FCKC
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UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:06 am

According to Air et Cosmos magazine , both will be launch customers for this new version of the T7.
Since UPS cancelled A300-600Fs , moving to A380s , this paved the way for a 777-200LRF order.But for what ? Replace these cheap acquire MD11s ?
I do not really understand why they will add another airplane type to their fleet.
Surely for Air France T7Fs are the right size for Africa , where the 747-400F and ERF are too big.For many years now , they leased and still lease planes especially for the African market.But why LRF ? They do not need this range to reach Africa from their CDG hub.
Surely we can also put Eva Air in the T7F launch customers basket.
Lufthansa as already mentionned in other topics is not ready to be included.
 
Horus
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:10 am

Good news for the 772LR aircraft. An order by UPS is quite surprising but I guess it meets their requirements, as for AF well they've been long standing 'supporters' of the 777.

Horus

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777STL
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:25 am

A380s and 777s for UPS, I'm surprised. That's a lot of lifting power but then again I believe UPS has been wanting to get rid of there 741s.

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scbriml
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:27 am

I'd be somewhat surprised to see the parcel carriers ordering new-build 772LRFs. Apart from the fact they'll be hugely expensive, they'll bulk out way before they get anywhere near max payload. They'd be using a very expensive plane to carry way less than it can.
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BlatantEcho
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:35 am

Scbriml-

I believe that is why you won't see FedEx order them, but UPS is known for carrying more bulk cargo that can max out payload.

You are correct though, that FedEx it is said, maxes out volume way before payload.
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aviationwiz
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:36 am

Is this official that UPS will be a launch customer of the 777-200LRF? Just seems strange as they just cancelled some A300's & picked up some A380's.
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solnabo
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:42 am


UPS still has 13 A306F on order + 10 380F, so why the 772-LRF?

Another wild roumor like the 50(?) 320 for JAL?

Micke / SE  Confused
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daedaeg
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:44 am

I'm not surprised with Air France, they seem to really love the 777. They even made a little presentation for the Boeing employees on the rollout of the 500th 777 celebration. It should be interesting to see who else joins in the fray for the 777LRF.
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
usairways85
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:46 am

It's not that surprising. UPS will mainly use the 380 in asia where freight traffic is booming and landing slots are limited. In a few years all of UPS' 747's will be gone and the 380 will have to step in its place and replace current 747 routes as well as expand to new routes. The A300 will mainly be used for domestic freight the 772 will be used to Europe and current 747 routes that don't need the 380 and the 763 will be used for Europe as well. Don't know about the MD-11's, some people have mentioned that UPS could sell them back to Boeing possibly for these 772's.
 
FCKC
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:47 am

SOLNABO

NO , it's NOT official , just read this info like i said in the very reliable French weekly magazine Air et Cosmos.
Near 100% of the infos they published first , have been verified
 
gigneil
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:48 am

I do not really understand why they will add another airplane type to their fleet.

Well, the reality is that they need more planes, and they don't have enough used and modern jets available on the market.

The 777-200F is the perfect replacement for the MD-11F, and they'll probably phase out that fleet type after they reach their capacity needs.

This clearly underscores their decision to go with the 380 being the right one - they badly need international capacity and its hard to come by.

They'd be using a very expensive plane to carry way less than it can.

They'll also get the benefits of range as a result, carrying parcels from SDF to Asia, for example, like FX can do with the M11F.

It works out.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:18 am

They do not need this range to reach Africa from their CDG hub.

Keep in mind that the 772LRF, though based on the longest-ranged commercial aircraft ever launched, will still "only" have A-market range.




An order by UPS is quite surprising

No it isn't... 5X (and EK) have publically called for/demonstrated interest in such an aircraft since March 2002.
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tjwgrr
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:44 am

Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
FlySSC
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:24 am

Keep in mind that the 777LRF, though based on the longest ranged commercial aircraft ever launched...

