ssides
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B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:18 am

http://www.kyw1060.com/news_story_detail.cfm?newsitemid=43464

Personally, I could care less -- as long as they're keeping costs down and not compromising safety, it's fine by me.

Doesn't the work have to be done by certified mechanics? If that's the case, why would there be a problem doing it in El Salvador?

"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
NWAFA
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:19 am

Another thank you to Bush for having more american jobs leave the country.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
ssides
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:22 am

Yep, I'm sure Bush was directly involved in this.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:23 am

So, what? Every airline outsources, and there's nothing wrong with it. To B6's credit they're actually making money, and lower-cost mx is part of that success.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
NWAFA
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:23 am

He allows the tax breaks for the coporations to out source. So yes he is directly involved in it.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
ssides
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:28 am

He allows the tax breaks for the coporations to out source. So yes he is directly involved in it.

If you're talking about the tax on foreign earnings, (1) that's been in place for about 30 years, and (2) it doesn't affect this type of work. It would only apply if these companies were headquartered in foreign countries. Please, if you can, show me a place in the tax code where companies are specifically encouraged to outsource. And, show me either (1) where Bush is responsible for it, or (2) that the Democratic party was diametrically opposed to it.

"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
ACAfan
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:36 am

I personally don't care where airlines do their maintenence. But if the Democrats want to make this an issue, they should not focus on something trivial like tax breaks for companies that do this or that.

Propose a law that requires USA carriers to have all maintenence done in the USA.
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:37 am

Ssides,

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I am hoping for an answer too!

And honestly, sometimes they way we act here in the States, it's a reality check when you go to a place like El Salvador and see people that really appreciate the fact they have a job.

GreatChecko

[Edited 2005-01-21 22:42:14]
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
Zone1
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:48 am

This was on the front page of the WSJ today. I skimmed the article. The article states that faulty outsourced MX caused a commuter plane crash in the Carolinas a few years ago. Does any one know about this one? I think this could be a developing problem, since the FAA doesn't license MX workers from outside the US. There needs to be some more oversight here.

NWAFA: Do you honestly think increasing taxes will make companies not outsource anymore. If you think through it you will realize that they would be forced to outsource even more.
/// U N I T E D
 
richierich
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:50 am

If maintenance has to be "insourced", then what about Reservations? Customer Service?
None shall pass!!!!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:52 am

"The article states that faulty outsourced MX caused a commuter plane crash in the Carolinas a few years ago."

That was outsourced to American MX no?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
PDPsol
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:54 am

ACAfan,

Propose a law that requires USA carriers to have all maintenence done in the USA.

Why in the world would our legislators ever contemplate ratifying a law to prohibit maintenance and repair outsourcing?

I read the article in today's Wall Street Journal about outsourcing aircraft repair and overhaul and can say the FAA as well as local aviation authorities monitor the operations of these facilities very carefully.

There is a very simple law in economics called 'arbitrage'. Repair and maintenance outsourcing is simply a clear manifestation of the economic incentives created by discrepancies [economists would call it inefficiencies] in the labor market.

What benefit would it serve our society to prohibit an outsourcing of aircraft repair and maintenance? It is obvious who would be hurt by the ratification of such a short-sighted law; the millions upon millions of our fellow traveling Americans.
 
Zone1
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:55 am

I'm not saying that all maintenance must be insourced but there needs to be some more oversight over what is going on in El Salvador with these planes.
/// U N I T E D
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:58 am

If we are talking about the Air Midwest crash in Charlotte, from what I am reading the MX was outsourced to Raytheon. The accident report cites improper rigging of the elevator as one of the causes for the crash.

I'm still looking for info on this however.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
mt99
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:02 am

The article states that faulty outsourced MX caused a commuter plane crash in the Carolinas a few years ago.

That is dumb reasoning. I mean how many crashes have been caused after insourced MX?..

What would happen if "Hanes" didnt outsource? How much would you be paying for your underwear? 10 or 20 times? Could you afford $20 boxers?

Why would you want your countries resorces to go to underwear production, when you can put them to better use in high tech companies?

Granted, aircarft MX is step above underware, so its up to the country to train these mechanics that are loosing their jobs to the "next" level and shed mediocre jobs somewhere where they are not mediocre.

The failure of the country is not to keep ahead of the curve and expect to continue economic world leadership by maintaing "cottage industries"

http://www.aeroman.taca.com/intro.html

BTW.. I believe that Aeroman has representative of both aircraft manufacturers in their offices at all times..

And think about it.. they cant affort not to be 100% compliant with US regulations.. if they are not then B6 and AW would not send their planes there anymore, and loose their meal ticket.

[Edited 2005-01-21 23:08:08]
Step into my office, baby
 
contrails
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:11 am

I'm not getting into the politics of this issue. My concern about this is a very simple one:

Is this safe? Are genuine parts being used? Is someone monitoring work to insure it is up to standards?

I'm all for saving money, but not at the price of safety.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
737doctor
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:20 am

If we are talking about the Air Midwest crash in Charlotte, from what I am reading the MX was outsourced to Raytheon. The accident report cites improper rigging of the elevator as one of the causes for the crash.

I'm still looking for info on this however.


Here:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/75074/6/

I'm not going to give my opinion again, I made my opinion known throughout that discussion.

Patrick Bateman is my hero.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:23 am

The thing to remember about foreign repair shops is they have to be FAA certified. The certification criteria is just the same as it would be if they were in the US.

In addition, if a carrier wants to use a foreign repair shop, FAA approval is needed. Part of the approval process includes the carrier having an onsite representative present for the duration of the maintenance.

The concept of using foreign repair shops isn't something new at all. It has been going on for quite some time. LH, NWA, UPS, FEDEX are among just a few of the carriers who use foreign repair shops.
Fly fast, live slow
 
richierich
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:23 am

I believe shoddy MX was also an issue in the Alaskan Airlines crash back in 2000....

The point is: there is no point to banning outsourced maintenance.
None shall pass!!!!
 
UA744KSFO
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:26 am

First of all, does every thread have to turn into politics????? I know I have been guilty of this myself, but I'm sick of how often things have to turn political on this forum. Can't we all agree that people in the US (where I am a citizen) ALL have the best interests of the country in mind, but merely disagree on the methods?

As to the topic at hand, it's being done by most airlines now, and has been for some time. It's a result of the global economy, and like it or not, it is a reality. I have no doubt that mechanics in El Salvador can do a superb job on maintaining aircraft. As long as this can be done, it's not going to stop.

Ssides, liberalism is not totalitarianism with a human face, just a method of achieving goals that is different from yours.

Can the political bashing stop, please!!!!!!!!!!
 
HPA320
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:39 am

Guys, just take a look at many of the souvenirs for Bush's second term.

I was yesterday in the USA and saw a documentry in FOX where they were showing that all baseball hats, T-shirts, mugs, etc.

EVERYTHING WAS MADE IN CHINA!!!!!  Wow!

It seems that many manufacturers and many jobs have moved out of the USA.

So...



America West Airlines. 1983-2005. The Journey Continues...
 
jetstar
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:48 am

The probable cause of the Air Midwest crash was determined to be by the mis rigging of the elevator by Raytheon who Air Midwest outsourced the maintenance to.

Raytheon also is the manufacturer of the airplane involved, a Beech 1900 and the maintenance was done by one of their divisions. You would think that the maintenance being outsourced to the manufacturer with access to all their resources would have at least trained their personnel better.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:54 am

What would happen if "Hanes" didnt outsource? How much would you be paying for your underwear? 10 or 20 times? Could you afford $20 boxers?

The price of boxers has changed little if any since Hanes and others began to outsource. The difference is, they can make more competitive bids for super-chains like WalMart, and both can make more money in the process. The end savings to the customer is in the range of $.10 per unit (aka nothing)

He allows the tax breaks for the coporations to out source. So yes he is directly involved in it.

1. He didn't

2. The U.S. stands whole-heartedly for capitalism, an economic theory based on exploting the cheapest labor and materials to create a product that can be marketed and sold for the highest amount. It's macabre, but what's more "American" than outsourcing?

Topic: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Does outsourcing labor really cut cost substantially? Yes it eliminates much of the overhead necessary for heavy overhauls, but the maintenace contractor must squeeze their own profit out of the deal too.

If you have a fleet of 200+ aircraft, which B6 will have at some point, you will have enough aircraft in heavy maintenance at any given point that I would be very suprised if it's more economical to contract it all out... If it were a small fleet, like 30 aircraft, I could see the point but airlines like WN have aircraft in heavy checks everyday...
 
jetstar
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:59 am

I believe that Southwest outsources the major D inspection.
 
ssides
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:59 am

The price of boxers has changed little if any since Hanes and others began to outsource. The difference is, they can make more competitive bids for super-chains like WalMart, and both can make more money in the process. The end savings to the customer is in the range of $.10 per unit (aka nothing)


Retailers like Wal-Mart operate on profit margins hovering around 2-3%. Outsourcing is the lifeblood of their low prices.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
737doctor
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:04 am

I believe that Southwest outsources the major D inspection.

We do 1/4D, 1/2D and 5Y checks in-house.

Skin lap mods, paint and full D checks are outsourced.
Patrick Bateman is my hero.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:08 am

I believe that Southwest outsources the major D inspection.

I'm pretty sure they do-

The higher level of maintenance that our Mechanics perform is known as Heavy Maintenance, commonly called “D” Checks, and there are several levels of maintenance here as well, including Quarter “D,” Half-“D,” and Full “D” Checks. The level of maintenance that is accomplished on these checks would mirror your car going through a major overhaul every 2 ½, five, and ten years, respectfully. The aircraft is inspected by our Mechanics from nose to tail. And as the names of these checks imply, these “Heavy Maintenance” inspections primarily involve detailed inspections surrounding the fuselage, wings, and tail section of the aircraft. These inspections ensure that the structural areas of the aircraft airframe are safe and sound to provide reliable aircraft for many years to come.

http://www.southwest.com/swa_people/040406_swa_people.html
 
737doctor
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:45 am

Yeah don't mind me....I just work here.
Patrick Bateman is my hero.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:03 am

Just to say it explicitly... The outsourced m/x on US 5481 was performed at HTS. Although some might consider West Virginia another country, I don't think that's the sort of outsourcing that we are bemoaning in this thread...or perhaps it is. If the Latin American m/x is safe, what's the problem?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
atmx2000
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:03 am

Another thank you to Bush for having more american jobs leave the country.

Why don't you ask B6's big investor George Soros, bankroller of many anti-Bush campaigns and Kerry backer, to use his money more productively and pay for US based MX for B6?
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:07 pm

Taking the politics out of the outsourcing issue, the reality of the market is that B6 simply doesn't yet have the economies of scale to do maintenance in house. In a few years they will have enough "aged" airframes to keep a shop full. Hey, isn't that when the new Orlando maintenance base opens up? However, a smart airline will still outsource ~1/3 of the work in order to ensure the inhouse shop is "load leveled." Keeping B6 as an example, during September the Florida market absolutely tanks; during that time any airframes near a C or D check should go through their maintenance for the their busy Nov-April "snow-bird" market. I do not know when HP has their slow month, but otherwise everything I've said applies to them to.

As has been noted before, most of the outsourcing is going to US companies. I know that work my boss has sent to Buffalo NY is keeping one little company in the money. Would we rather keep the work in house? Yes! But we also know that come June, the workload in this one area will drop in half and their goes the outsourcing. However, we happen to know that by July the little company in Buffalo will be working for one of our competitors. Classic Adam Smith specialization. It amazes me how much of the chapters on lace production and sewing needle specialization apply to an industry Mr. Smith never saw. (of topic, was Adam Smith ever knighted? Time to google.)

Light Saber.
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
OPNLguy
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:19 pm

>>>I read the article in today's Wall Street Journal about outsourcing aircraft repair and overhaul and can say the FAA as well as local aviation authorities monitor the operations of these facilities very carefully.

Local aviation authorities (city? county? state? who?) don't have the jurisdiction. As far as the FAA, they are overworked and understaffed, and they did a really great job of monitoring SabreTech's work for ValuJet, not..
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
wbmech
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:50 pm

Doesn't the work have to be done by certified mechanics? If that's the case, why would there be a problem doing it in El Salvador?

This is where the problem lies. At many of these repair stations do not have to have a certified mechanic do the work. As long as the work gets signed off by a certified mechanic saying that the work was done correctly, anyone can do it. Thus you get a untrained, unqualified people doing work that is sometimes signed off by the mx rep without even seeing it being performed. And if you read the WSJ article, it also mentions that at some repair stations that the workers tend to be more transient and less well-trained than at the airlines. My other complaint against foreign repair stations is do their employees face the same security scrutiny as those in the US? It would be a prime target for terrorists to infiltrate to place explosives to be detonated later or even simply sabotage American aircraft.
 
flyabunch
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:09 pm

Taca, is a major operator of 320 series aircraft. The work is being done at their headquarters in El Salvador. I travel their often on business and I have seen the aircraft of many other airlines there being worked on by Taca machanics. Based upon the high level of service and aircraft maintenance that Taca achieves with their own planes, I would have no qualm with work done there.

In addition, if you really want to throw some politics into the mix. El Salvador is one of the countries that has supported the US efforts in Iraq with troops to back it up.

They are an ally of the US and any work that a US company does there has my support.

Mike
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:28 pm

I believe shoddy MX was also an issue in the Alaskan Airlines crash back in 2000....

Not so much MX's fault as it was the design of the part (pump type object, for the hydraulic fluid to turn the rudder) from McD-D.

Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
flyboyaz
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:45 am

Whatever works is fine with me, though it seems like a long ways to send a plane to get fixed!! We often have them stop in TUS on the way back to clear customs.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
GMUAirbusA320
Posts: 203
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RE: B6 And HP Outsourcing MX Work To Latin America

Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:06 am

"Another thank you to Bush for having more american jobs leave the country."

I hate GWB as much as the next guy but he doesn't have anything to do with this per say.

B6 & HP are both trying to conserve money. Who cares if it's going to France, South America, or Bangladesh. Just give me a cheap seat and a safe place to fly...I'll be fine. You can thank Congress' dependency on foreign lobbies to ensure the US buys FOREIGN OIL!! Or thank congress for the $hitty environmental policies "established". More money needs to go for finding new energy sources. We're just not doing enough of it.

BTW-Our industry is HEAVILY protected by Bush and those cronies in DC. He's allowing our companies in the industry to get BIG bailouts and not allowing for the most effective free-market system to take place. Not to mention, has expanded the role of government during his administration.

Thank your friends who didn't vote, or thank your friends that voted for him. I'll be the candidate for something someday...just watch. Instead of watching it happen, DO SOMETHING. No, I don't know you, just get up and do it (if you haven't already).

We have nothing to complain about. WE VOTED IT AMERICA (by elected congressional members or senate...and even PRESIDENT)!! That's the second time I had to put it up there.

Cheers,
GMUAirbusA320

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