MAH4546
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KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:07 am

Kenya Airways is facing heavey political pressure to end their strong partnership with KLM Royal Dutch in order to start flying to the United States. KLM is not keen on Kenya Airways' beinging its own US services, perfering that KQ feed passengers onto KLM flights through Amsterdam. Kenya Airways plans to launch three weekly flights between Nairobi and Miami in the near future. Article:

http://www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=11572

And to answer the question "why Miami, not NYC?":

1) They are getting financial help from Miami's aviation authority.
2) Miami is a prime tourist destination for wealthy Africans.
3) Kenya Airways hopes to rake in on getting lucrative Miami-South Africa traffic.
4) There is a small but extremely wealthy African community in Miami.
5) The most important reason of all: cargo.
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raivavae
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:22 am

KLM is not flying to Miami ! so it should not be this much loss in passengers for them.
There might be something else if they which to leave.
 
kkfla737
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:24 am

I actually spoke to a few minsiters on my recent trip to India to enquire whether aviation treaties would make it permisable for Air India to extend the Mumbai-Nairobi route to Miami. One it would give me a direct route to India without connecting in Europe, and secondly (and more importantly) it would be great O&D- between the Indian community in South Florida and East African community the flight would be a goldmine, particularly for cargo. Nobody was interested in my suggestions.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:26 am

I have a few questions, just to understand the story better.

What are the deficiencies at Jomo Kenyatta Airport that restrict it from "Category One" status? And what is Category One's significance that KQ can operate to Europe, but not the United States, from Kenyatta without it? Also, the first paragraph makes it sound like the Kenyan government is the one that wants KQ to cut ties to KLM, before they will grant KQ authority to fly to the US.

Does the gov't want KQ to do this because of the opposition from KLM that you mentioned? The article doesn't mention opposition from KLM. I'm not doubting that they oppose said service, just am curious as to your source. Hope I didn't misread the article. Does KQ's agreement with KLM preclude KQ's starting direct service to the US?

What is the difference between the Miami Civil Aviation Authority and the Miami-Dade Aviation department? I had always understood that MIA was run by the city-county gov't, which would mean the latter runs the airport. So what is the Miami Civil Aviation Authority, and where are they getting funding to back Kenya Airways' getting more aircraft for European routes?

If KLM *is* trying to block Kenya Airways from running its own service to the USA, that is, to say the least, not the kind of enlightened attitude towards the developing world, that I have read is supposedly the norm among European nations. Sounds more like the greed often associated with the United States.

Jim
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:39 am

Slightly off topic, but I'm still somewhat surprised that no one French flies MIA-DKR as well


not the kind of enlightened attitude towards the developing world, that I have read is supposedly the norm among European nations. Sounds more like the greed often associated with the United States.

...imagine that  Insane
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miaskies
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:40 am

I think KLM needs to back off this one and let Kenya Airways, this is a great opportunity for Kenya to enter the U.S. market. I know plenty of South Africans here in Miami that would definetly fly this route! Not to mention the many Indians and Asians that live in the South Florida area.
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PA110
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:00 am

MIASkies,
Oh great, condemn KQ to the crappy yields produced by expat Asians and South Africans! Airlines that cater to the ethnic markets are either a) heavily government subsidized, b) losing a great deal of money, c) both!

KQ needs to have a better business plan than to take up the slack of SA's former abandoned routes. Pandering to the small yet vocal South African minority who haven't recoverd from their own national carrier's choice of routes is not a recipe for success.
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bobnwa
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:04 am

If KLM is trying to block Kenya Airways from flying to MIA, What has this got to do do with the Netherlands government? KLM is a private company and does not have to check with the Netherlands government or any government including the French about its business plan.
 
hardiwv
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:04 am

Just one important question:

How many African airlines fly to MIA?

I simply cannot see the market for direct flights Africa-MIA.

MIA is heavily focused on the Latin American market. Interesting enough, many South African pax fly to MIA with SA on the route JNB-GRU and connect onwards to MIA with partner airline RG.

I also dont think KQ would jeopardize its vital alliance with KLM for a three weekly service to MIA. Its AMS gateway is much more important.

KQ achieved much of what it is today because of KL.

Rgs,
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:10 am

the crappy yields produced by expat Asians and South Africans!

...thus proving that you're quite unfamiliar with the MFW-Africa market



Airlines that cater to the ethnic markets are either a) heavily government subsidized, b) losing a great deal of money, c) both!

