DIJKKIJK
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Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:41 pm

Which country has the largest domestic aviation network outside the US?
China ? India? Brazil ? Australia? Russia?
I'm talking about the number of serviceable airports and number of flights here.

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ariis
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:47 pm

Hi there,

I think Japan can compete, at least from the number of passengers and flights point of view (distances are short though).

Best regards
FAO
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hardiwv
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:12 pm

My feeling is:

1. US
2. China
3. Brazil

Rgs,




 
JoFMO
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:22 pm

The EU is number two behind tzhe USA.
 
flymia
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:23 pm

Yea Russia Japan and Brazil have pretty big ones. Also China. What about Australia too Canada?
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DIJKKIJK
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:37 pm

The EU is number two behind tzhe USA

Domestic Flight: A flight that operates between two places located in the same country.


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EGGD
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:41 pm

I would imagine China by quite a way. In the next 20 years I expect domestic air travel in China to be much bigger than US domestic, with 5 times the population and a rapidly expanding economy. Japan to a lesser extent and of course Brazil, but I'd say that China was definitely the front runner behind the US and closing fast.
 
swissgabe
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:42 pm

My Guess goes for Russia, however, China might be the runner-up too ...
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hardiwv
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:45 pm

No way Russia has a bigger domestic aviation market than Brazil. Just look at the fleet for scheduled domestic flights of both countries. Brazil even has a LCC with the biggest fleet of 737NG in LatAm. There are 66 airports in Brazil which received scheduled twin-jets services.

One good indication that Brazil comes second or third is that it has the second biggest helicopter and business jet fleet in the world.

I would agree with the above post: 1st. US, 2nd. China (taking into account that China is closing the gap with the US very fast), 3rd Brazil and 4th Japan or Australia followed by Russia, Mexico and India. Argentina and South Africa also have important domestic markets.

Rgs,


[Edited 2005-01-24 15:54:00]
 
airbazar
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:04 am

If we consider that Aeroflot has the largest fleet in the World, I'd say Russia comes second. One could also argue in favor of the EU since all flights are considered domestic flights within the Shengen zone. Slightly off topic but people need to get used to the new reality of the EU as a single geo-political entity, and less about European countries whic these days is little more than just a label.
 
hardiwv
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:09 am

Aeroflot has the largest fleet in the World

You must be joking....the word's leading three airliners are the US-carrier American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines...anything else is peanuts if you compare to them.

Aeroflot has a fleet of about 80 a/c. If you combine Brazil's TAM and VARIG you already have a fleet of almost 200! LCC GOL has the biggest 737NG fleet outside the US.

Canada also has an important aviation domestic market.

Rgs,


[Edited 2005-01-24 16:25:08]
 
ZRH
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:19 am

Aeroflot HAD the largest fleet of the world. This was in the former Sovietunion. In our days there are many different airlines in Russia and Aeroflot is not as big anymore.
 
Scanorama
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:23 am

EU has the biggest domestic flight market outside the US, followed by Japan.
 
Zweed
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:25 am

The EU market is NOT a domestic market
 
hardiwv
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:26 am

The EU is not a domestic market. What is the biggest EU domestic market? I think Spain.

Japan's domestic market is smaller than Brazil.

Rgs,
 
Scanorama
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:52 am

I like to think EU as one single country, they operate towarding like one.
 
airbazar
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:05 am

Scanorama, I think like you. Th EU market is a domestic market.
ZRH, I stand corrected. I knew that Aeroflot's fleet was once much larger than anything else in the World. I haven't payed much attention as of late.
 
cayman
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:07 am

This is a pretty generally worded thread---but I am sure the 'domestic" Canadian market would well exceed Australia--its a considerably bigger country with more spreadout population-

The question is a little general mind you--
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:40 am

In terms of pax/km, maybe China, Brazil, Canada, Australia and India are on top, but in terms of total pax only, I'd say Japan (HND alone is one of the top airports in the world) followed by...?
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:42 am

This is a pretty generally worded thread

I had mentioned 'The largest in terms of airport numbers and number of flights".
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:55 am

People need to get their facts right, the EU is a single avation entity, but it is not a single domestic market, big difference there. Domestic can only be used when describing countries, the EU is not. Flights between non-Schengen countries are not classified as domestic either, intra-EU yes, domestic no.




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raivavae
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:25 am

France 2003 : 23.031.851 domestic pax + 2.940.828 France-overseas departments + 705.817 domestic overseas = 26.6M passengers
2004 is 2.77% higher.
I was always told that France was the biggest European domestic market, has anyone the numbers for Germany, England and Spain? Has well has Brazil, China and Russia?

Is a London-Glasgow flight, a domestic one? Big grin
a domestic flight is a flight where you don't have to go though immigration, so flight within the shengen area are domestic flights, and are considered here as so by the authorities.
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bobnwa
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:38 am

If the EU is one country, why do they have separate United Nations memberships rather than just one? Does it also mean that there will be one olympic team representing the EU?
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:53 am

Is a London-Glasgow flight, a domestic one

Nothwithstanding the possible presence of Scottish separatists here  Wink/being sarcastic, yes , London-Glasgow is pretty much a domestic flight.



so flight within the shengen area are domestic flights, and are considered here as so by the authorities.

There are no immigration formalities between the schenegan countries because the treaty allows for free movement of people. This does not mean that the international borders have been abolished. So any flight between say Amsterdam and Paris, would still be an international flight, not a domestic one.

If the EU is one country...

No it is not, and never will be.



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cloudboy
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:55 am

Well, considering that in Greece they all marched in as one group, yeah I would bet that in a few years there is one team. Which points out that right now it is hard to tell who is the largest because the world is so unstable right now.

