non US sourced.
Whether its total $$ or manhours, these days the "label" is becoming less important as to where the work is being done.
Leaving aside the national industrial infrastructure needs to preserve an "American " supplier for such a program, why would the US military care if its an American or non American company? They go to war today with German tank guns, British field artillery, Belgian medium machine guns and squad weapons and pistols, the navy has used an Italian medium caliber gun since the 70s and they have just chosen a Swedish one for the LCS! But they are all "manufactured" in the US. If the A332 is a better aircraft and Airbus can "build" it in the US, so be it!

[Edited 2005-01-13 05:14:50]
 
CX747
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:16 pm

Why don't we have an American company like Lockheed get off its A$$ and make an tanker to challenge Boeing? If you win, there is a 300+ plane order plus all the international deals/maitenance. Think of how much money Boeing has made off of the KC-135 program.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
PVG
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:16 pm

Wonder what the UDO's and LESKOVA's of the world have to say. Sure, Airbus is winning marketshare because they make a better product, they are great salesmen, creative financing deals, blah, blah, blah. They now admit that they saved a substantial amount on developments costs by getting government funding on the A380. Airbus is nothing but a huge European Government backed jobs program that will buy marketshare at all costs. I don't blame them, who wouldn't take free money if it's on the table. But, the facts are the facts.

The sad part is that the US Government doesn't realize the value of having well paying high value jobs on US soil and does laugh at requests for funding unless some crony on the inside can get their grubby hands on a piece of the pie and new high paying job for themselves and family on the outside (think tanker deal). No wonder the U.S. trade deficit is at record levels.
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:24 pm

>Why don't we have an American company like Lockheed get off its A$$ and make an tanker to challenge Boeing?

actually I believe it was AWST that had a report that Lockheed did have some people working on just that.
though economically it may make more sense to have them develop something from some off the shelf design than start from scratch.
the AF may want a lower risk project than a totally new airframe design esp with money so tight these days. they are already talking about only having a wing of F22s so they have enough money to save the F35. if they have to take a potential risk on the tanker project too and not buy an off the shelf airframe they'd better be pumping lots of Iraqi crude real soon!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:28 pm

If one is concerned about how "American" or "European" a A332 tanker for the USAF is in terms of how politically palatable such a deal will be to American politicians, then the 7E7 is an example of how unAmerican an "American" plane is!

Ha.. wrong. America is about capitalism, we fought a Cold War over it and if you haven’t noticed, one of the chief grievances facing the US today is fundamentalist Islam objecting to American capitalism. Why do you think planes were flown into the World Trade Center??

Capitalism takes the cheapest materials and labor available and refines it into a product that will make profit. If this means risk-sharing partnerships with Mitsubishi, that's capitalism. If this means out-sourcing to India, that's capitalism. If you understand what America is really about, and that's making money, there is nothing more American than what the 7E7 embodies.  Innocent

Second, the 7E7 is not even being considered by the USAF so its piddly assed American content matters ZERO in relation to the KC-767 bid.

Whether its total $$ or manhours, these days the "label" is becoming less important as to where the work is being done.

Yeah it's called globalization, welcome to 2005.

If the A332 is a better aircraft and Airbus can "build" it in the US, so be it!

1. That's a big "if"
2. If the A330-200 is the most value for taxpayer dollars, serves the needs of the USAF the best, and protects the interest of American troops... what the hell does the point of final assembly matter in the least??? Oh sorry America, we sent your sons and daughters into war with a sub par equipment because it didn't say "Made in USA"

Albeit I don't think the KC-767 is sub par, but if the USAF thinks so, you won't here a peep from me if they go with the A330 and build it in Toulouse.
 
KabAir
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:36 pm

I am by all means against government using taxpayer money to help a business succeed. And this whole thing with Airbus and the EU would tick me off, but....

While Boeing may not be getting a lot of government help, look what the U.S. government and U.S. financial policy has been doing for some of our bankrupt airlines. I should probably have the right to fly a couple of them for free as I would think enough of my tax money has gone to them to afford me a few tickets.  Smile We could talk U.S. farm subsidies for weeks. And don't even get me started on stadium taxes and subsidies for NFL teams, NBA teams, etc. It's amazing to me how our *cough* beloved Denver Nuggets could have a 10 year record of 11-2348 and still their billionaire owner will argue (successfully) that taxpayers need to build them a new arena. So I think this happens everywhere, it's just interesting to see how different governments favor different industries, for whatever reasons.

