MAH4546
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CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:20 am

Continental Connection carrier CommutAir is ending four routes out of their Albany, New York mini-hub on 24 January 2005. They are:

Albany-Hartford
Albany-Montreal
Albany-Ottawa
Albany-Wilkes Barre

Guess the profit wasn't there...
a.
 
mu2
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:31 pm

They should bring back KUCA (Utica). It's just such a nice little airport. They need something.
 
Spike
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:32 pm

Doesn't seem that the profit is anywhere over there.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:27 pm

Maybe they will move some of those Beeches down to IAH and start a few smaller texas routes. SPS would definately welcome some CO service.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:37 pm

Maybe they will move some of those Beeches down to IAH and start a few smaller texas routes. SPS would definately welcome some CO service.

No. Skywest does the IAH service, not Commutair. Commutair does Northeast flying (while Gulfstream does Florida/Bahamas and Cape Air does Florida and Guam).

Commutair will be replacing Continental Express on the CLE-DTW route in February. They may replace CoEx on other routes soon.
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MaverickM11
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:43 pm

I've heard that Commutair served no purpose other than to facilitate CO's entry into HPN. Is that correct? Honestly, why else would CO take an interest in a carrier that has no hub feed whatsoever?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:01 pm

Honestly, why else would CO take an interest in a carrier that has no hub feed whatsoever?

Commutair operates regional flights from CO's Cleveland hub.
a.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:06 pm

"Commutair operates regional flights from CO's Cleveland hub."

Not before CO took an interest I don't think...plus what does CO do with an ALB "hub"?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:09 pm


Not before CO took an interest I don't think...plus what does CO do with an ALB "hub"?


CO doesn't do anything with an ALB hub.

Commutair is a franchise carrier for Continental, as is Gulfstream and, I believe, Skywest. Commutair pays Continental a fee for being able to use the Continental name and reservation system, but Commutair pays the employees, hires the staff, picks the routes, schedules the aircraft, and collects the revenue from the flights.

Commutair benefits from CO's extensive global network. CO benefits by getting a feeder network. Regardless of what the routes are, it is a feeder network and brings new passengers to CO and allows CO to serve smaller markets, like Naples, San Angelo, Andros Island, and Utica, that they would otherwise not have a presence in.

As for CO's monetary investment into Commutair itself (and they have also invested in Gulfstream Air), well, that is an investment. It invests to put money into a feeder airline to keep their fleet up to standards and that pays you royalities to use their name and image, which you want to keep to high standards.
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tjwgrr
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:13 pm

Commutair from CLE (some flights are certain days only.)

CVG
PIT
FNT
ERI
FWA
CRW
ELM
AVP
SBN
TOL
GRR
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:12 am

"CO doesn't do anything with an ALB hub. "

I know, and that's at least 50% of the Commutair operation, and I bet it's losing money.

"As for CO's monetary investment into Commutair itself (and they have also invested in Gulfstream Air), well, that is an investment."

The ALB hub probably loses money, and I'd bet the CLE operation is not segment profitable, but maybe beyond profitable. I just think there's an ulterior motive for CO's purchase of Commutair and I've heard it's the HPN slots. It'd be interesting to see both Commutair's and CO's operations at HPN before and after the purchase. Any idea when the 3 daily CLE/HPNs started?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ramerinianair
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:12 am

I just witnessed the ALB-Montreal and Ottawa flights go out with a zero load factor on Sunday!!!
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
toltommy
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:24 am

Are these aircraft being moved to support the expansion of South Florida/Bahamas service?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:34 am

I'm not surprised. BE1 operations are falling out of fashion, if not already, and few, if any, are profitable. I have a lot of contact with the Great Lakes operation here in Denver and also the Commutair operation in Ithaca when it was part of USAirways Express and then Continental Connection briefly. Unless the breakeven load factof of that aircraft is 12% I can't imagine either are doing very well.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:38 am

"Are these aircraft being moved to support the expansion of South Florida/Bahamas service?"

They're two completely different entities but I think I'd see more aircraft at CLE before they were ferried down to the Carribean. The aircraft are not allowed at EWR so you can scratch that off the list.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AirT85
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:38 am

Forgive my ignorance, but why arent the aircraft allowed at Newark?

-Tony
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:52 am

I could have sworn there was a minimum seat capacity of 30 seats to operate into/out of EWR, or it might have been a minimum landing speed with which the BE1 does not comply.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N766UA
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:54 am

Commutair will be replacing Continental Express on the CLE-DTW route in February.