For domestic I would definitely say the EU, when measured against number fo flights and airports. Which is a completely different thing measured by number of passengers. The US has a lot of flights - most of them are small and to many smaller airports. Japan has a lot of passengers, but they are big flights between a few large airports.

China also ranks up there, but as fewer people can afford to fly there, their numbers aren't as strong.

Are you looking for the country with the most airports, the most airlines, or the most travelers? I think you may want to narrow down your question, or it answer is going to be pretty confusing.
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stealthpilot
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:50 am

India???? Hehehehe in 20 years maybe but not now.
Passenger wise of course not, number of serviceable airports by twin jets not close to Brazils 66.
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anthsaun
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:44 pm

I´m just presenting the numbers at Mexico so it can be placed in the world contest.

Airports:
Domestic Service Only............ 29
International Service ............. 56
Registered Landing fields...... 1202
Total Airports..................... 1287

Aircrafts

Commercial (XA license)........................... 1213
Private (XB license)................................ 4885
Official Service not military (XC license)...... 440
Total aircrafts registered in Mexico............ 6538

Passengers (2003)

Commercial scheduled Domestic service............... 38,325,523 pax
Commercial non scheduled domestic service......... 514,422 pax
Private registered domestic flights........................ 312,030 pax
Total pax in domestic flights............................... 39,151,975 pax


So, just numbers from official reports by the Transport Ministry in Mexico for 2003.



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chrisrad
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:31 pm

Year on Year OCT 04 Australia had 38.2 millions passenger movements
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bkonner
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:31 pm

I agree that the European Union (EU) is becoming, or will become, a federal state at one time. I also think this is a very good thing! The individual states of the EU have been giving Brussels more and more of their sovereignty over the past 46 years (especially in the last ten). The twelve states that use the euro have already given up their monetary (and to some extent fiscal) policies to Brussels (and Frankfurt). Each member state's court system is subject to the various European courts, like the Court of First Instance and the European Court of Justice. Members of the EU can live and work where ever they wish in the EU. Americans can not just get up and move even to Canada (a country with a somewhat similar ethnic background, though different historical background). This does not mean that each state in the EU looses its identity because it is a part of the EU. You could argue that the EU is a lot like the United States. There are major differences in the various regions of the US. New England (I’m from Massachusetts) is different from the rest of the country. Except for language, Massachusetts and Texas are as different as Belgium and Greece. But New England is also stronger (far stronger) because it is part of the US. The Netherlands is different from, say, Italy, but it is certainly stronger because it is part of the EU. Each (state/country) does its own thing and is subject to a higher set of laws, set of rules, that Americans or Europeans must live with.

Related to this forum (and the topic), the European Court of Justice ruled in 2002 that Brussels is responsible for negotiating airline agreements with non-member states (IE open skies). Also, airlines that are owned by EU members can fly wherever they wish in the EU (EasyJet, for example, flying internally in France). These are signs of a domestic airline industry. No US carrier can fly internally in Canada. No Canadian carrier can fly internally in the US. But KLM is owned by Air France. KLM can fly wherever it wants to in the EU (with Air France’s permission, I suppose). I can not think of any country that allows another country’s airlines to own more than 49 per cent of their domestic carriers, except in the EU. Again, these are signs of a domestic airline industry in Europe. And I have not even touched the Schengen agreement!

Again I think this is a very good thing!

bkonner
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:44 pm

Ralvalve-For flights from St. Thomas, USVI to the mainland United States, you DO have to clear customs...does that make them international flights, despite the fact that the United States Virgin Islands are, obviously, part of the United States?
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raivavae
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:08 pm

Customs is different from immigration.
 
raivavae
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:11 pm

I would be interested in knowing the numbers of US domestic passengers, anyone knows?
Thanks
 
ViveLeYHZ
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:37 am

Raivavae,

According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics (US DOT), the number of domestic passengers in the US was 587.6 million for 2003. July was the busiest month with 56,215,894 passengers, more than domestic passengers in Canada in an entire year.

My guess is that China with 136 million domestic passengers in 2002 would claim the title for first place outside the US.

ViveLeYHZ
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:47 am

Bkonner, excellent explanation. As far as EU is concerned, it works a lot like a domestic flight to a certain degree. I used to work at SVG and flew through AMS on my way to MSP. Norway and Holland are both Schengen members, going TO Holland, there was no customs or immigration there. However, with Norway being a member of Schengen, but NOT the EU, you will have to clear customs, but not immigration coming from another Schengen country. Any intl flights to and from SVG, would be in the intl terminal, and those leaving to the UK (only non-Schengen from SVG) would be in an enclosed gate area with passport control at the door of that area.
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raivavae
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:36 am

Norway is NOT a Shengen country, neither in EU, does not has Euro !!! That is why you went thought immigration when flying to Stavanger.

Norway (and Iceland) have signed a cooperation agreement with the Shengen states but ARE NOT in the Shengen Area.
Norway is just a Member of, EEE and AELE.
 
Neo
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:53 am

Well, according to INFRAERO's website, the number of domestic passenger in Brazil was:

2003 - 61.3 millions
2004 (jan thru nov) - 64.8 millions

In terms of aircraft movements the numbers are:

2003 - 1.649.312 landings/take offs
2004 - (jan thru nov) - 1.517.244 landings/take offs

Brazil has also the world's busiest route in terms of number of flights between two single airports, which is SDU-CGH with more than 120 daily flights in just oneway.

Rgs,

Neo
 
airgeek12
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RE: Biggest Domestic Aviation Outside The US.

Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:57 am

China or europe probobly.

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