Tell BA that... since they're getting such "crappy yields" from Iran to Los Angeles.
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ushermittwoch
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:11 am

"2) Miami is a prime tourist destination for wealthy Africans."

Sounds interesting, where can I get some more information on that topic, since it does seem a bit far fetched. I would imagine that there are places nicer and closer than MIA for wealthy Africans to travel, especailly with fewer immigration troubles.
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behramjee
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:12 am

KLM doesnt own more than 50% of KQ so its no position to tell KQ and the NBO govt what it can and cant do. Since KL in anycase doesnt fly to MIA, they have no reason to block KQs entry into that market segment.

Yes KQ is where it is today in large due to KLM and the benefits it has gained from KLs AMS hub but KLM shouldnt try and use that to its advantage by bullying KQ by telling them what they can and cant do as thats total exploitation and uncalled for intimidation!!!

KQ from MIA can mint $$$ as it can get feed from NWA-DL and CO from EWR-IAH-ATL-DTW-MSP etc for its NBO and via NBO Africa bound flights.
 
globetrekker
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:14 am

A question:

Didn't I hear from someone on this forum that KQ was scheduled to be a SkyTeam associate member?

Any news on that?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:21 am

. I would imagine that there are places nicer and closer than MIA for wealthy Africans to travel

I will second that a small but SIGNIFICANT number of wealthy Africans shack up in MIA, with more visiting on vacation/seasonal-excursion...


especailly with fewer immigration troubles.

...you are however correct in this sense. SA added a CPT/JNB-FLL segment to make up for the loss of their Miami operations once Atlanta became their southern USA gateway. That operation was pulled after 9/11 immigration stipulations made it a mandatory deplaning station for all pax.
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hardiwv
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:25 am

Just to add on my reply 8: almost every airline is pulling out of or reducing its flights to MIA, and KQ wants to start direct flights NBO-MIA? If KQ breaks its partnerships with KL and carries out this "crazy" ideas it wont last longer...

Btw, no answer to my question 1: how many African airlines serve MIA? This could indicate quite something....

Rgs,
 
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PA110
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:30 am

ConcordeBoy,
80% of my daily work is dealing with the Africa market (tours, VFR demand and missionary). I am very familiar with this destination. My point was that South African and Asian expats do not generally produce high yield traffic to Africa. They are strictly back of the bus and, on occasion, heavily discounted Business Class. The high yield traffic to Africa is mostly corporate, government and NGOs.

Your example of BA and Iranians flying to LAX is tangential to my point. BA has a very broad mix of corporate and leisure travel, comprised only in part by ethnic/VFR traffic. My remarks were based more along the lines of TG who in the USA have abandoned all sales channels except the LAX ethnic market, and as a result, have had to reduce their frequency due to massive losses.

KQ has received huge benefits from KLM's rather aggressive yield management system. As a result, KQ enjoys a very wide mix of traffic not only on the LHR/AMS routes, but throughout their entire route network. They are not reliant on any greater Kenyan/East African diaspora for the bulk of their traffic. Therefore, I can't see why they would want to chase after what is clearly an ethnic demand for Florida. It makes no sense whatsoever.

[Edited 2005-01-25 23:39:18]
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miaskies
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:57 am

Hardiwv: Almost every airline is either pulling or reducing MIA flights? what planet do you live in?

Only airline that pulled was KLM due to low yields, UA pulled pretty much because of their situation, IB pulled its Mini Hub but still continues to fly MIA-MAD (which is one of the best if not best selling North American Route for IB).

So KLM left and Martinair took over adding even more flights and not to mention the new 738 MIA-SJO Martinair service. AF increased to double daily in the Winter to MIA with 744 and A343 flight..as well as their A320 AF service to PAP and Pointe a Pitre, AZ again upgraded their service to 772ER, Eurofly added FPO-MIA-MXP service with A332, BA flies up to 3 daily 744's to MIA from LHR on select days, LH flies daily 744 from Frankfurt and 3 x weekly A343's from MUC...etc etc etc not to mention the multitude of Latin American Carriers and of course AA.

Back to the topic...if this flight does take off, I think KENYA will see great success!
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MAH4546
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:59 am

MIASkies,
Oh great, condemn KQ to the crappy yields produced by expat Asians and South Africans! Airlines that cater to the ethnic markets are either a) heavily government subsidized, b) losing a great deal of money, c) both!