I don't understand why they would even operate the route with a 1900. Same with CVG- DL flies 737s to CVG and NW flies DC-9s to DTW but CO can only scrape up a Beech? They're all partners why doesn't CO just drop the route?
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OH-LGA
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:34 am

Commutair is a franchise carrier for Continental, as is Gulfstream and, I believe, SkyWest.

SkyWest is... for the time being, however, we've just been underbid on our Continental Connection contract on ex-IAH routes, and our agreement will end in the near future.

Kai
Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:26 am

They're all partners why doesn't CO just drop the route?

CO/NW/DL cannot codeshare on hub routes.
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DCA-ROCguy
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:47 am

The ALB hub probably loses money, and I'd bet the CLE operation is not segment profitable, but maybe beyond profitable. I just think there's an ulterior motive for CO's purchase of Commutair and I've heard it's the HPN slots. It'd be interesting to see both Commutair's and CO's operations at HPN before and after the purchase. Any idea when the 3 daily CLE/HPNs started?

How do you know this? If CO had to buy a controlling interest in Commutair to get HPN slots, they'd presumably have cut all non-performing non-HPN routes once they got the slots. It seems to me that the service itself is the better indicator. If Commutair keeps the majority of ALB spokes going, it more likely means the hublet is probably doing just fine. ALB, unlike EWR, doesn't get congested. Business pax--for whom CO has tailored their product--probably like faster and quieter connections at ALB on routes for which EWR would be a bit out of the way.

I remember reading in the Rochester paper I think it was, that part of the reason CO set up the ALB hublet was to route some pax around EWR. EG, Upstate NY to New England. Also, there's history to suggest that ALB is well located to work as a small-carrier hublet: Mall Airways ran a hublet with 19-seat a/c there during the 1980's.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
MaverickM11
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:53 am

"How do you know this? "

It's just a guess, but a reasonably good one. Knowing what happens at other BE1 carriers and experiencing a lot of the Commutair operation first hand, combined with the industries distaste for props--especially 19 seat props, and the fact that they just cut four routes, I'd guess that they are not making money at ALB. Is Commutair subsidized at all?

[Edited 2005-01-18 21:55:23]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Smalbany
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:56 am

All I know is that the number of flights that commutair has been flying out of ALB has dropped recently. Most of the routes appear to have been reduced from 4 daily to 2 daily. There are also 4 to 5 of their aircraft that have been parked at the maintenance hanger for a few weeks. I'm not sure what this says for Commutair's future at ALB.
 
N766UA
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:06 am

CO/NW/DL cannot codeshare on hub routes.

In that case how can CO expect to make money flying flippers on routes where NW and DL are flying mainline?
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DC-10inLB
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:43 am

Commutair is an independant carrier with a contract to fly for Continental. As to why CO doesn't drop some of the routes like CLE-CVG and give it to a partner, sometimes theres nothing like having your own brand fly in there. Though the B1900 is small, it offers a frequency and perhaps fullfills the demand that CO has for that route that they may not be able to achieve with the 73s. My freind used to fly it, not sure how the loads were though. Who knows perhaps they'll find their way to Texas as we've (SkyWest) been underbid and are leaving that system. So I suppose we'll be getting a few more silver birds back into the UA/DL system.
 
ncflyer
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:43 am

If WN flew CLE-CVG (a hyptothetical) I'd guarantee you they would fill up a bunch of 737s. There's tons of demand on that route, it's all on I-71 right now though, because there are no low fares. I get $400 a week in advance. WN would do better and stimulate demand.
 
ncflyer
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:47 am

Tjwgrr
I don't see where you get CLE-GRR, it's not on the commutair website or continental.com on the dates I checked in Feb. Do you know something?
 
CLEfan
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:04 am

Ncflyer,

I saw one flight on Saturday operated by a BE1 when I checked the timetable for July. All the rest are ERJs.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:10 am

On a completely unrelated note, I've always found that the BE1 crews for both Commutair and Air Midwest have been some of the nicest, most down to earth, and occasionally hottest cockpit employees in the industry. They were always willing to help out wherever they could.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
columbia409
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:00 am

The ALB flights in question are seasonal and will return in the spring. No news here.
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO Ending Four ALB Routes

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:13 am

The ALB flights in question are seasonal and will return in the spring. No news here.


No, they are not.

They are clearly listed as being discontinued at Continental's website and are not in reservation systems past 24Jan05.
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