FLY777UAL
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UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:35 am

Posted in the SFO Domicile today--UA is to return to India, thanks to additional economic growth!

Going to get more details...

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:52 am

Maybe this time they could finally get around to ORD-DEL nonstop... that'd be shweet in sooo many different ways  Big thumbs up
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ORD747CLE
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RE: UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:29 am

I think this topic comes up every 4-5 weeks. Been waiting a few years for the UA press release.

Ord747Cle
 
Zweed
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RE: UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:31 am

There's a heavy demand on flying USA - India.
I believe all the outsourcing to India has it share in that!
 
karan69
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RE: UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:44 am

I think that they will probably do SFO/LAX--NRT--HKG--BOM/DEL

BOM would def be a better decision as it has no non-stop service to HKG

Otherwise this routing could be picked up by Skyteams--NW/DL
 
stealthpilot
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RE: UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:52 am

doesnt CX fly BOM - HKG ?
-Nikhil
eP007
 
B747-437B
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RE: UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:55 am

doesnt CX fly BOM - HKG ?

Both CX and AI serve BOM-HKG direct, but neither serves it nonstop.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
ACAfan
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RE: UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:36 am

Why is there no nonstop flights between a super business center (BOM) and a super super business center (HKG)?

And doesnt Cathay at least see the huge market between western USA and India? The strategic location of HKG is like that of EK at DXB in that they have the capability of serving the secondary Indian destinations like Hyderabad and Bangalore and Chennai.

Is it not wise for CX fo have flights to at least Hyderabad and Bangalore from HKG, as these would attract the Computer Commuters from silicon valley?
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
N1120A
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RE: UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:41 am

UA used to serve DEL on the old UA-1/2 RTW flights. The sector was LAX-HKG-DEL-HKG-LAX. That would be very cool, especially if it was more LAX long haul service, as CX currently owns the LAX-HKG market with their w 744s a day. Considering that ORD-HKG and SFO-HKG(and on to SGN) already exist, LAX would be the perfect pacific gateway to get the service. Also, I wonder if they would use BOM this time or if it would be DEL again. They could offer the opposite way from AI (who are doing LAX-FRA-BOM and LAX-FRA-DEL)
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:56 am

Hmmm...they must have made a deal with the pilots, then. When UA first operated the route as part of the RTW, the pilots demanded that fresh water and food be flown in for them, as many pilots were becoming ill from what they were getting in Delhi.

ORD-HKG makes the most sense, and hopefully UA will do well on the route, given the demand.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 2:05 pm

the pilots demanded that fresh water and food be flown in for them, as many pilots were becoming ill from what they were getting in Delhi.

Are you serious.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
LFutia
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RE: UA To India

Sun Jan 23, 2005 2:09 pm

hope we finally see ORD-DEL or something like that!
Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
 
irishpower
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:01 am

If UA decides to fly ORD-DEL then I'd love to see them compliment that service with SFO-Bangalore. With Silicon Valley (or what is left of it) nearby and Bangalore's huge tech center I'd think that there would be pretty good demand. Goa isn't too far away either for vacationers!!!

 
aa777jr
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:05 am

My ex girlfriend works for the UN and getting to BAN was a 30 flight that took her through AUS-ORD-LHR-CDG-BOM-BAN. I'm sure the next time she comes home or goes back, she'd love to fly AUS-SFO-BAN only on UA.

Regards,
AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
irishpower
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:19 am

I was just on the "great circle mapper" web site and SFO-BLR is 8718 miles so UA would have to order the 772-LR in order to make the trip.

I don't see that happening for a while!!!!
 
aa777jr
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:22 am

Irishpower,

That is crazy, I don't see UA doing that either. If they decided to fly SFO-BLR, where would they stop?

regards,
AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
roseflyer
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:26 am

West coast to India nonstop is a little bit beyond what any US airlines are capable of. Connecting in SFO to get to a city like BLR or anywhere in India isn't really convenient option. The west coast is almost exactly 180 degrees around the world from India. The east coast is closer. People in the west coast have the option of going either through Europe or Asia. As of now they both have their positives and negatives. For the most part Europe is easier since there are better connections available.

A nonstop from ORD, NYC or another big US city in the eastern half of the country, is the most likely nonstop to happen by any US carrier as a 744 or maybe a 772ER could do it (though twins over the Himalayas become an issue). ORD has connection opportunities to basically every city in the United States. However I am surprised it would be ORD-DEL since AC already does YYZ-DEL and has a share of transitting US passengers, but that doesn't mean it is impossible. It is good to see all these rumors keep coming up. More buzz in the country will hopefully lead to a nonstop flight to India, which is something that there is definitely a market for.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:28 am

Are you serious.
regds
MEL


My Dad was serious when he told me that a few years ago. He was a mechanic for UA at the time the flew into DEL, and what he learned internally was that the pilots were having problems with the food and water, and demanded that UA provide it for them, or they wouldn't fly the route. Possibly one of the reasons why UA dropped their RTW segment?
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
N1120A
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:28 am

>If they decided to fly SFO-BLR, where would they stop?<

Well, lets see. Where does UA have a name and some O&D? Could it be NRT or HKG? Given the slot problems at NRT, HKG would seem to be it.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
airgeek12
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:37 am

Very cool. Not sure if they will actually do it or not, but very cool. So they would probobly be flying a 747 into there, right?
 
irishpower
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:39 am

Guys, I was just say that I would LIKE to see SFO-BLR--I didn't say it would happen. I have always figured that a SFO-India service would do well because

A. There is a large Indian population here in the bay area
B. The Silicon Valley-Bangalore connection
C. There isn't any competition on the route

Now I'd prefer to see a non-stop but that isn't possible with UA's fleet right now but if they flew via HKG,TPE or NRT initially I think it would work!!!

 
jacobin777
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:05 am

I think if UA could pull this off, it would be a good money maker..as they would be the only air carriers flying nonstop to the Indian subcontinent from the US of A.....that being said, I wish AA would do something about it, but maybe they are going to be ETOPS restricted.....?
"Up the Irons!"
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:04 am

In theory AA could do JFK-BOM with their 656K 772ERs (JFK/ORD-DEL is at this point out of the question), but would be tough to demand the yield required to sustain such a nonstop when AI will offer it so much cheaper, with a short stop being the only 'price' paid.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
FA4UA
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:13 am

My Dad was serious when he told me that a few years ago. He was a mechanic for UA at the time the flew into DEL, and what he learned internally was that the pilots were having problems with the food and water, and demanded that UA provide it for them, or they wouldn't fly the route.

I've worked LHR-DEL at least a dozen times last time we operated it and never once was food or drink an issue. DEL isn't the only place where we shouldn't drink the tap water. As flight attendants and pilots we're used to not drinking the water in foreign destinations. The resort that we layed over at in DEL always provided us as much Evian as we wanted and the food was fantastic!

The decision to close a route has to do with safety, security, and of course revenue.

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
cjuniel
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:18 am

I will pose my first question to ConcordeBoy since he seems to be fairly knowledgeable......would United be able to fly the route nonstop from either O'Hare or Dulles using a 744 (since a 777 is out of the question due to restrictions on twins flying over the Himalayas).

Also, if the route is possible nonstop, wouldn't it make more sense to fly the service nonstop out of Dulles, providing one stop connections for O'Hare, San Francisco, etc? Seems that would be a good way to maximize the potential profit for the route. I know the US - India market is HUGE and grossly underserved.
 
JoFMO
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:47 am

Due to the fact that UA already sold tickets for their coming nonstop ORD-DEL with a 744, I suppose it must be flyable nonstop.
But how about a nonstop SFO-DEL? Can a 744 fly it nonstop?
 
timz
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RE: Twins

Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:53 am

"(since a 777 is out of the question due to restrictions on twins flying over the Himalayas)."

Tell us about this. Where exactly are twins not allowed? Who prohibits them? How long have they been prohibited?
 
N1120A
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:59 am

>Tell us about this. Where exactly are twins not allowed?<

Over the taller parts of the Himalayas

>Who prohibits them?

International Aviation Authorities

>How long have they been prohibited?<

As long as they have had regulations

>But how about a nonstop SFO-DEL? Can a 744 fly it nonstop? <

On an extreme polar routing, yes.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
gigneil
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:01 am

Twins have never been allowed to fly over the Himalayas. You might want to search Tech/Ops for more information, since this isn't really the right forum.

But how about a nonstop SFO-DEL? Can a 744 fly it nonstop?

Probably, but not with a great payload. If it could be done, you'd think a host of carriers probably would have been operating it by now (since Silicon Valley and India have strong ties).

ORD-DEL is about 200nm closer. Its actually closer than IAD-DEL.

N
 
N1120A
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:05 am

>Probably, but not with a great payload<

SFO-DEL is in between the distances on LAX-SYD and LAX-MEL. The restrictions taken by the 744 non-ER on those routes were minimal, and certainly not enough to make QF give up LAX-MEL (now unrestricted with the ER)

SFO-DEL 6697nm
LAX-SYD 6507nm
LAX-MEL 6883nm
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
gigneil
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:10 am

The restrictions taken by the 744 non-ER on those routes were minimal, and certainly not enough to make QF give up LAX-MEL (now unrestricted with the ER)

LAX-MEL took pretty heavy restrictions, actually. It still worked out for QF, but they were thrilled to be able to have the ER on these routes.

N
 
N1120A
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:20 am

>LAX-MEL took pretty heavy restrictions, actually.<

Not enough to make the route unprofitable.

>they were thrilled to be able to have the ER on these routes.<

Who wouldn't

Still, the route is almost 200nm shorter than LAX-MEL and does not go over as much water. Sure, the route may go over some pretty naked areas of Siberia, but there are airfields there. Since the restrictions came into play when weather did not play right on the LAX-SYD flight and alternates were farther apart, this route would be easier in many ways.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:47 pm

My Dad was serious when he told me that a few years ago. He was a mechanic for UA at the time the flew into DEL, and what he learned internally was that the pilots were having problems with the food and water, and demanded that UA provide it for them, or they wouldn't fly the route.
I dont think Flying crew drink anything less than Packaged water during Trips.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:29 pm

would United be able to fly the route nonstop from either O'Hare or Dulles using a 744

In a word, yes. In fact, they planned ORD-DEL with a 744 a few years back, but it never came to fruition.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
IndianFlyboy
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:46 pm

As Concordeboy said , UA was planning the ORD-DEL route pre 9/11. The route was payload restricted and flew almost over the north pole using Polar 1. UA was in talks with iridium to provide radio coverage over the 82nd parallel. UA had also planned to use 744's with P&W engines for this particular route.
UA 1 and 2 which were the round the world flights , were pretty good earlier , atleast the DEL-LAX routing was pretty fast exxcept for the crappy seats in coach and the fact that HKG-LAX was a good 14 hour flight.

Regards
 
irishpower
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RE: UA To India

Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:24 pm

Hypothetically speaking.......

What about UA flying SFO-TPE-BLR

There are huge tech centers in Silicon Valley, Bangalore and Taiwan.

All UA would have to do is get rights to fly between TPE and India.

I think the loads would be pretty good.

 
mymiles2go
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RE: UA To India

Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:06 pm

FLY777UAL - Did you have a chance to get any more details since your original post?
 
Skyguy
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RE: UA To India

Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:56 am

UA sold seats on it's ORD-DEL flight using B744's which was due to begin in October 2001, with a flight time of 15 hours 25 minutes. 9/11 and its aftermath put an end to that and fares had to be refunded.
UA had a restricted payload flying the LHR-DEL-HKG v/v sector on UA001/002 and the economics just did not make sense so they pulled out while they battled with the authorities.
ORD was chosen over JFK (the obvious choice) since they could easily feed the flight from connections from both coasts and from the south. UA at that time did not have rights to fly to BOM (..and I do not know if they have them now) as they had taken over Pan Am's route to DEL and Delta was flying (and still is) to BOM.
They will probably restart this flight but it's speculation as to when.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
jacobin777
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RE: UA To India

Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:37 am

"UA had a restricted payload flying the LHR-DEL-HKG v/v sector on UA001/002 and the economics just did not make sense so they pulled out while they battled with the authorities"

Skyguy..any reason as to why UA would have restricted payload? The range isn't all too much, especially for a 744

2 segment path: 6522 mi
LHR (51°28'39"N 00°27'41"W) DEL (28°33'59"N 77°06'11"E) 4190 mi
DEL (28°33'59"N 77°06'11"E) HKG (22°18'32"N 113°54'53"E) 2331 mi

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=LHR-DEL-HKG+&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&MARKER=1&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=
"Up the Irons!"
 
The777Man
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RE: UA To India

Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:43 am

Jacobin777: The recstriction was due to governement ie UA was not allowed to carry close to 400 people between the Hong Kong and DEL. Possibly there was a similiar restriciton between the UK and DEL for UA. UA originally had 763 fly the LHR-DEL-HKG legs but it was inefficient to have a 763 sit at HKG all day so after some negotiating, UA was allowed to fly a 744 but with capacity restrictions.

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
jaysit
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RE: UA To India

Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:57 am

How much of a capacity increase can the Indian market bear and yet be profitable for new entrants?

AI have doubled their US flights from 2003 (28 weekly flights by summer 2005); Delta will be going daily to Mumbai and Chennai; NW, I suspect, will continue its daily ops to Mumbai. Throw in the increased frequencies to LHR on BA, Virgin and BMI, plus the frequency increases SQ has planned for the Indian market, and I am curious if there is a place for UA right now.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Skyguy
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RE: UA To India

Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:33 am

The777Man is right. The bilateral UK/India air treaty and the agreement with TG/BA/AI & AC who flew the LHR-DEL route back in 1995/6 dictated strict pax loads on the flight. I was on the LHR-DEL UA flight and on check-in told that it was full and they were looking to offload pax, when I boarded the 763, there were rows and rows of empty seats. I asked the F/A about this and he said that BA & AI would check the headcount to ensure that UA did not carry more pax than agreed with them, hence there were empty seats even though the flight was 'full'.
There is still enormous demand for seats both inward and outward bound from India. India's burgeoning economy, the expansion of tourism, the returnin/visiting NRI's are all reasons that the Indian market will continue to grow unabated and will have sufficient demand for new entrants to fill capacity to the max. There are reason's why airlines like BA, LH, AF & KL have very high load factors and they all fly daily flights to India.
The challenge is to have point-to-point routes and feeder connections to smaller cities in India. There is definite market which AI is trying to exploit of flying from Bangalore and Ahmedabad to Europe/US without having to initiate the flights from the usual DEL/BOM, hence AI's aggresive plans to expand its fleet over the next 2-4 years.
If UA were to return to India with no capacity restrictions (which there should not be given that India & US just recently negotiated a new agreement), they WILL be able to fill a 744 to capacity.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
gigneil
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RE: UA To India

Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:46 am

; Delta will be going daily to Mumbai and Chennai; NW, I suspect, will continue its daily ops to Mumbai.

Delta and Northwest will be going twice daily to Mumbai.

N
 
B747-437B
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RE: UA To India

Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:56 am

Delta and Northwest will be going twice daily to Mumbai.

Both carriers' second daily flight is seasonal winter only service.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
iowa744fan
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RE: UA To India

Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:44 am

I will pose my first question to ConcordeBoy since he seems to be fairly knowledgeable......

Oh man, don't help to swell the ego more!  Smile Just kidding Fred. Had to poke a little fun at you!  Smile


UA at that time did not have rights to fly to BOM (..and I do not know if they have them now)

Does the new open skies agreement between the US and India guarantee that any carrier can start the service when it wants to, or do they still have to get slots into DEL, BOM, BLR, CCU, MAA, or wherever granted to them first? How easy would it be to start service to one of the first three?
 
jacobin777
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RE: UA To India

Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:01 am

The777Man and SkyGuy..thanks for the info mates......load of bullocks if you ask me though...if UA have the landing slots, they should have the right to "fill 'er up".....how would/will UA make a profit then? Would non-stop ORD-DEL/Bom/etc. be the best way to go then?
"Up the Irons!"

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