MainRunway
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SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:37 am

feet?? I mean as it's primary runway and at an airport with a lot of mainline jets, not regionals. Just how difficult is it for them to operate with a 5700 ft runway? What is the minimum runway length for say a 737 or an A320?
 
Centurion493
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SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:15 am

Hi, SNA is my home airport. I can tell you that almost every air carrier coming into SNA goes all the way to the end before turning off and taxing to the terminal. In fact, when the make the left, the end of the runway barricades are right off the wing tip. They are moving fairly slowly at the time but it is apparent that if the Capt is off his game at all, he is through the fence. During landing, as soon as the mains touch down, the spoilers are up, reverse is brought up and max braking is occurring. The largest aircraft I have ever seen land here is 757 which routinely operates in and out of here. Most of the others are 737, A320's and MD 80's. Lots and Lots of biz jets like lears, G4 and G5's and numerous GA aircraft primarily using the 19L. Departure out of SNA is another E-ticket ride as the people living in the back bay area of Newport Beach are always whining about the noise so all air carriers do what is called a noise abatement max power TO. They all turn onto 19R all the way back, hold the brakes, come up on the power to take off setting and let her rip. As soon as the aircraft is positive rate, gear is up and they hold max rate of climb until reaching 1000 feet where they suddenly power back to about 60% and level off. The procedure is to follow the back bay until reaching the coast and then (with ATC clearance) come back up on the power (normal climb power) establish a normal rate of climb and get on down the road. The take off out of SNA is always preceded by an announcement by the Capt because of the unusually high deck angle and the sound of the power coming back right after take off. I dont know what the minimums are for the larger air carriers are but I am guessing that this is pretty close. BTW, curfew at SNA is no turbine powered AC between the hours of 2300 and 0700. (In the AM, there are generally no less than 10 different air carriers lined up on both sides of the active waiting for father time. They even back taxi on 19R and wait there. If you are a frequent flyer of GA into and out of SNA, you get to go right past the big boys to the front of the line while they wait. But dont get in the way at 7 Am and 1 second !!!

Bill
 
ACAfan
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SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:42 am

How is El Toro coming along?
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John
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SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:56 am

Fedex sends an A310 in there...I would assume it's takeoff weight is very restricted, however. Anyone know where it goes from SNA?
 
Centurion493
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:12 am

Sadly, El Toro (NZJ) has been sliced up into four commercial parcels and the auction has started. Some of it developed into housing, some into commerical and some of it into a park.........

Yeah, forgot about FedEx. Both FedEx and UPS come in here every afternoon about 5PM. Big, Slow and lumbering but fun to watch as they turn towards final. I live at about the outer marker and it is always interesting to see which of them get in first. Usually, FedEx make the approach first but I have seen UPS cut in front while FedEx in still in his turn from base to final out over anaheim hills. Dont have a clue where they go from here though.....FedEx to Atlanta??????

 
PanAm747
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:48 am

Fed Ex goes to Memphis.

Interesting that as restrictive as the NIMBY's are at SNA, take-offs of general aircraft are still permitted 24 hours a day. Is this true?

SAN has NO take-offs allowed between 11:30 PM - 6:30 AM (but landings are permitted 24/7). Drive along Laurel Street and Harbor Drive at 6:25 AM and you'd think it was the Rose Parade getting ready to start.

As for runway length, it was just recently discussed in the thread about JetBlue and SNA that certain planes are exceptionally overpowered, specifically the 737NG's and 757's. Perhaps Boeing had these small restricted CA airports in mind when they designed the planes.
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hawaiian717
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than

Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:49 am

FlyteComm currently shows FedEx with an A310 flight from Memphis to SNA as being planned. That makes sense, as MEM is a major FedEx hub.

