kkfla737
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TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:59 am

Looking at several old TWA timetables, I surprised to see how many flights at various times TWA offered from LGA and even from EWR. Most of the flights were to Florida, though other cities like Dayton, Columbus and Kansas City were served at times during the 80s from LGA and EWR.

At one point TWA had 5 flights a day from Miami to New York from 3 different airports. In the late 1980s, TWA ran several flights a day from LGA to MIA, FLL, PBI, MCO, and TPA, leaving very little service from JFK. Was the point just to capture the strong market TWA already had in NYC for flights to Florida?

I have noticed that Eastern did similar type flights, not just to Florida (including secondary cities like MLB and DAB) but to cities such as RIC, GSO, and GSP, where they would fly 3 times a day, once from each NYC airport, until the Lorenzo era when everything bascially went from LGA, and EWR was reserved for CO, and JFK was closed outright for both CO and EA for a time.

 
moman
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:23 am

I've been studying TWA history and it amazes me how big they were are various times over their lifecycle.

At the end, did they have an LGA presence? I thought most international departures went from JFK, most domestic connections were in STL.

Moman
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quickmover
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:37 am

I think they ran a seasonal LGA-PBI until the end. Also 8-10 dailys to STL.
 
TWFirst
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:47 am

>>At the end, did they have an LGA presence?<<

Yes. They had LGA-STL (and EWR-STL) right up to the end, also did some LGA-Florida routes up until a few months before the merger was announced.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:50 am

TWA had a fairly decent schedule at LGA in 1977: (all services Mon-Fri, may be reduced Sat and/or Sun. Nonstop departures)

LGA-ORD x13 flights
LGA-CVG x3
LGA-CMH x3
LGA-DAY x4
LGA-IND x4
LGA-MCI x2
LGA-OKC x1
LGA-PIT x7
LGA-STL x5

Total Weekday Departures: 42. Not too shabby.
Next up: STL-CVG-MKE-MSP-STL.
 
WesternA318
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:18 am

I flew TWA on the LGA-STL morning flight the day before the last flight on a 717, then the next day took the last flight. I still have my last flight memorabilia and pics I took. What a sad day indeed.
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jetblueatjfk
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:44 am

They had a presence in JFK pretty much until the end, but then it toned down and by then end it was next to nothing. Then they moved over to West JFK or the AA side/land in with American were they were AA.

What is the official date of when they stopped service and went into AA.

Thanks in advance!

jetBlueAtJFK
 
iowa744fan
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:59 am

TWA operated from ORD-EWR back in 1984! My first ever commercial plane trip...on a 727-200!

 
kkfla737
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:07 am

TWA operated from ORD-EWR back in 1984! My first ever commercial plane trip...on a 727-200!

TWA also had quite a presence at ORD pre 1986 or so. They never should have given that up.....many people forget that while UA was always the undsiputed leader at O'Hare, American was in a fight with TWA, and to a lesser extent Northwest and Republic for the #2 position in the early/mid 80s. Eastern also had a large O'Hare presence, and tried to use ORD as a late night connecting hub (The Moonlight Express) for a year or so in the mid 80s.

 
moman
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:21 am

The date the TWA callsign went to AA was Dec 1, 2001. All TWA flights from this point on were AA 29XX operated by TWA. The transition occured slowly though over a span of about 3 years.

Moman
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STT757
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:47 am

"until the Lorenzo era when everything bascially went from LGA, and EWR was reserved for CO, and JFK was closed outright for both CO and EA for a time."

When the Unions went on strike Eastern shut down all operations for a few weeks, when they started back up they did not restart JFK. JFK operated untill the strike, late 1989.

Eastern then concentrated on EWR, LGA and Islip in the NY Market.

They did not avoid EWR because of CO, up untill their permanent shut-down in January 1991 Eastern was flying three daily nonstops each from EWR to MIA, TPA, FLL, PBI and MCO. As well as twice daily SJU and 1 daily to Ponce Puerto Rico.

TWA's LGA-PBI flights were year round, operated with L-1011s.

TWA in '92 operated nonstop EWR-CDG.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
AeroWesty
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:03 am

Wow, this thread takes me back.

TW had an ongoing presence at all 3 NY airports over the years, often flying one-of-a-kind services. Long before EWR became a hub for PE and then CO, TW seasonally ran daily transcon night coach non-stops (from SFO with a 707 and from LAX with an L10), and for a long time the night coach L10's to JFK from the west would continue on to BOS and IAD (my brain wants to say it was PHL for some reason--I'm nearly 100% sure it was flight 16 from LAX and 44 from SFO, even though 702 sticks in my mind as one of the tag-end flights they flew), and you could transfer to the other flight, or if you were already in NY, just catch a widebody for the short hop instead of being squeezed into the EA shuttle.

