gaut
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 10:57 am

A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:35 am


- With the GP7200 powered A380, the proportion of American product in the aircraft reach 40%!!
- The A380 will create 100000 jobs in USA.

So the communist EU helps the USA  Big grin

What is the percentage of US and EU product in the B7E7?

Sorry, only in French: http://www.courrierinternational.com/article.asp?obj_id=46075&provenance=ameriques&bloc=06

Gaut
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
aaflt1871
Posts: 2166
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:29 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:46 am

I translated the part of the article in english for ya.

Moreover, "on already decrees with the plane the statute of machine with employment, not only in its native Europe, but also in the United States. The participation of the German aircraft industry created 10 000 jobs beyond the rhine, which depend directly or indirectly on A380. When the production passes to eight units per month, this figure could easily reach the 40 000. The analysts estimate that in the United States, 100 000 employment will be directly from the European large-carrier. Approximately half of the 149 already ordered specimens will fly with American engines, which makes assemble to 40 % the proportion of American material in these machines", observe Die Welt.
Where did everybody go?
 
qwerty
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:31 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:20 am

That engine comes ourt of Cincy, OH, I believe. I've been to that plant, I don't think there are 100,000 employees there with all shifts.

Of course, I understand there are GE supplier jobs, etc. etc. But still even at 1 direct OH job to 4 indirect, I can see how there is a 20,000 person impact for just the powerplants in Ohio. That would be a heck of a hire up.

I could be grossly incorrect on this back-of-the-napkin analysis.
 
LongbowPilot
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:16 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:25 am

sounds snifty Big grin USA USA! Big grin and EU EU!
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:28 am

Qwerty:

You quite sure of that? The GP7200 is based in part on the GE90...which is done in Raleigh-Durham, I think.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
trex8
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:36 am

its not just the engines, Honeywell, Goodrich and many others are involved. Alcoa supposedly started a whole new factory to supply the plane!

100,000 maybe a little excessive, but its still very significant

large commercial jetliners are a global undertaking these days. the 7e7 will be more than half non American for sure as Japan has 35%, Italy 12% and that doesn't even include the engines, if its a RR one very little of that comes from RR in Indiana (nee Allison), its nearly all from the UK or Europe and a little from Japan. Various French/Euro companies are responsible for a variety of other systems and the whole freaking CAD system Boeing will use and make all its suppliers use is a Dassault/ IBM France product!
 
daedaeg
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:54 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:40 am

That engine comes ourt of Cincy, OH, I believe. I've been to that plant, I don't think there are 100,000 employees there with all shifts.

Of course, I understand there are GE supplier jobs, etc. etc. But still even at 1 direct OH job to 4 indirect, I can see how there is a 20,000 person impact for just the powerplants in Ohio. That would be a heck of a hire up.

I could be grossly incorrect on this back-of-the-napkin analysis.


I'm sure it's not coming all from GE. There is Smith Aerospace, Goodrich, Honeywell, tons of others that i can't think of right now. 100,000 seems to be quite a lot. I wonder how they came to that number.

What is the percentage of US and EU product in the B7E7?
I dont know the figure but there are quite a few european and asian suppliers supporting the 7E7. I know Alenia Aeronautical, Fokker, Fischer, GKN, and Dassault are some of the european suppliers.

Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:46 am

Alenia is supplying a significant portion of the fuselage of the 7E7.

There's the usual suspects. Here's a list:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/7e7/dev_team.html

N
 
gaut
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 10:57 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:47 am

Those jobs come from the participation in the A380 of:

GEAE
P&W
GOODRICH
ALCOA
HAMILTON SUNDSTRAND
HONEYWELL AEROSPACE
PARKER AEROSPACE
SMITH AEROSPACE
GKN
EATON
NORTHROP GRUMMAN
CRANE AEROSPACE
CYTEC
............


Not so bad for US !