David / ABQ
 
N1120A
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:24 am

>JetBlue and SNA that certain planes are exceptionally overpowered, specifically the 737NG's and 757's<

The 757 is very high powered yes (and not overpowered, because it is damn efficient too), but the 737NG, while having a better power to weight ratio than the A32S, is not in that league. Its slightly longer range helps though
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:51 am

MEM is a major FedEx hub

...more like THE major FedEx hub  Big grin
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PapaNovember
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:08 am



I had that takeoff experience once!! Kinda' like a Southwest flight outta' Love Field. It was an American 757 on a flight to Chicago. We backed up to the very edge of the runway, the Captain made his "being a good neighbor" speech/warning, ran up the engines as we sat still - I was sitting over the wing watching the wingtips shake thinking "this won't work!" and then we were off. He pulled WAY back on the stick and at (I thought he had said 3,000 feet) the proper altitude throttled WAY back. The sensations in my stomach were not pleasant..... The lady sitting in the aisle seat even asked me if I was going to be okay. A real White Knuckle ride for sure!
 
picarus
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than

Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:21 am

FedEx also regularly operates A300s in SNA.
 
iowa744fan
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:36 am

PapaNovember,

You didn't like the full throttle high angle of attack takeoff from SNA?  Smile It is kind of odd if you are not too used to it. Also, makes you wonder when you suddenly decrease power after only a few 100 feet aloft to meet noise requirements! A fun airport to go in and out of though!

Also, to comment from above, I have flown into SNA on a 757 of UA from SFO. The pilot had the spoilers up and the brakes on pretty hard I would say and we still went to the end of the runway. Fun though!
 
planespotting
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than

Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:43 am

WN out of DAL isn't a big deal, they have 8700' to work with, and normally they don't have to worry about that many NIMBY's. I'd say MDW On a hot summer day taking off from 4L fully loaded is tougher. I got to do that in the sim and there wasn't much runway left before the mains got off the ground, landing was a lot easier than the take off.
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Centurion493
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:19 pm

Yep, GA takeoff and landings are allowed 24 hours a day including smaller Bizjets. No air carriers btwn the hours of 2300 and 0700 and like you said, just before 7 Am, they are looking for places to park everyone getting ready to takeoff. In fact, most carriers flights have a departure time listed as 0645 hours from SNA which is when they close the doors and go get in line.
The tower obviously is also only open from 0700 to 2300 hours so after it closes, you have the place to yourself...uncontrolled field ! I should add that it is at least once or twice a week that you will hear a late flight on the approach which means the tower controllers get some overtime since air carriers cannot land at an airport without an operating control tower.

Funny story......Right after the ATC strike, ATC's everywhere had reduced operating hours which included SoCal approach who takes care if the approaches to airports in the LA basin, big and small. (Although I think LAX had their own approach control at the time). Anyway, I would shoot instrument approaches to SNA, LGB, FUL late at night because of the late night and early morning coastal clouds common to the area. Since So Cal approach was closed, LA Center would handle the initial approach portion of the approach but would lose you on radar before you could land because of the mountains so you would have to call on the phone after landing or try to call them on the radio to report landing assured after you were below the stratus. Kinda funny having a center facility handle a final approach taht they can not see when they are out in palmdale and you are over a hundred miles away. If you did not call they were required to call the sheriff to go look for you !

 
TWA902fly
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:26 pm

hey about that operating into an airport without a tower... Mesaba flies to plenty of fields in north dakota where there is no tower... jamestown, devils lake, and as far as i know mesaba is an air carrier... it might just be a rule at SNA that there are no air carriers without a control tower.

TWA902
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flyabunch
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than

Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:31 pm

I have flown out of SNA many times and I always enjoy the experience. However, a few months ago I was flying with a business associate and it was his first time out of SNA. I told him about the E coupon ride experience.

Wouldn't you know, the Santa Ana winds were blowing and we took off the other way. He turned to me and said "what's the big deal?"

Mike
 
lincoln
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:09 pm

hey about that operating into an airport without a tower... Mesaba flies to plenty of fields in north dakota where there is no tower... jamestown, devils lake, and as far as i know mesaba is an air carrier... it might just be a rule at SNA that there are no air carriers without a control tower.