South Africans in Miami don't produce weak yields. They are extremely wealthy, fly premium classes often, and aren't hesitant to buy a last minute fare for a last minute emergency. Drive through some South Florida neighbourhoods with large South African communities, like Coral Gables, and see why this is a lucrative market.

Again, Miami's African community is small in numbers. Nothing compared to Washington D.C., for example. Though they are extremely wealthy. This isn't your normal low-yielding VFR.

Typicallly, VFR does produce low-yields. Though not always. Colombian and Haitian VFR traffic, more example, are huge moneymakers.

Air France seems to be the airline of choice for most Africans flying between Miami and France, given their extensive African network and the fact that Dakar is probably the most traveled to destination, outside of South Africa.

almost every airline is pulling out of or reducing its flights to MIA,

What are you talking about? We have lost three airlines (ATA, KLM, and DCA, the latter due to bankruptcy) and one non-stop destination (MDW) in the past year or so. We have added Finnair, Cape Air, Santa Barbara, and Aviacsa and eleven non-stop destinations (LIR, SKB, MAN, UVF, BDA, APF, GNV, MTY, RIC, MVD, MUC). Air France, Alitalia, AeroMexico, LAN, Aeropostal, American Airlines, Delta, Lufthansa, and British Airways are among those have increased service/capacity to MIA this winter. Some airlines have reduced service, the most notable being United and Iberia. Most haven't.
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ushermittwoch
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:02 am

"South Africans in Miami don't produce weak yields. "

Well, I would doubt that they would want to fly via NBO though, same goes for people from West Africa, don't you think?
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ETStar
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:06 am

To answer one of the questions above, Nairobi does not have Cat 1 status as the airport is configured in such way that arriving and departing pax are not separated enough to meet US requirements. The same issue existed at Addis Ababa (ADD), but to get around this, Bole airport had arriving pax deplane through stairs with the jetbridge disconnected, and then connect the jetbridge to board departing pax. With the new terminal however, the jetbridges are designed so that they are connected to two different floors of the terminal, the second floor being the arrivals and the third one being departures. I am sure there are other things as well, but this particular point was mentioned in an article a few months back about NBO.

As for KQ serving MIA, I have always been puzzled as to why MIA would be selected by KQ of all other higher yield cities such as New York and Chicago that could cater for onwards traffic. Heck, even Detroit comes to mind, given the fact that KQ and NW are partners by proxy. And then comes the "opposition" by KL for KQ to start services to North America. Where did this come from? Did I skip such paragraph in the article? At any rate, I would not be surprised if this is the case since KQ ended up chopping off all of its European destinations except for LHR and AMS once KL got in the picture. I guess like any other airline, if they take stake in an airline or partner with them, they do so because of specific gains that they would get. They probably get more out of KQ by using it as a feeder, as opposed to the gains related to profits at KQ.

Finally, "many South Africans and Indians will use the route"?!?! Please look up a map and check the relations between South Africa and MIA. If one is to take this route, I can tell you that this person cannot be considered a high-price paying passenger. I have seen Indian pax connecting from god knows where to an ET flight at EWR seated in Economy for 17 hours to get to ADD, layover in ADD for some 5 hours and hop on a flight to Delhi. Now if these people were paying high price, I can guarantee you that they would not go through two other continents to get to their final destination (ET makes a stop at FCO en route). I have also seen LOS bound pax who go to ADD from IAD first, connecting to LOS (go east then west).
 
MAH4546
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:12 am

"South Africans in Miami don't produce weak yields. "

Well, I would doubt that they would want to fly via NBO though, same goes for people from West Africa, don't you think?


Why not?

More hassle free than flying through Atlanta or New York City (no stops in the Cape Verde Islands or Dakar; and no having to get your luggage at ATL or JFK, go through customs, and then get back to the gate to connect).

It is a lot less out of the way than flying through London or Paris.

The timing is a lot better than flying through Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires, which, while flying through GRU is a very popular option, requires a very long layover.
a.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:18 am

"It is a lot less out of the way than flying through London or Paris."

JNB-NBO-MIA : 9751 miles

JNB-LHR-MIA: 10046 miles

JNB-CDG-MIA: 9999 miles

CPT-NBO-MIA: 10489 miles

CPT-LHR-MIA: 10419 miles

CPT-CDG-MIA: 10385 miles

I guess one can debate your statement.
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MAH4546
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:26 am

"It is a lot less out of the way than flying through London or Paris."