LGA was such a popular airport for TW, they regularly flew L10's in from STL. They may have flown the L10 ex-LGA to other points, as I seem to recall there being more than one parked there at times in the morning, but I'd have to dig through boxes to see if I still have timetables from the 80's to confirm that, so don't quote me on it.

And while for sentimental reasons I wish TW would have kept their ORD hub, it really was impractical given they were building up their STL hub post-regulation. Their ORD-west coast flights were the first to leave the schedule starting around 1982.

Cheers  Smile
International Homo of Mystery
 
WesternA318
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:08 am

AeroWesty,

This was about the same time the 707s left the fleet, isnt it?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
airgeek12
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:10 am

That's awesome. TWA was a HUGE airline. They had great customer service also! I have some stories of TWA that I'll have to share later.
 
kkfla737
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:04 am

"until the Lorenzo era when everything bascially went from LGA, and EWR was reserved for CO, and JFK was closed outright for both CO and EA for a time."

When the Unions went on strike Eastern shut down all operations for a few weeks, when they started back up they did not restart JFK. JFK operated untill the strike, late 1989.

Eastern then concentrated on EWR, LGA and Islip in the NY Market.

They did not avoid EWR because of CO, up untill their permanent shut-down in January 1991 Eastern was flying three daily nonstops each from EWR to MIA, TPA, FLL, PBI and MCO. As well as twice daily SJU and 1 daily to Ponce Puerto Rico.


EA still did run flights from EWR to Florida after Lorenzo took over, but IRC they had far more destinations from EWR prior to 1986. On the other hand, many flights were added at LaGuardia- for example cities such as Savannah and Charleston which had service on EA for many years nonstop to JFK, at the time of the 1989 strike were being flown from LGA. JFK was already being wound down at the time of strike. I'm not sure why given EA's traditional strength on domestic routes from JFK.

TWA's LGA-PBI flights were year round, operated with L-1011s.

Interesting. Sad to see those widebodies gone forever on LGA-PBI  Sad

TWA in '92 operated nonstop EWR-CDG.

Great info! I forgot that! That was the same summer that Delta flew EWR-FRA and MCO-ORY. All three were one summer only routes for their respective carriers!






 
September11
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:11 am

New York was TWA's home base. TWA Headquarters office was in NY. When NY operations got thin, they moved office to St. Louis area.

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kkfla737
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:13 am

They had great customer service also!

Yup. When flying a major carrier was actually a pleasant experience. Pan Am and TWA both were great for customer service.
 
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ramprat74
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:25 am

I flew TWA nonstop LAX-EWR every summer in the late 70's and early 80's. We always took the 3pm flight out of LAX. It use to get into EWR after midnight. They always had the lights off in A-3 when we arrived. The flight was either a 707 or L1011.

TWA had flights from LAX to BOS, EWR, JFK, PHL, and IAD when I use to fly them. It was a great site in terminal 3 back then. You could see the TWA hangar and all from the windows.
 
iowa744fan
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:32 am

TWA also had quite a presence at ORD pre 1986 or so. They never should have given that up.....many people forget that while UA was always the undsiputed leader at O'Hare, American was in a fight with TWA, and to a lesser extent Northwest and Republic for the #2 position in the early/mid 80s. Eastern also had a large O'Hare presence, and tried to use ORD as a late night connecting hub (The Moonlight Express) for a year or so in the mid 80s.


They had the only ORD-LHR flight for a while way back then too, didn't they?
 
kkfla737
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:25 am

They had the only ORD-LHR flight for a while way back then too, didn't they?

Yup, that was a signature TWA route- sold by Ichan to AA in 1991 along with JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR. TWA flew that route from the beginning of the jet age I believe all the way until the AA sale. At one time only TWA and BA flew from Chicago to London. Can you imagine- two of the Western world's largest cities linked by only two airlines?ORD-LHR, must have been one of TWA's most profitable routes. And yes, they were the only US airline to fly the route.

[Edited 2005-01-28 01:26:58]
 
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STT757
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:21 am

"New York was TWA's home base. TWA Headquarters office was in NY. When NY operations got thin, they moved office to St. Louis area."

Not NYC proper, rather the Northern Westchester County suburb of Mt.Kisco, the only reason why the headquarters was there was because it was close to the Estate homes of Carl Ichan and his investors in Westchester County and Fairfield County Connecticut.

