rwylie77
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Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:03 pm

Now the 757 line has closed, will the 767 line close soon as well? Surely there are not too many airlines that will buy new 767's now rather than wait until the 7E7 or A350 is released...especially as there are so many used 767's available out there as a stop gap?
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:36 pm

I think the line is awaiting the USAF order for the KC-767... If this deal goes to the KC-330, I think the line will close.

Hope this helps!

Cheers!
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col
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:13 pm

Sorry to say that military contracts will only keep this line open.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:20 pm

The line can't close. The KC-767 isn't the only military aircraft out there based upon it.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:19 pm

Rwylie77

Passenger 767's are still coming off the line, though, very little. There are non US 767 tankers that are on the order, and of course, the potential US Air Force 767 tanker program.
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United_fan
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:30 pm

I was wondering about the -200 series . I know Boeing reopened it for CO,but have any more been produced after CO's run ? I doubt it.
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Tan Flyr
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:45 pm

The 200's are/were built on the same line as all other 767's. There is only one 767 line. The 767's are built at Everett and the 757's were built at Renton.

Didn't Boeing get a recent order from JAL for a few 767-300's (as I recall?)
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:12 am

They are waiting on the tanker program green light or red light before they close the line for good. We should kno within a few months.

According to Boeing's website, there are still a few 767 to be built yet.
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mauriceb
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:35 am


Didn't Boeing get a recent order from JAL for a few 767-300's (as I recall?)

yup 7 300ER's with delivery from 2006 , but i think they cancelled it when they orderd the 7E7, not sure though.
 
Thrust
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:44 am

The only reason I can see the 767 line remaining open is for military purposes. It probably will close down by 2009 is my guess, as most airlines have quit ordering it. The 7E7 is going to kill the 767 orders anyway.
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kim777fan
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:41 am

I would say that the A330 has already done that.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:44 am

The E-3 kept the 707 line open for ages past the last civil delivery. The E-10 will do the same here. Even if it's not a 1:1 replacement for the E-3/E-8/EC-135, it may still account for >50 orders.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:59 am

"If this deal goes to the KC-330..."

You funny guy, Joe...

USAF and the A330..... that would never happen.
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gigneil
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:51 am

I wouldn't hold my breath on any of this. The 767 has 25 frames to deliver.

When they're gone, if there's no military tanker order, the line will close.

N
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:03 am

You funny guy, Joe...

I am, don't I? Big grin

Never say never is the motto!

(However, I don't think it's likely)

Cheers!
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adrianw
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:49 am

KC-330?? 3rd that. I would like the 767 line to stay open. They are good planes.
 
acvitale
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:56 am

I know of at least two airlines that are considering at least 11 new 767-300ER 412K MTOW variants with PW power (4062). I would expect an announcement within 90 days
 
deltaamtrak058
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:05 am

the 762 ER is still on the assembly line at boeing...but so far no new orders...
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dan2002
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:35 am

the 762 ER is still on the assembly line at boeing...but so far no new orders...

The 762ER doesnt have its own line, all of the 767 series are produced on one line, just like the 737NG series and 757(was).

-Dan
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Dimsum
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:41 am

I was down in Everett for a tour in early september and there was a freshly painted JL 763 sitting outside. However, I didn't see the reg on that a/c. Does anyone know when it was delivered and how recent JL ordered it? I also saw the AF and JL 773ER's ready for delivery on the same lot.
 
richie87
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:09 pm

I can't really come up with any objective, technical, market-value, A vs. B, continuance of military-contract orders, or anything else other than this:
I simply LOVE the B767. It's always been my favorite for int'l travel, and I really like the coach seating arrangements in the things. I have been on most models at one time or another, and spent about 4 hours on a Delta -400 series, which I gather only DL and CO ordered. Pity. Well, I guess there are more efficient birds out there, and better ones on the way, but I always thought that was one of the best planes Boeing ever came up with. In my humble opinion....  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Carpethead
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:04 pm

JL ordered 7 more in in 2004 or 2003 and all will be taken by end of Fiscal year 2005 in Japan, so March 2006. Not sure of the status on NH's remaining 763ERs. There is one or two more 763ERs for Ethiopian but that's about it for civil orders. JASDF has 4 767 tankers on order but with delivery probably commencing late this year or next. I believe there is an order for Italian AF 767 tankers too.
It simple, "No USAF KC-767=good-bye 767-line."

Lastly, I too love flying on the 767, but it's just that all good things must come to an end.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:26 pm

which I gather only DL and CO ordered.

Actually, they're two among five companies which ordered.... they are, however, the only carriers to take delivery of any 767-400 variant.
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:13 pm

Again, DL and CO are the only airlines to order the 767-400. I will reiterate that USAF will acquire something like 50 767-400ERs.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:11 pm

It would be sad if the B767 line shuts down if the Tanker deal does not get through.
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American 767
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:28 pm

Kenya Airways would have been the third airline, and probably the only non US operator, to order the 767-400 if they went for it. I remember they were considering buying a few of those, but they chose instead the 300ER and the 777.