Anyone know which EU nations have contributed to Airbus projects? Just ones with stakes in Airbus, or have others jumped in also hoping to get a piece of the pie?
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:37 pm

>Albeit I don't think the KC-767 is sub par, but if the USAF thinks so, you won't here a peep from me if they go with the A330 and build it in Toulouse.

I'm with you totally on this one, but most of Congress aren't! Because when you really get down to it, they don't believe in true free market capitalism. Its "free market capitalism" as long as its in our(be it USA or state/regional/local) selfish interests and it comes with a big dose of jingoism!
 
JeffLAS
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:49 pm


1 Billion??? That's all??? I would have asked for "at least" 3 billion.  Nuts
" Jazz A-380, you have 2,100 feet from the intersection......Cleared for Take-off"
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:07 pm

What a freaking joke. Must not be making any money on those 320 family short sells.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:20 pm

Just a minute, won't A350 launch aid, as well as any 7E7 subsidies, be ILLEGAL under the terms sought in the tentative new U.S./E.U. agreement?

"The “subsidies standstill” will not apply to current aid programs to Airbus and Boeing, but will prevent European governments from committing subsidies to their new Airbus A350, a competitor to Boeing's planned 7E7 Dreamliner."

http://usinfo.state.gov/ei/Archive/2005/Jan/11-998601.html
 
baw716
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:22 pm

I really have trouble with this.

We wonder why Boeing complains so bitterly about Airbus undercutting Boeing on the costs of their aircraft? Airbus goes to the 4 principals governments that support Airbus and ask for $1B in development costs for the A350.

Boeing, on the other hand, is spending $1B+ of its OWN money to develop the 7E7, which obviously will have to be recovered somewhere in the pricing of the aircraft at some point. This clearly puts Boeing at a serious competitive disadvantage when it comes to pricing.

However, I think what we are seeing is a divergence is philosophy between Boeing and Airbus. Airbus focuses on building airplanes for the masses, highly automated, but from a technology standpoint, they are not really leaps forward in terms of what can be done to build an aircraft that is designed to be both comfortable and supereconomical. The A380 is a marvel to be sure, but its marvel is its size. While there may be new wing designs to improve the lift necessary to get that beast off the ground, it simply is a statement of who can build a bigger airplane and a philosophy that larger aircraft will be the way airlines will deal with airport congestion.

Boeing on the other hand is going completely out of the box. They are building an aircraft with a very large percentage of it being built with composites. Airplanes have been built with composites for some time, but never in a commercial airliner. The potential of this is huge: Significantly lighter weight, but just as much if not more strength than aluminum. With engines specifically designed for this aircraft, plus the new passenger comfort improvements planned, Boeing's idea is to have an aircraft carry 250 passengers up to 8000 miles. This provides a huge flexibility to an airline. No more does an airline need more than one aircraft type for medium haul to ultra long haul missions. One aircraft can do it all. The airplane will not be a bargain, however. It will be an investment.

Airbus has come out with its "A350", designed to compete head to head with the 7E7. However, the current designs resemble an A330 with much larger engines. In essence, it will be the same aircraft with a longer range. So what? It will be an aircraft that will compete with its own bretheren, since the A345 and A332 provide the seating ranges envisioned with the 7E7. So what will be new that will be attractive? Nothing. Airbus will build a cheaper airplane, and try to sell it as a less expensive alternative to the 7E7.
It is amazing how Airbus can sell an aircraft at such a low profit margin. Simple. It doesn't have to pay for its development costs.

So the competition of the future: Boeing, with a new paradigm in aircraft construction and composition and Airbus, building cheaper airplanes. Its important to understand that I do not criticize the quality of Airbus aircraft. Granted, there are rumors that carriers who have the A345/A346 are not as happy with their performance as they would like to be. Of course, Airbus has a really good sales division.

Boeing airplanes are not cheap. Yes, they are more money. However, at the end of the day, how long will they last in service, how much savings can be achieved for the carrier while providing maximum comfort for the passenger. In this sense, there is a real clear distinction between the two aircraft manufacturers.