JNB-NBO-MIA : 9751 miles

JNB-LHR-MIA: 10046 miles

JNB-CDG-MIA: 9999 miles

I guess one can debate your statement.


It is not about the mileage. Think in terms of flight time.

Miami-Paris is an almost nine hour flight. Paris-Jo'Burg is about an 11 hour flight.

Miami-Nairboi would probably be about a 13 hour flight, and going down to Jo'Burg is about four hours. That sure beats two long-haul flights. And that doesn't even factor in layovers, which are going to be a lot longer in Paris, where you'll arrive jetlagged after an overnight from Miami, and then have to wait until late at night for the redeye to South Africa.

[Edited 2005-01-26 01:33:04]
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ushermittwoch
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:34 am

Well since NBO-MIA is almost 8000 miles plus headwinds (all the way), I am doubting that that flight will be all that short, to be honest.
And the 2500 miles from CPT to NBO are just a tad less then LAX to BOS, which you wouls surely also qualify as a long-haul.
 Smile
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PA110
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:42 am

MAH4546,
Even if I accept your argument that South Africans living in Florida do generate high yield fares, their numbers are far too few to affect the yield mix when you consider the size of aircraft and frequency of service necessary to make the route profitable.

One thing that has been lost in this entire arguement is a key quotation: "The development is expected to cause friction between the Kenya Airways management and the Government which is keen on the opening of the Nairobi-Miami route."

Ah! There you have it! The Government is pushing this route, not the airline. We're talking about one of the most corrupt governments in the world. (Reference BBC report just today regarding the failure of Kenya's president to affect any meaningful reform on corruption). It is however very reassuring that the airline management knows better and does not wish to pursue Miami. Kudos to KQ management!!! Let's just hope they can continue to operate with minimal government intereference.

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MAH4546
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:18 am

their numbers are far too few to affect the yield mix when you consider the size of aircraft and frequency of service necessary to make the route profitable.

So small that before new security rules went into effect after 9.11, SAA moved their tech-stop on CPT-ATL to FLL three times a week to serve the local market.

Ah! There you have it! The Government is pushing this route, not the airline. We're talking about one of the most corrupt governments in the world. (Reference BBC report just today regarding the failure of Kenya's president to affect any meaningful reform on corruption). It is however very reassuring that the airline management knows better and does not wish to pursue Miami. Kudos to KQ management!!! Let's just hope they can continue to operate with minimal government intereference.

All you are doing is infering. I doubt the goverment is pushing establishing a Miami route. They are just pushing establishing a trans-Atlantic route in general. They are very anxious to get KQ flying a trans-Atlantic route, and they couldn't care less if it was Newark, Detroit, or Miami, the three that have been mentioned.
a.
 
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PA110
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:36 am

I still say that KQ has absolutely nothing to gain by opening up direct flights to the USA. They are currently a very well run, efficient and profitable airline, with truly excellent service. Why fix what isn't broken? Does national pride have to always get in the way? WT, RK, GH and QZ all failed. ET still isn't making much money on the route. AT/MS are not really in the same market, which leaves SA who are constantly tinkering with the route to improve performance and yield. PA couldn't make the routes pay - even under in the days of monopoly service. The number of passengers flying to Africa from the USA just don't support a direct service. If the demand truly existed, and the route were so profitable, there would be such service already. The european carriers have the advantage of using overlapping market demands to provide daily (some twice daily) connections to the African continent.
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MAH4546
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:39 am

I agree that there is a very limited market between the US and Africa right now, but I think in the next ten-fifteen years this is a market that is really going to grow.

If the demand truly existed, and the route were so profitable, there would be such service already.

Not with Kenya's category II status.
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flymia
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:30 am

Ushermittwoch: Again it is the connection times in CDG not the miles or hours in air. You will spend almost two days flying to MIA-CDG-JNB
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
hardiwv
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:00 pm

The timing is a lot better than flying through Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires, which, while flying through GRU is a very popular option, requires a very long layover.