Yes, that's true. Japan Airlines and Ethiopian are the only two airlines having 767's in PAX config, 300ER's, waiting to be delivered. There are not that many orders to be filled, but the 767 production line is still open for all three variants, 200/200ER, 300/300ER and 400ER(there is no 400 non ER). As mentioned, Continental ordered 10 brand new 767-200ER's in the late 90's, a while after the last of the 200 Series aircraft had been delivered. American still has a few 300ER's on option but I don't think they'll convert any more of those to firm orders because they have been struggling financially, to avoid filing for bankruptcy, and now there is the all new 7E7. However you never know, they can still convert a few option to firm orders, if the economy shapes up and they need additional aircraft before the first 7E7 is available. It doesn't look like the civilian 767 in PAX config will continue to be built once all current remaining orders are filled. In that case, Boeing will officially announce the end of the 767 production line once all military variants are built.

The Boeing 767 holds the distinction of being the first aircraft to be approved by the FAA for ETOPS flights, in other words overwater operations.


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blackknight
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:49 pm

Looks like an Airbus USAF Tanker is not as far out as some may think?

State to bid for air tanker factory
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
January 24, 2005

New Mexico will submit a bid for a $600 million air tanker factory proposed by the parent company of Airbus.

http://www.abqtrib.com/albq/bu_local/article/0,2565,ALBQ_19838_3493707,00.html
BK
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:53 pm

American 767

I thought that Turkmenistan is getting some 767-300ER's? When I was up in Seattle in September, there was a Turkmenistan 767 about 3/4 of the way from being completed???
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:20 am

BlackKnight:

It is, of course, a contingent bid. The magic eight ball says "highly unlikely."
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
blackknight
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:35 am

Normally I would agree N328KF, but Senator McCain who is getting ready for a Presidential run in 2008 has made it his personal responsibility to correct. Like a presidential poster...I fixed the tanker deal and brought our allies closer together vote for me.....

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2002130791_mccain26m.html

Sorry I usually never talk politics and airplanes together, yet Senator McCain is using this to get elected.
BK
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:40 am

BlackKnight:

You are one of these people who has misstaken McCain's penchant for fiscal responsibility with that of favoring Airbus or disfavoring Boeing. Perhaps (but not definitively) you are also one of the people who has mistaken McCain's maverick conservatism for moderation or even RINO status.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
blackknight
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:54 am

Look no politics please these are the facts:

1- The US has offended many EU countries over the past few years.
2- Yes Boeing cheated.
3- Senator McCain is being pushed to run for President.
4- Whom ever runs for the next President will need an excellent foreign policy plan. Or a way to repair relationships.
5- Search goggle news, Senator McCain has made it clear from the start that He did not approve of the Deal before there was any issues. There are many references from 2002 thru current.

? What would bring our allies more close than a tanker deal politically speaking?


BK
 
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:58 am

MidnightMike, Turkmenistan has indeed one 767-300, registered EZ-A700, but that particular aircraft is meant for government official transport purpose only. I was referring to regular PAX 767's only. It must be the one you saw last September in Seattle because the month after it was already finished and, fresh out of the factory, getting ready for VIP transport.
The other three Boeing models they have, 717, 737-300 and 757-200, are configured PAX service. They have also Illyushin IL-76's for freight hauling.
Thanks for your comment.

Ben
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:17 am

Boeing 767:

I will reiterate your misinterpretation of McCain's political stance. He has shown a distinct tendency to not do exactly the things you're hopeful he will do (about trying to curry favor with Europe by handing them a sweetheart tanker deal.)

His disapproval of the deal doesn't mean he won't let Boeing have it eventually. He was unhappy with the terms of the deal. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't permit new arrangement for the same aircraft.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
gigneil
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:55 am

Perhaps (but not definitively) you are also one of the people who has mistaken McCain's maverick conservatism for moderation or even RINO status.

"Maverick" conservatism?

What makes him different is that he's actually a conservative, not just a Republican. That makes him a "moderate" Republican.

He supports small government and increased civil liberties.

N
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:12 am

Gigneil:

I'm all for that. In fact, I'm an ardent McCain supporter...which is why I keep stressing what BlackKnight doesn't seem to understand—that Boeing's failing with McCain cannot automatically be assumed to be to Airbus' gain.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
daedaeg
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:18 am

It is my understanding that a decision on the 767 line will be made before the summer. A decision has to be finalized so that the factory can begin to make preparations for the 7E7 and 777 moving lines. Remember the 7E7 production begins next year. Wow!
The chance of Airbus receiving the USAF tanker contract is almost nil. If Airbus gets the KC-330 deal, I'm buying everyone on this forum a drink.
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LifelinerOne
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:57 am

If Airbus gets the KC-330 deal, I'm buying everyone on this forum a drink.

Well, than let's set a date and time! Big grin

Nah, I don't think it's going to happen either, but than again... We're not making the calls here.