Some may say that Airbus is outperforming Boeing. That may be true. However, Boeing will be back in the game, and when they come, they will come strong and will retake their position as the premier aircraft manufacturer in the world.
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
Trvlr
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:02 pm

Albeit I don't think the KC-767 is sub par, but if the USAF thinks so, you won't here a peep from me if they go with the A330 and build it in Toulouse.

Agreed. However, it is (unfortunately) impossible to know what the USAF thinks about the idea. It is clear that building a KC-330 in the United States would bring more jobs to and keep more tax dollars in the United States. Perhaps most importantly, though. I feel that a US-built KC-330 would have an immensely positive competitive effect on our nation's defense industry; perhaps even moreso than if it was built in Europe. Regardless of its cosiness with the government, the US defense industry remains the most advanced in the world because in key sectors there are many companies competing for a single contract. Unfortunately, with the demise of McDD and Lockheed in the large aircraft market, Boeing is now in a position where it isn't forced to innovate as much. Seeing as Airbus seems like it is willing to sell its soul for this deal, I don't see why it would be impossible to convince them to transfer all production to the United States, and reinvigorate the market with the type of innovation necessary for the 21st century.

Aaron G.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:31 pm

I think Airbus should drop their $21 Billion illegal US state aid for Boeing claim they said they will file if they want to have a chance on a KC330.

On the other site I curious to know how happy the USAF would be with a second best tanker they know they have to buy mainly to keep a dated production line open before the 7e7 goes into civil production.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:46 pm

Can Airbus actually afford to build a new plane without any funds. Airbus always asking for funds is starting to become a joke.

Boeing could theoretically apply for the exact same aid
But Boeing doesn't ask for some aid because Boeing has guts.
 
couzinet70
Posts: 13
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:05 pm

777ER, are the guts you are talking about referring to the earlier bid to lease 100 767-based tankers to the US airforce ???? These are indeed real guts, but illegal, no ?

I think it take some courage to announce one day after the joint EU-US statement that Airbus will seek 1$BN REFUNDABLE aids... The real world is out there guys, both parties are playing all tricks required to win the game ! For once that EU is strong enough and has the courage to drive the show, I find it personally amusing....
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:14 pm

777ER, are the guts you are talking about referring to the earlier bid to lease 100 767-based tankers to the US airforce ???? These are indeed real guts, but illegal, no ?

Buy American. Simple as that. The tanker deal was actually a favorable one for the Air Force clouded in the mess created by one employee. BTW... Selling a tanker is not a subsidy. You may see it that way with those little blinders on, but it's hardly the case.


P.S.. I want to build a new plane, can Jaques lend me a billion or two?
 
dazeflight
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:24 pm

@Boeing7E7,

you're most probably not able to build it with a profit, so I guess he'd say no. It's unbelievable how many guys on here shut their ears when they hear that all loans have been repaid so far and that only 1/3rd of the development costs can be financed by loans. I don't know how many businesses would not use a 0% credit if it was available to them... That Boeing signed this treaty in 1992 just shows their arrogant attitude they had and have: they never thought they and their old-school planes could ever be catched up by this "european job-generation-project".

@777ER

congratulations for the most laughable comment of the week.

ciao
Daniel
 
gkirk
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:28 pm

There is no way in hell that the USAF would go for an A332 Tanker.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
greasespot
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:11 pm

It has nothing to do with guts. The gov't will not give them the subsidy. IF the money was available Boeing would go after as much as they could get like Airbus. Look at the battle they set up for manufacturing the 7E7....It was a "who ever gives us the most gets the manufacturing" type of competition.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:33 pm

"The gov't will not give them the subsidy"
Well lets say they won't name it subsidy..

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:34 pm

The world's largest commercial aircraft maker . . . running back to sugar daddies for more toy money.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:34 pm

It is outrageous and the not surprising in the least. Despite having 53% of the market and claiming to be "profitable" Airbus still will not bear the full risk of an airplane project.

Airbus and the EU actually believe all of the distortions and mischaracterizations they have made about the U.S. Despite all of their whining about NASA and DOD projects, Airbus would not have been able to apply winglets, fly-by-wire technology, and 5,000 psi hydraulic systems without the American taxpayer. These technologies were developed by NASA and DoD respectively. On the other hand, Europe does not share its publicly funded aerospace research with any non-Europeans. It is handed to EADS et al.