Although the lay-over time is considerable, GRU or GIG could be an option to be explored. Maybe an African carrier could negotiate 5th freedom rights Africa-South America-MIA. Here are the options based on the current flights Africa-South America:

SA: JNB-GRU-MIA
TAAG: LAD-GIG-MIA
TACV: SID-FOR-MIA
MH: JNB-CPT-EZE-MIA

Of the above options, SA has the greates potential as it operates daily to GRU with the A346, and GRU-MIA could be easily operated with partner airline RG.



Distance: 8702 mi

TAAG is well established in GIG, operating 2 x week flights LAD-GIG with the B747, and again they could link up with RG from GIG to MIA.



Distance: 8019 mi

Rgs,


[Edited 2005-01-26 10:07:28]
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:53 pm

Well if you work with today's figures, then yes, the wait on the return leg is pretty long, but keep in mind that there is only ONE daily non-stop flight at the moment from JNB to NBO. And it arrives at 3 PM, try getting on a 15 hour flight ( at 4:30 or so) then and arriving on the last plane to MIA.
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MAH4546
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:03 am

but keep in mind that there is only ONE daily non-stop flight at the moment from JNB to NBO.

KQ operates 12 weekly non-stops, SAA operates seven, and BA/Comair operates six.

Of the above options, SA has the greates potential as it operates daily to GRU with the A346, and GRU-MIA could be easily operated with partner airline RG.

Despite the long layover, Varig/SAA is definitley one of the most popular travel options currently between Miami and South Africa.
a.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:11 am

Maybe I should have stated that there is ONE flight that is operated every day of the week at the same time, the kind of thing one would need to compete with the flights via Europe.
 Big grin

And only on four days the schedule would allow a sensible departure time from NBO to JNB (with KQ).
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
hardiwv
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:22 am

Despite the long layover, Varig/SAA is definitley one of the most popular travel options currently between Miami and South Africa.

Maybe SA and RG should work out their schedules so as to allow for pax arriving from JNB to connect to MIA wihtout long lay-overs. I think this route (JNB-GRU-MIA) has great potential.

If SA gets 5th freedom rights GRU-MIA, with its top product A346 and as a Star member, it could do quite well on this route. But I dont think SA will ever get 5th freedom rights from GRU - some years ago RG applied for 5th freedom rights JNB-BKK and the South African authorities refuted the application....

Rgs,
 
keesje
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:29 am

IMO an airline that is doing well because of a partnership should take care not harm that partner, IMO politicians should understand that.

I think good business traffic needs at least 5 frequencies a week. 3 is just not enough.

a few wealthy individuals won´t change that, you need 800 passengers every week.

If KLM/AF pulled out of KQ & they could set up a competing south east African network...

KLM probably moved out of MIA because its partner Martinair is specialized in leisure travel, they are better in it

how much cargo would a 777 carry NBO-MIA with headwind?

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
MAH4546
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:34 am

I think good business traffic needs at least 5 frequencies a week. 3 is just not enough.

Not in this market. Individuals traveling for business between the US (and Europe for that matter) and Africa usually aren't going for a one/two day business stint, they are there for a while. Many European carriers serve African destinations only a handful of times a week (like Luanda, which BA serves only weekly, and Aeroflot serves every other Monday) with no problem.

KLM probably moved out of MIA because its partner Martinair is specialized in leisure travel, they are better in it

Yes, that is why. Martinair was better suited for the Miami market and increased their frequency on MIA-AMS to daily after the pull out.

how much cargo would a 777 carry NBO-MIA with headwind?

Good question. No idea. However, it has been proposed that the flight may have a stop. Amsterdam has been mentioned, but so as western Africa.
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AF022
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:31 am

airlines are DESPERATE for more landing rights at Luanda, but the angolans won't let anyone except SA have more than 1 frequency per week. the yields are strong enough (due to limited capacity) to warrant one daily service, but you cant say that 1 weekly frequency is acceptable because of Luanda.
 
hardiwv
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:36 am

airlines are DESPERATE for more landing rights at Luanda

Your language seems a bit exaggerated...

Although the situation in Angola has improved considerably, I dont see the conditions for improved flights services to LAD. The only airlines flying from Europe to LAD are TP, BA and TAAG. In terms of US-Angola, simply there is no market. I know there is a charter airline flying once a week or so from IAH to LAD, which is purely oil business-oriented.

RG dropped its flights GIG-GRU-LAD during the civil war. It will take some time, and a lot of efforts and improvements in Angola to see the airlines back with scheduled flights in LAD.