Cheers!
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hoya
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:18 am

Let's not forget that Boeing did receive 9 orders for 767s in 2004, so orders are still trickling in. Orders for 2004, all unidentified, consist of 3 767-300Fs, 3 767-300ERs, 2 767-200ERs(tankers?), and 1 767-400ER(E-10?). So there are a total of 25 outstanding orders still left.
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blackknight
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:04 am

1st I agree that a A330 tanker is a long shot
2nd I am only surprised at the level of activity Airbus has done if they have not been given some hope.
Check out
http://www.usatanker.com/index.jsp
This is an Airbus website.
BK
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:27 am

BlackKnight:

It's all marketing at this point. Airbus wants you to think that they're as ready as possible. They'd probably like to even give the impression that A330s could roll off the assembly line here any day now.

Don't drink the kool-aid.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
NW7E7
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:49 am

If USAF ordered some 767's they would go for the -400 variant because of the added capacity, comparable to that of the KC-10. It would be great if they ordered about 200 and I would be able to fly on one.

The Air Force has over 200 KC-135's in Active Duty and over 200 in the National Guard, with a few in the reserves. That is alot of planes to replace but since the KC-135 is very small compared to a 767-400, not as many will be needed.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:56 am

If USAF ordered some 767's they would go for the -400 variant because of the added capacity, comparable to that of the KC-10

No, they would not.... the 764ER are to be ordered for the E10 platform... I doubt the 764ER has the uplift to carry dense payloads over a long distance...
 
whitehatter
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:01 am

I'm all for that. In fact, I'm an ardent McCain supporter...which is why I keep stressing what BlackKnight doesn't seem to understand—that Boeing's failing with McCain cannot automatically be assumed to be to Airbus' gain.



I would say it's like this

Just because it's a bad dealership doesn't mean it's a bad car.

The KC-767 should be the winner, once the deal is straightened out. Those responsible for the problems are either history or in jail. I can't see it going any other way than the 767 as it's the right plane for the job. I did a detailed reasoning in the military forum and stand by it, the A330 is potentially not going to be as resilient in a wartime/nuclear environment due to its reliance totally on electrical flight controls.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
blackknight
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:29 am

Just because it's a bad dealership doesn't mean it's a bad car.

Really would you by from a bad dealership?

Boeing is broken and I for one hope they recover. Airbus is kicking Boeing tail all over the world why? Senator McCain is on the right track if he moves toward a solution quickly. If he does not then the downward trend for Boeing will continue. I believe in national pride and respect for ones country. The EU has reason to have pride with the A380. Where have we been? This is my point. I am not McCain bashing, I am anti-American from Americans bashing. I expect those from the EU to show pride for Airbus. Look what happens when they all pull together. Yes Boeing is in need of repair, talking about it will not fix the problem. Where are the reforms and fixes to the problem? A fair solution would to begin the process again with Airbus and let the chips fall where they may. If Boeing lost as they have been for many years maybe they will wake up. If they don't we will be a world with only Airbus to choose from. Sadly according to the last few orders it mostly has been. Is the 767 really the best solution to the USAF? Wouldn't the 7E7 be a more complete solution with its reduced maintenance costs and resistance to the elements? The 767 is in the twilight of it's life. Any tanker purchase today would be limited to the purchase for afterward the line would be shut down. How many years will the next tanker have to serve? Would a 7E7 or 767 last longer? Remember how the KC-135 came about? How many additional orders came because the line was still open? What was the some of the last of the frame produced? (Military) McCain is on the right track but why only talk about it, we all know the 767 will probably win which makes McCain's effort some what hollow. Honestly what would the best solution be?
BK
 
col
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:14 pm

MaCain stopped the Government from pissing my taxes down the toilet, so good on him. Boeing will probably get the KC767, but at a better deal to the taxpayer.

Is the KC330 a more capable aircraft and better for our forces? The RAF and Australians think so, why? Would it be better for our forces to have a fleet of KC767 and KC330's, with the 330's being assembled in USA. Also, we could put pressure on Airbus to asemble all KC330 for export in USA.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:38 pm

Col:

The RAF/RAAF selection of the A330 MRTT had a lot to do with the fallout from the Druyun fiasco. They cannot be contests considered solely on the merit of the aircraft involved. Basically, those two services saw that the KC-767 program was in for a delay and didn't want to lose any time as a result. That's not the whole reason they picked the A330, but certainly part of it.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
starrion
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:50 pm

The other thing to consider is the cost of ownership. The Air Force maintained the KC-135 fleet by buying tons of ex-civil 707's parking them at AMARC and stripped them for parts. There are already 767's that are being retired from service that have tons of useful spares on them that the KC767 fleet could use. The A330 operators would hardly want to part with their nearly new aircraft for parting out.

The KC767 fleet would also have commonality the the electronic warfare/ radar birds that are based on the 764.

The KC767 would match the KC135 in size and capability with much lower maintainence costs which is what the USAF is looking for.

It is the right plane for the job.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:08 pm

Looks like an Airbus USAF Tanker is not as far out as some may think?

Never happen, no matter how cheap or where it's made. The rank and file do not want anything to do with this aircraft.
 
TransportEng
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RE: Boeing 767 Line - Why Still Open?

Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:13 pm

The 767 has a bit of an image problem in my mind since there's a lot of old ones flying around and I've been in some bad ones. They are a nice size aircraft with impressive range though, and the new ones look good inside too.