Yeah, as far as I know PLN (Pellston Regional/Emmet County, MI) is towerless (If there is a tower, it is QUITE short  Smile) and has service from Mesaba, and Pinnacle on the pax side and UPS and FedEx (contractor, I think) on the parcel side.

As you leave the gate area there's this beat up old sign that just says "Pellston Radio xxx.xx". Last time I vlew out of there the capatain made an announcement about receiving our take off clearance in just a minute because the controller was busy with another airport's traffic. I nearly laughed out loud when he announced that we were currently #1 for departure. [When you only have one commercial aircraft on the ground at any given time and not much GA, it's kinda hard to be further back in line]

So maybe it's not a requirement to have an open tower but to have someone providing ATC clearances? Or maybe the opperators of smaller aircraft are exempt?

Lincoln

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lightsaber
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than

Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:14 pm

I get a kick out of the John Wayne roller coaster!
They've tried to expand the runway, but the NIMBY's with $$$$ are an unstoppable force. As one of the rare airports built under the FAA's "new airport in an existing suburb" rules, the noise limits are very strict. My question is why did SNA voluntarily agree to limit to 10 million PAX a year? (ok, it grows to 12 million in a few years.) The terminal is built for 14 to 16 million PAX a year! (Watching the "new" terminal go in was amazing... egad, I date myself...)

Its too late to wish that El Toro would at least become a GA airport... sigh...

Lightsaber.

added comment: Has anyone else noted how SNA and SAN are two of the largest single runway airports in the United States? Ok, nothing on Gatwick or Osaka's airport (and soon, I bet, Nagoya).

[Edited 2005-01-21 06:21:28]
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DHLSAN
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:40 pm

I believe SAN is the busiest single runway airport in the US.
Yellow?
 
lincoln
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:46 pm

DHLSAN --
I have been told the same thing.

Would it be correct to infer from your name you work AbEx down here?

Lincoln
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wnsocal
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:47 pm

FLYABUNCH: runway 1L takeoffs don't do the cut back because the poor people in the slums of Santa Ana and Tustin didn't have the money to fight for the E ticket ride out of 1L..There are only 3 noise montioring stations in the poor section.there are 7 on the RICH side aka "Backbay"..also The Airport is named after John Wayne and he was one of the biggest complainers about the noise. Smile
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Silver1SWA
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:54 pm

I was so pissed earlier this week. I flew to SNA and was looking forward to the departure. What happens? yes, that's right, reverse operations were in effect. I landed and took off on 1L. Grrrrrr...and two hours before my flight, they were using the 19s. Just my luck...

Oh well, guys I'll just have to go back...DARN!  Laugh out loud
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aa777jr
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:55 pm

Why isn't AA flying their 752 into SNA anymore, I only flew it once, and all the other times (at least 10) I've been on 738 or MD80. What gives? I'm sure they can fill the flight, it's always packed with kids and their familes going to Disneyland.  Smile
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DHLSAN
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:59 pm

Lincoln,

I am, or did until DHL bought us. Long live Ariborne Express!  Big thumbs up

And yes, comfimed on SAN's website, the busiest single runway airport in the U.S. I am south of the approach and it has been a busy night tonight, used to live 1 mile off 27, saw the belly of alot of planes.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

[Edited 2005-01-21 07:03:11]
Yellow?
 
2H4
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than

Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:16 pm

BTW, curfew at SNA is no turbine powered AC between the hours of 2300 and 0700.


Boy, makes you want to restore an old DC-7 or T-6 and do some late-night pattern work just to spite the NIMBY's....

 Big grin


2H4
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maiznblu_757
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RE: SNA: Only Big Airport With #1 Runway Less Than 6000

Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:38 pm

FedEx sends an A300 in there now and then. Especially around Christmas. Do a search in the DB. There are some pics of A300's operating out of SNA a few yrs ago.



[Edited 2005-01-21 07:44:42]

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