[Dont take me wrong. I wish all the best for Angola, it is a country which suffered a lot, and its people are great. But political leaders there need to change....and I do hope that the President steps down as he promised last year...]

Rgs,
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:52 am

The only airlines flying from Europe to LAD are TP, BA and TAAG.

Air France, Aeroflot, and SN Brussels all fly to LAD as well.

the yields are strong enough (due to limited capacity) to warrant one daily service, but you cant say that 1 weekly frequency is acceptable because of Luanda.

I doubt you will be able to fill a daily LHR-LAD flight. I've flown to LAD, and the planes make money filling the premium cabins, but I've never been on a packed flight. You don't travel to Luanda for a two-business trip. You are usually there for weeks at a time.
a.
 
AF022
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:43 am

it is safe to say that if BA or AF could operate 3x/week they would.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:34 pm

it is safe to say that if BA or AF could operate 3x/week they would.

I bet you they probably would. But it is also safe to say that BA and AF have no problem attracting travelers despite only a once weekly service.
a.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:40 pm

I am acutally quite sure that AF would like a daily frequency to LAD in resepct to their Petroleum Club program. Especially with their new A319 longhaul serivces. That would for sure be a huge money maker for them.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
LHSTR
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:09 pm

"KLM is a private company and does not have to check with the Netherland"s government or any government including the French about its business plan."

KLM and AF are organized as a private company, but AFAIK the French government has a pretty large share, if I remember correctly, more than 50%, of the AF stock.

And of course you talk about your business plan with your largest stockholder.
 
AirGAbon
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:17 pm

Now French Government has less than 25% of the AF stock.
 
ETStar
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:15 am

This news article makes the severing of ties with KLM more public, which I find quite interesting. Would KQ give up the luxury of being or getting into one of the biggest airline teams for a meazely 3x per week service to MIA?


http://www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=12240
 
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PA110
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:22 am

I think this reporter may be blowing smoke...

The Miami airports’ courtship with KQ, however, comes at a price. It is understood that Southwell and his team wants KQ to sever its partnership with KLM if the local carrier is to fly to Miami.

Since when do airport authorities dictate the relations between carriers?

It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
Frostbite
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:57 am

Intriguing topic. I agree with MAH, great expansion in the US-Africa market seems likely in the coming years, I'm very interested to see how it develops.

My impression is the key to US-Africa really taking off is a viable hub operation somewhere in *West* Africa. Certainly at present, most any US-Africa service has to be "well-connected" on both sides to be successful. NBO doesn't make much sense as the next African gateway city to the US, it is itself a primarily tourist-oriented market and doesn't seem well-positioned geographically as a connecting point to many other (high-yield) African markets as exist in west/central/southern Africa. Entebbe, Dar es Salaam, Kilimanjaro, these are NBO's nearest neighboring markets and they are primarily tourist destinations also. There's been much reference to high-yield, wealthy (South) African connecting traffic, but is this really substantial enough to make such a flight successful? Viable competition exists in the form of Delta & SAA - service is daily and travel time ex MIA is equivalent or perhaps even less than via NBO (haven't crunched the numbers, and granted SA's services eastbound are no longer N/S). The ATL service *may* shift north but SAA may think wiser than to jump aboard Star with US Airways & UA as their dancing partners in the USA. I'm sure MAH's assertion is correct that cargo would give a major boost on MIA-NBO...but enough to offset costs of a pax-configured 777 if upstairs is largely empty? Might a cargo-only service be more appropriate?

Forgive me for being the proverbial doubting Thomas here, in many ways I would like to see the flight happen (would love to make use of it myself), but seems like KQ is risking a LOT if they bite on this. KQ is obviously among the strongest airlines in Africa, but would running NBO-MIA and dumping their partnership w/ KL play on their strengths? Would hate to see another African carrier (or rather, their goverment) get delusions of grandeur and go belly-up, as so many have. Eager to see what happens in any event.
 
ETStar
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:52 am

Kenya Airways has apparently declined the offer to serve MIA citing nonexistant commercial justification.

http://www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=12379

So, where are all those wealthy Kenyans who vacation in MIA?  Big grin
 
miaskies
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RE: KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA

Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:55 am

I guess KLM beat them hard enough to the point where Kenya yelled "Mercy!!!!"...

3x weekly service to MIA did sound like alot! 1x weekly to start I think I would have been fine...
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!