As soon as Ichan was not associated with the carrier anymore they made the move to St.Louis.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
N62NA
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:21 am

Here were TW's domestic operations at EWR as of July 1, 1976:

ORD-EWR 1x 72S, 1x 707, 1x L10
CMH-EWR 1x 727
DEN-EWR 1x 727
LAX-EWR 1x 707
PIT-EWR 1x 727, 1x 707, 2x DC9, 1x 72S
STL-EWR 1x DC9, 1x 707
IAD-EWR 1x 707

All in all, nothing to get all that excited about for us folks living near EWR at the time (though being able to spot the L10 departure back to ORD the next morning was a nice treat!)

 
firstclasser
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:39 am

I remember in 1998, (March something... I know it was a monday) I went with my dad down from JFK-TPA. It was the "tampa shuttle" or something. Early morning trip. Departed from Terminal 6. On the way back (friday morning 10AMish), it continued on to Boston, I believe. I'm a little nostalgic. Can anyone give me details as to which flights these were? I know they were either a 727 or MD-80 (DC-9 possibly). My first flight ever.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:50 am

This was about the same time the 707s left the fleet, isnt it?

Yup, around that time. The last time I flew a TWA 707 SFO-EWR was 1979, and the last time I flew it STL-SFO was 1982. They left the fleet shortly after that. Four engines, no AVOD, loud roar on take-off--the way flying was meant to be, LOL.

Cheers  Smile
International Homo of Mystery
 
DETA737
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:55 pm

Hey Firstclasser

Do you remember the exact date? In March of 1998 TWA still had two daily JFK-TPA flights. You were most likely on Flight 261 which departed JFK at 8:35AM and arrived at TPA at 11:27AM. The flights were operated with 727-200s.

Your return flight TPA-JFK would have either been Flight 120 with an 8:10AM departure time or Flight 304 with a 12:25PM departure time. The first was operated with the MD-82 and the later flight with the 727-200.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:22 pm

Without making a string of byzantine quotations from posts above regarding the NY location of TWA's HQ, suffice to say some of it was right, and some of it marginally right.

I went to the website for the TWA Directors of Customer Services Alumni Association for clarification, because I recalled TWA had offices for a long time on Third Ave. when they owned Hilton International, etc., and found this association had documented the locations of where TWA had its HQ rather well.

Carl Icahn resigned as chairman of TWA, relinquishing all control and interest on January 8, 1993.

Summer, 1931
TWA relocates its headquarters from New York to Kansas City.

1954-1958
Most TWA executive offices are relocated to New York. Training, maintenance and engineering and administrative functions remain in Kansas City.

1989
Carl Icahn moves TWA headquarters from 605 Third Avenue to his own building in Mt. Kisco, New York.

February, 1994
TWA relocates its corporate headquarters from Mt. Kisco, New York, to St. Louis.

Cheers.
International Homo of Mystery
 
kkfla737
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:16 am

The March 1, 1982 TWA timetable:


From EWR:

ORD 4x
MIA 1x
PHX 1x
PIT 1x
STL 1x
PBI 1x


From LGA:

ORD 5x
CVG 1x
CMH 3x
DAY 1x
FLL 2x
FMY 1x
IND 2x
MCI 1x
MIA 1x
PIT 2x
STL 4x
TPA 1x
PBI 1x


From ORD:

ABQ 1x
BOS 3x
COS 1x
CMH 3x
DAY 2x
DEN 2x
MDT 2x
MCI 6x
LAS 1x
LIT 1x
LHR 1x
LAX 1x
EWR 4x
LGA 5x
JFK 1x
PIA 1x
PHL 2x
PHX 2x
PIT 2x
RFD 1x
STL 3x
SFO 1x
DCA 2x
ICT 3x


Pretty amazing- they were very large at both LGA and O'Hare, and yet managed to lose that advantage in subsequent years!
 
moman
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:18 am

I go past the old TWA office every time I'm at STL now. It is now the American Airlines St. Louis operations center.

Moman
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
tommy767
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:54 am

Obviously TWA had a large NYC presence. All of the crew based at JFK staffed LGA and EWR as well.

TWA was a bit bigger at LGA than EWR. Nonetheless, by the end of the 90s they primarily concentrated on Kennedy as their BIG base. At the end of the road, I do remember a nonstop Newark-Cancun flight on an MD-80 in 1999 and 2000. Also I believe TWA operated either a nonstop Newark-London and/or Paris during the 80s.