The EU killed MDD and has got an increasingly weary Boeing on the run. Why stop now with a mere 53% market share? Monopolies are only bad if you are a consumer. They look awfully good if you are a net supplier of a good or service.

PVG,

Leskova and Udo are reasonable people. They are not the problem. Keesje for example suggests that EU should basically blackmail the US.
 
aa777jr
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:39 pm

Doesn't there have to be some sort of mediation as far as how much money Airbus can squeeze out of EU governments? Didn't that video on the 7E7 thread suggest that Boeing is currently trying to sue or have discussions with Airbus' current business practices?

Regards,
AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
AngelAirways
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 1999 3:55 am

RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:53 pm


Imagine you are very rich, and Bush offers you a tax break. Will you refuse it and say "Oh thats OK I really don't need a tax break I have quite enough with my full taxes paid, thank you".

Or if someone offered you a low rate loan, do you say "Oh thanks, I'll leave that because I can afford the higher rate high-street loan anyway"

Or do you take whats on offer, no matter how much you have...


Anyhow the EU and US have just agreed to scrap all subsidies soon.
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:45 pm

It's unbelievable how many guys on here shut their ears when they hear that all loans have been repaid so far and that only 1/3rd of the development costs can be financed by loans.

It's not a matter of paying the loans back, it's the matter of fare global competition.

I don't know how many businesses would not use a 0% credit if it was available to them...

Yes, and Boeing will be paying prime +1%. That's a lot of intrest on a multi-billion dollar loan.

That Boeing signed this treaty in 1992 just shows their arrogant attitude they had and have: they never thought they and their old-school planes could ever be catched up by this "european job-generation-project".

Arrogant or thoughtful, or is Airbus Greedy and Thankless.
 
starrion
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:52 pm

Keep in mind that the tanker they want to replace is not the KC-10 but the much smaller KC-135. The KC330 would be much larger than the USAF wants. With the KC-135 the USAF bought up a large number of old 707's from the airlines, parked them in Arizona and stripped them for spare parts. Kind of hard to do with the A330 but not at all hard to do with the 767. The 767 is a known reliable airframe and it will have commonality with all the other electronics platforms the the USAF has already bought.

Second best? Not by a long shot.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:59 pm

I thought Boeing secured that $23.5 billion dollar deal for 100 tankers to the USAF. With that $100,000 donation to relect G-Dub, I thought the deal was in th bag.  Smile

AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:06 am

Boeing7e7: "..., it's the matter of fare global competition."

What sort of fare do you mean?
signature censored by admin - so check my profile
 
airbazar
Posts: 6798
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:30 am

I think it's so freekin' funny when people think that the only rules to capitalism are those practiced in the US. I've got news for you all: Europeans are as capitalist as the Americans. They just play it by different rules. The greatest characteristic of capitalism is liberalism, which basically implies that there are many ways to go about it.

This reminds of an article I read once: "Americans never lose". They either underperform or are cheated by the opposition. Guess what fellas. Airbus is playing by the rules in existence. Aid is not a subsidy. It's just a different form of investment in a very profitable company, and that my friends is capitalism, whether you like it or not.

What difference does it make if that investment comes from company X, company Y, or the Government? The benefit of that investment can be many things, it doesn't always have to be cash, although as someone said above, the British government did receive good "cash" back in the form of royalties for their investment in the A320. Gee, what an idea. You invest money in a company for the development of a product, and you share in the profit. Isn't that Capitalism?!
There are other benefits: High paying jobs keeps the population happy and earning salaries which they will eventually pump back into the economy. Again, gee, isn't that Capitalism?!
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:36 am

Aa777jr they didn't get the KC767 (btw it wa all 1 person solely fault..), however Washington gave Boeing the $40 billion 737MP deal.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:43 am

Boeing7e7: "..., it's the matter of fare global competition."

What sort of fare do you mean?


Congrats! You win the grammar award!
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: Airbus Seeks $1Billion Launch Aid For A350

Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:37 am

I guess you should all be mad at your government for not living up to their side of the treaty and providing Boeing with the same subsidy...Hey it is a treaty and if they do not want to live up to it "tough noggies". The Europeans are just living up to the treaty as signed as in effect "right now".

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"

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