Keep in mind tha,t for the moment, the longest-ranged aircraft ever launched is the Airbus A340-500... as the B772LR has never flown yet.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
gigneil
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:26 am

The A340-500 is the longest-ranged aircraft in commercial service.

The 777-200LR is the longest-ranged aircraft ever launched.

N
 
MidnightMike
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:50 am

Well, would imagine with the 777 order that UPS will finally retire those DC8's. MD11 would be used to cover the 747 flying, 777 to cover the DC8 flying...... So, just a guess 747 & DC8's to be retired in the near future......
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gigneil
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:23 am

Mike-

I expect DC-8s to be replaced by A300s, A300s to be replaced by 767s, 767s to be replaced by M11s, M11s to be replaced by 777s, 747s to be replaced by A380s.

It filters down.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

N
 
aa777jr
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:32 am

Why does 5X need the 772LR? Big fleet to keep up with already...
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
rtfm
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:43 am

Good grief - AF stating that 'they seem to really love the 777. They even made a little presentation for the Boeing employees on the rollout of the 500th 777 celebration'. Seems terribly pro-Boeing of them (for a European carrier) .... whatever next...?  Big grin
 
A350
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:47 am

Lufthansa as already mentionned in other topics is not ready to be included.

Well, I still have some hope that a 699000 lbs MTOW, RR-powered 777F will come and LH will buy it. After all, this MTOW reduction by 67000 lbs would mean to lose some range, but no cargo capacity.

A350
 
gigneil
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:49 am


Well, I still have some hope that a 699000 lbs MTOW, RR-powered 777F will come and LH will buy it.


I'm afraid your faith is pointless. Boeing isn't going to offer two different new build freighters.

The only hope you have for an RR freighter is a 777-200(SF).

N
 
daedaeg
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:51 am

Seems terribly pro-Boeing of them (for a European carrier) ....

Nah, they just know a real quality aircraft when they see it.  Smile
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
behramjee
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:15 pm

I wouldnt be surprised to see in the future an order by ANA for B 772LR Freighters replacing B 763Fs currently in the fleet.

Other airlines that can could do well with the B 772LRF are Malaysian Airlines and Air Hong Kong which can replace B 742Fs/B743Fs.

I do not see Varig nor DAS AIR CARGO of Africa ordering B 772LRFs for at least 10 years as they'll be replacing their DC 10-30Fs with MD11Fs.

 
N1120A
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:53 pm

>Replace these cheap acquire MD11s ?
I do not really understand why they will add another airplane type to their fleet.<

Because number of types does not mean as much to cargo carriers as it does to PAX carriers, just like fuel consumption. They can keep both planes. The problem with the MD-11 is that only 200 were ever built, and they are all accounted for (including those WFU or W/O)

>Surely for Air France T7Fs are the right size for Africa , where the 747-400F and ERF are too big.For many years now , they leased and still lease planes especially for the African market.But why LRF?<


At MTOW, because of the increased weights of freight carrying, you are talking 5200 nm range, which is still amazing in freight carrying context.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:52 pm

Seems terribly pro-Boeing of them (for a European carrier) .... whatever next...?

Sorry... there are a good deal of people in this world (like AF) who don't make impulse decisions based on (pointless) "allegience" to a certain product because of its nationality.

AF stating that 'they seem to really love the 777. They even made a little presentation for the Boeing employees on the rollout of the 500th 777 celebration'

Well they are one of the largest 777 customers, was a launch customer for the 773ER, and recieved the first 773ER delivery. They are also one of the largest A320 opperators and an A380 launch customer... what's your point?
 
william
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:08 pm

Keep in mind kids that UPS also brought Menlo. Menlo ( Emery and has a hub in Dayton) specializes in fast heavy lifting. Big palletized items,not small parcels UPS is used to handling. Menlo does a good job at moving bulky (computer mainframes) expensive stuff. Yet their fleet are old DC-8s,and you can bet UPS will be updating their fleet too.

There are many variables that went into this and the A380 order,it was not made in a vacuum.
 
icebird757
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:51 pm

MidnightMike hit it right on the head. I see the 777 replacing the DC-8s as they are probably the oldest in the fleet.
LGB....where you can watch the grass grow because the traffic is so slow.
 
mdl21483
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:40 pm

Using 777s to replace the DC-8s seems a bit overkill- the payload range increase alone would be like increasing the route capacity by what, around 200%???.

I am more inclined to believe what gig suggested as far as fleet upgrades-

I expect DC-8s to be replaced by A300s, A300s to be replaced by 767s, 767s to be replaced by M11s, M11s to be replaced by 777s, 747s to be replaced by A380s.

It filters down.


And what about the 727s and 757s???

Maybe the 727-200s replace the 727-100s, 757-200s take over the 727-200 routes, DC-8-70s take over the 757-200 routes, AND the older DC-8s get sold, leased, or retired. That would be closer to a 30% increase in each route's payload capacity, instead of the around 200% increase. Doesn't take a Doctorates to figure that one out. Maybe the MD-11s will be replaced by some A330-300Fs in a couple of years too... that'd be cool though

~{@ Mel @}~
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gigneil
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:53 pm

The 333 wouldn't feature the same mission profile as an M11. Its payload would be signficantly lower (65ish tons) and range would be shorter.

N
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:15 pm

I wouldnt be surprised to see in the future an order by ANA for B 772LR Freighters replacing B 763Fs currently in the fleet.

ANA can not operate freighters over 55t by agreement with NCA and no more than three of them at that, so the 772F is out of the question for NH unless the terms with NCA are changed. There is only one 763F in the fleet right now, JA601F, and it will most likely be the only one for some time.

Lower gross weight new build 777 freighters are also out of the realm of possibility. Although you can expect to see a 777 freighter conversion program that would convert A and B market 777-200's to 75t and 95t freighters respectively, in the next 2-5 years.

-widebodyphotog
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UAcsOKC
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:50 pm

I seriously doubt UPS will up and retire all their DC-8s, you get a lot of bang for your buck on those aircraft. However I believe that a 777 aquisition is an excellent idea for them. They can bulk them out and never come close to max gross- a good thing for international flying. this can allow them to take advantage of the 777s range on their ever growing INT. market. Also the MD-11 has weight and balance issues that make them more difficult to load. Just ask any Fedex person.
I love the rumble of a 727 takeoff in the morning!
 
BrowntailWhale
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:26 am

All you armchair CEO's crack me up! I love it how you guys speculate on what UPS should do. Here's the deal, UPS management has no philosophical problem operating many different aircraft types. Whether or not that is a smart decision is another point. The 727s got a temporary stay of execution, we have 20 in service now and we originally planned to park most them right after peak 2004. They will now be in service indefinitely. Four DC-8s were scheduled to be parked after peak 2004, they are now going to be given the heavy checks they need and will remain in service along with the other DC-8s indefinitely ( I think we have approx. Four DC-8s in storage ). Some 727 and DC-8 routes are scheduled to be upsized to either the 757 or A-300 later this year, with the aircraft then used for operational spares. The four 757s we leased to Star are being returned and will be used for domestic routes this year. We are getting four more MD-11s this year to be used for increased international volume. We are getting seven more A-300s this year, mainly to be used domestically.


If UPS buys 777Fs, they will not be in service till late in the decade, SO UPS will be forced to continue to use the existing MD-11 and 747 fleet till the A380 and possibly a 777F enter service. A couple of possible wild card scenarios are UPS buying assets of Atlas/Polar to increase lift in the short term or leasing more 747-200SFs.

To sum it up from the above posts, the 727 fleet will be around for a couple more years at least. The DC-8s are not going anywhere anytime soon. The 747s will have to stay in service unless UPS buys assets of another airline or leases more 747s. I think what you will see later in the decade is when the A-380 and possibly 777F enter service is that UPS will finally retire the 747s and replace the MD-11 fleet with the newly acquired widebodies.

[Edited 2005-01-15 16:30:26]

[Edited 2005-01-15 16:33:19]
 
MidnightMike
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:02 am

Browntailwhale

Oh have some fun dude, this is an aviation website and we are simply talking about airplanes. Most of us realize that change takes time & that you do not simply replace an airplane at a moments notice. When we read press releases about airplane orders, all we can do is speculate as to what is going on? Everybody has an opinion, if not, then this website would be very quiet.... "We mean you no harm"
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BrowntailWhale
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:18 am

Actually I do enjoy the speculation, keep it up!
 
MidnightMike
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:21 am

Browntailwhale

Which equipment are you on?
NO URLS in signature
 
BrowntailWhale
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:38 am

747, hence my name! Will hopefully be changing it to browntail380 in a few years!
 
columba
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:18 am

"747, hence my name! Will hopefully be changing it to browntail380 in a few years!"

Good luck with that !!
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
gigneil
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:17 am

Will hopefully be changing it to browntail380 in a few years!

Hey I actually have a question. How does 5X cater those longhauls?

Do you have to run back and fix your own food?

The reason I ask is because you have an actual honest to god table to eat on in your future.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

N
 
BrowntailWhale
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:37 am

Long haul flights are catered. Yes, someone has to go in back and prepare the food.
 
N1120A
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:20 am

>Also the MD-11 has weight and balance issues that make them more difficult to load. Just ask any Fedex person. <

And make the second question just how profitable the planes are. Loading issues are not going to keep those planes out of the sky.

Does UPS have the need for nose loading? If so, would they want to pick up newer build 747Fs?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
gigneil
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:18 am

Korean has some experience with the weight and balance of the M11F, as well.  Nuts


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UPS Pilot
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:57 pm

The MD11 could have loading issues if not loaded properly. The key word is properly!. I have a bet going on which hub is going to tip the 11 first. I'm picking ONT. As long as belly A gets loaded with at least 3000lbs then you will be fine.

The only assets UPS would be interested in purchasing would be 744's. Why would UPS turn in lease options on classic 200's right now with very stong INTL. growth? 3 man crew and less efficient operations of 747 classics are going to make them dissappear from fleet. The 380 is still 4 years away.

No real need for nose loading. UPS did purchase Menlo to aquire more heavy airfreight presence. UPS at PHL is designing and constructing a new 45,000 SF cargo building for heavy freight. Fed Ex carries more cargo than anyone but not one open nose freighter in the fleet.
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:30 pm

Hope the UPS and AF B772LRF order turns true.
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BrowntailWhale
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:38 am

The latest at UPS from a very reliable source is deal for 25 747-400SF's, with the first to be in service hopefully late this year.
 
gigneil
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:41 am

That's also very interesting.

The 744 has a lot of unusable space in FX's container-centric configuration.

N
 
UPS Pilot
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:17 am

Talks are close with the 747 and with the 777 LRF. Boeing is still trying to sell the 747 ADV Freighter in the deal.
 
aa61hvy
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:49 am

I'm curious if 5X does get the A380, will they bust out the seperator between the two decks? Or will they keep them completely seperate?
Go big or go home
 
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solnabo
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:53 am


Reading all the posts in this topic, it looks like the freighter version of 7LR is a hit.....

Great news!

Micke  Insane
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
gigneil
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-20

Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:25 am

I'm curious if 5X does get the A380, will they bust out the seperator between the two decks? Or will they keep them completely seperate?

The floor is part of the structure.

5X likely wants the plane for cubes not pounds. They have the 741 and soon to be 777 apparently for pounds.

N
 
UPS Pilot
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RE: UPS And Air France Launch Customers For 777-200LRF

Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:13 pm

Right now UPS is working with Airbus on reconfiguring the A380 for UPS operations. It will be different from Fed Ex's configuration as the a300.

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