TWA was a player at EWR, but I have always seen United as a larger carrier at Newark (up until around 2000.) Right now it seems to be dominated by CO. Before CO's reign USAir also had some sort of a base at EWR. Eastern was also very big during the 80s.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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STT757
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:22 pm

"Before CO's reign USAir also had some sort of a base at EWR."

From the late Eighties to mid-Ninties US Air was the second largest carrier at EWR, US Air operated out of the A-2 concourse with several "big Jet" (DC-9, 737s, M80s etc) from EWR to..


Buffalo, Syracuse, Rochester, Dayton, Columbus, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, Richmond, Norfolk etc..

I flew Buffalo-EWR circa '91 on a US Air DC-9.

Us Air closed the large EWR operation somewhere around '93, from then untill 9-11-01 UAL was the second largest carrier at EWR.

Today the second largest carrier is AA.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
tommy767
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:49 pm

STT757: Thanks for the clarification. As a sidenote to your BUF flight in 1991, I think USAir operated EWR-BUF for a long time up until the late 1990s on jets and eventually turboprop. It was interesting how extensive US was at EWR during the early 90s.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
milesrich
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:50 am

Before deregulation, TWA was #2 to AA in JFK/EWR to LAX/SFO nonstop traffic. United was 3rd. TWA was the preferred airline, over Pan Am, to European destinations where they competed. What happened to TWA, through poor fleet planning in the mid to late 70's, and then Carl Icahn, is very sad. They were once a great airline. In fact, the corporate entity owned Canteen Corporation, Hilton International Hotels, and other valuable assets. The Intl routes made money but they lost money domestically, and Odyssy Partners attempted to buy them and split off the airline. That is when Icahn came in, and we all know what happened next.
 
firstclasser
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:47 am

DETA737:

Yes, the AM flight was definately 261. The return one might have been the 12:25 one. I remember returning to JFK at about 2:15. It continued onto Bostion, right?

And, my apologies... the year was 1997 (I was a wee lad at the time, so I had to rely on faulty math skills to remember the year. lol). I would say that I left on either Monday, March 10 or March 17 from JFK (mid-march) and returned on that Friday. If you want to know for the basis of personal knowledge, then I should say that on the trip down, it was a really foggy day, and we departed from 22R(?). Hope that helps you in any way, shape or form.
 
N62NA
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:46 am


Before deregulation, TWA was #2 to AA in JFK/EWR to LAX/SFO nonstop traffic. United was 3rd.

Interesting, so I did some more research. I remember TW having just 1 nonstop flight out of EWR to the West Coast, and that was most always a 707 EWR-LAX. This was during the 70s.

Here's the breakdown from EWR+JFK to LAX (July 1976):

AA/JFK 2x D10, 2x 747
AA/EWR 1x 707

TW/JFK 2x 707 3x L10
TW/EWR 1x 707

UA/JFK 1x 747 1x D10
UA/EWR 1x D10 1x DC8-61

Here's the breakdown from EWR+JFK to SFO (July 1976):

AA/JFK 3x D10
TW/JFK 2x 707 1x 747
UA/JFK 2x D10
UA/EWR 1x 747 (ah, those were the days!)
 
WesternA318
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:18 am

N62NA,

very true, those were the days. I miss TWA like nothing else. I loved being a passenger on them and then in turn, working for them, What a great bunch of people I was working with in SLC, STL and JFK.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
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STT757
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:37 am

Another tid-bit is that I believe that TWA's first Trans-Con service originated from EWR, it was a prop flight which made several stops en-route. I believe this service predates the opening of Idlewild.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:04 am

STT, you're correct. The "Sky Chief" services dating back to the 1930's departed from Newark. One routing flew via Columbus-Kansas City-Albuquerque on the way to Los Angeles, while the other flew via Chicago-Kansas City-Albuquerque. Total travel time was 17 hours.
International Homo of Mystery
 
TUNisia
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:25 am

TWA also served JFK from PHX at one point in the early 90s using 767s. They brough this serve back for a short time with MD80s I think. Also LAS was served from JFK.
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
jmy007
Posts: 540
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:56 am

Hey Moman,

The building you pass on Natrual Birdge was not the HQ. It was the flight training center of TWA, taken over from Ozark, the orginal tenant.

The TWA HQ in Stl was downtown, I believe, near Tucker and Market.
I think  Smile
Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
 
JFernandez
Posts: 190
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RE: TWA New York City Airports

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:33 am

I became a TWA loyalist as a kid in the 80's because they had one of the few nonstop JFK-MAD flights.

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