Gaut
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:49 am

It should be said that Rolls-Royce has significant operations in Indianapolis (what used to be Allison), so large chunks of the Trent come from there.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
gaut
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 10:57 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:52 am

Trex8

Does it means that the B7E7 is not more American than the A380?? (based on those proportions)

Gaut
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
daedaeg
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:54 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:52 am

It should be said that Rolls-Royce has significant operations in Indianapolis (what used to be Allison), so large chunks of the Trent come from there
Yeah, a lot of people dont realise that. They assume it's all coming from Britain. A buddy of mine works there.
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
gaut
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 10:57 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:56 am

Daedaeg,

Are you sure Dassault is a supplier of the B7E7?

Gaut
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:02 am

It should be said that Rolls-Royce has significant operations in Indianapolis (what used to be Allison), so large chunks of the Trent come from there.

RR USA builds more engines than any other production unit in the Rolls Royce group. The American business has been a good investment. Especially with so many RB211 engines in use in the USA.

Are you sure Dassault is a supplier of the B7E7?

Dassault supplied the software used to design the 7E7. They don't just make aircraft, but the CAD packages used for their development.

It's simply the best specialised package currently available which is why Boeing will have bought it in.

[Edited 2005-01-20 00:05:18]
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
gaut
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 10:57 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:08 am

Whitehatter,

You are right I forgot CATIA. Every aerospace company use this software!

Gaut

[Edited 2005-01-20 00:08:46]
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
ktliem@YVR
Posts: 158
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 3:25 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:15 am

This Website has a listing of all A380 suppliers:

http://forum.sbac.co.uk/supplychain/SupplyTreeredir.asp?Proj=9
 
trex8
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:17 am

The IN RR operation supplies very little to the Trent program -its something like maybe a single % of the components, though they are planning on increasing it. RR Germany supply far more as RR N America has pretty much stuck to providing the Allison products. Heck IHI in Japan probably supply far more of the Trent than RR America. IN do have a signifcant share of RRs share of the IAE V2500 though but the Trent has been kept pretty much in the UK.

Dassaults Catia system, marketed and more recently developed with IBM France, is the CAD software that Boeing will use to design the 7e7, and the older version was used to design the 777 also. In fact every major aerospace manufacturer using CAD uses some variation of the Dassault system ! Every 7E7 supplier will need to invest in the system so they can be part of the supply chain

It is very likely, in fact almost certain that if the A380 is "40%" American, that the 7E7 will have less American sourced content. Its an absolute certainty the Japanese - Mitusbishi, Kawaski, Fuji have 35%. Alenia and Vought have 25% and Alenias share is reportedly slightly more than half. So just of the airframe, minus engines you have at least 47.5%. That doesn't include all the various other systems that many Euro companies ahve already bagged contracts for.

Its a global economy we live in!

[Edited 2005-01-20 00:26:20]
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:21 am

I'd be a bit skeptical about assertions of jobs created that don't include man hour numbers or any time information. 100K jobs at the extremely low pay of $25000/year for 10 years comes to $25 billion. That ignores cost of materials, rent and supplier profits.

If Airbus sells 250 planes over 10 years at $200 million a pop, thats $50 billion of revenue. 40% of that is $20 billion, which is quite a bit lower than the $25 billion that doesn't include cost of materials, rent and supplier profits. I don't see 100K man-years for the lifetime of the program coming out of the A380. More likely, 100K people will work part time on some aspect of the A380. But that doesn't amount to the creation of 100K jobs.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
clipperno1
Posts: 641
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 1999 12:47 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:26 am

I think this what all discussions should come down to.
The manufacturing of airliners is globalization coming to reality.
Forget A vs B, EU vs USA. Politicans should forget it as well. If either or both side has a successful plane, it's a win-win situation for both sides.
Maybe I'm a bit too optimistic, but I wouldn't be surprised if A and B actually even start to work together...not now maybe in 10-15yrs. Economies of scope effects would be tremendous.
"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."� Alfred Kahn, 1977
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2567
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:32 am

A380 will certainly never reach anywhere close to 8 units per month. Maximum will be around 4 units a month translating to 48 a year which means the current backlog can be cleared out in less than three years at that rate.
Early build rates maybe high but long-term output should be one to two units per month.
 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 6:01 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:32 am

Does anyone suppose that some day we would see either the merging of Airbus and Boeing (Aireing?) (Boebus?) or a joint design/manufacture of an airplane?
Remember, a few years ago no one would imagine that Daimler would buy Chrysler, that Hondas would be built in Ohio, or that Pan Am would go under. Anything is possible, I suppose.
FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
ulfinator
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:35 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:34 am

Don't forget Triumph Composite Systems of Spokane

They happen to be a factory/business that Boeing sold off not to long ago

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002150648_triumph14.html
 
clipperno1
Posts: 641
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 1999 12:47 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:40 am

Remember, a few years ago no one would imagine that Daimler would buy Chrysler, that Hondas would be built in Ohio, or that Pan Am would go under. Anything is possible, I suppose.

You forgot the merger of Boeing and MD!
"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."� Alfred Kahn, 1977
 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 6:01 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:43 am

You forgot the merger of Boeing and MD!
ClipperNo1:
My list was not a complete one but your offering is certainly more aviation related.
FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
Espion007
Posts: 1653
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:29 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:45 am

espion007: 0% gives a crap
Snakes on a Plane!
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Posts: 5498
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:49 am

You quite sure of that? The GP7200 is based in part on the GE90...which is done in Raleigh-Durham, I think.

That would be cool if the A380 were getting it's engines from GE's Research Triangle Park site (Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill area). I know the RTP site is also making the engines for the 787, as well as engines for the new Space Shuttle.. seems like there is going to be a big boom in this area.. whee-haaa!
Aiming High and going far..
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8025
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:00 pm

I hate to say this, but just about all large ticket items sold around the world have parts made from all over the world.

Take for example many automobiles sold in Europe. A good example is the new Mini Cooper, which has parts made in several countries that are shipped to the final assembly line in the UK. As such, the Airbus A380 has parts made from all over the world, including a large number of parts made by American aerospace companies; for example, Airbus needed American expertise for the very high pressure hydraulic system used control the moving surfaces on the wings and the stabilizers on the tail.

Even though Europe claims the Airbus A380 is a European product, their chauvanism ignores the fact they still need a lot of American aerospace technology just to build the plane.  Smile
 
rparker537
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:11 pm

2 points:

1) It's not the jobs that matter, but where the $$$ flows back to (e.g., location of shareholders)

2) You can't accurately say that x jobs are created because the purchase of airbus planes simply replaces potential boeing purchases. So the correct calculation would be news airbus jobs minus boeing jobs lost (either actual losses or decreases in future/potential hiring) -- basically, you're all forgetting the opportunity cost.
 
gaut
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 10:57 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:45 am

The purpose of this topic was to show, as Trex8 said, that we live in a global economy. Airbuses are not 100% European as Boeing are not 100% American.

I have the feeling (maybe I'm wrong) that a lot of US members don't like Airbus because it isn't American and it's why I wanted to share this information: the BE7 will not be more American than the A380 according to those proportions!!

It's time to stop this Airbus or Boeing bashing from both side of the Ocean. I'm part of those guys who love both Airbus and Boeing equally... Maybe because I work for a company involved in both A and B aircrafts!

RayChuang,

"Even though Europe claims the Airbus A380 is a European product, their chauvanism ignores the fact they still need a lot of American aerospace technology just to build the plane."

I hope you are ironic !

Regards

Gaut
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
milan320
Posts: 818
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:25 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:24 am

1) It's not the jobs that matter, but where the $$$ flows back to (e.g., location of shareholders)

Tell that to the folks in Wichita at Airbus, I'm sure they'll disagree with you.
/Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
trex8
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:26 am

or the guys working for Toyota, Honda etc in the US
 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:36 am

It should be noted that it may not necessarily be American.
Both Honeywell and Goodrich build some part of the assemblies for
Engine(Honeywell) and Landing Gear(Goodrich) in the Toronto area.


Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
airforum
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 10:48 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:01 am

Talking about chauvinism: don't forget the dutch technology involved...the use of the j-nose, glare (Stork Aerospace) and the hundreds of miles of wire in each A380 (Draka).

Could anyone please gimme a thumbs up for this as i am desperately looking for recognition....especially since these threads are all about airliners being either US or European made.

 Big grin

Wtf, i want to contribute to any new aircraft built anywhere in the world but gimme me the credits i deserve...and don't stick with just US or Europe...

Or just define the A380 and 7E7 as airliners manufactured with combined forces..after all that's what my southern neighbour Gaut from Belgium meant to say when he started this topic.

 Innocent
What goes up, must come down. Let's hope the sky never went up.
 
Areopagus
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:10 am

I don't think these comparisons of American content in 7E7 vs. 380 are apples-to-apples. Yes, "Airbus claims that 50 percent of A380 procurement is from American companies" (Seattle Times), but that excludes the airframe itself, which is all European/British. Substantial parts of the 7E7 airframe will be made in the US.
 
Oftwftwoab
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:53 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:35 am

Milan320: "It's not the jobs that matter, but where the $$$ flows back to (e.g., location of shareholders)."

Yes, but the shareholders of EADS (or of the shareholders of some of its shareholder companies), and more particularly of BAe, are non-EU - a considerable proportion of them from the US.

Similar internationalisation is found amongst the shareholders of Boeing, RR and GE. Even apparently US or EU shareholders are often investment institutions such as mutual funds who are managing capital provided by international investors.

The only thing that makes a US company, or an EU one, American or European is the law - it has nothing to do with economic interest.

 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:11 pm

2) You can't accurately say that x jobs are created because the purchase of airbus planes simply replaces potential boeing purchases. So the correct calculation would be news airbus jobs minus boeing jobs lost (either actual losses or decreases in future/potential hiring) -- basically, you're all forgetting the opportunity cost.

Your 'opportunity' cost fails to take into account the significant increase in airframes taken in my the airline industry as a result of heavy discounts on the part of both manufacturers. There is no accurate measurement as to the market size available if Airbus were to dissappear off the face of this earth, and it would be hard to predict the type of aircraft available flying in that scenario, whether or not they have the same performance and economy as we do with the aircraft today.

You will also find that the overall job creation rate as a result of this would be positive, simply because the same jobs will have duplication among the different manufacturers. I don't see the possibility of Airbus using Everett for assembly purposes, do you?
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1061
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:08 am

I read in an article that a company owned by some former classmates of mine will be making windows for the A380. Although the plane is European and on a certain level French, it was very encouraging to read that the A380 will be creating jobs in the US.
 
trex8
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:46 pm

>I don't see the possibility of Airbus using Everett for assembly purposes, do you?

anymore than Boeing using Toulouse or Hamburg!
maybe Lockheed wouldn't mind using Everett to assemble an Airbus design!

Airbus is actually soliciting for potential assembly sites in the US and have communicated with all 50 states! Can't see Hawaii or Alaska or Rhode Island in the running somehow. They are under the delusional thought they may have a chance with the KC135 replacement contract! Maybe they should look real close at Long Beach Smile/happy/getting dizzy They should have some big buildings and a well trained work force available by the end of 06!
 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: A380: 40% American

Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:50 pm

RayChuang: "Even though Europe claims the Airbus A380 is a European product, their chauvanism ignores the fact they still need a lot of American aerospace technology just to build the plane. "

I love to read the comments when somebody wants to give a reason why the American airline industry failed and the 747 now has a competitor.

You talking about European chauvanism - others talking about American habit to be the greatest. "We have the largest, we have the biggest ..." - now you have to say "We had the biggest ...".

Truth hurts, that's a fact.
signature censored by admin - so check my profile
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: A380: 40% American

Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:00 pm

A380 gets parts from 4 continents if I recall right, Africa (Tunisia), Europe,
North America and Asia. Any parts from South America and Australia?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos